Texas mother kills children for God

Regarding my earlier discussion wih Vienna...

It now seems she wasn't hearing inexplainable voices - she was interpreting observations about her environment according to her state of mind...

Tyler, Texas - A mother has testified that the first sign that God wanted her to kill her three boys came on Mother's Day weekend when she saw her 14-month-old playing with a toy spear.

...The baby came to her with a rock, and later in the day squeezed a frog, and she believed God was suggesting that she should either stab, stone or strangle her children.​

That sounds more like superstition than religion. Un unstable mind doesn't need religion, or God, to justify their interpretation of reality. They can justify it themselves.

 

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"...The baby came to her with a rock, and later in the day squeezed a frog, and she believed God was suggesting that she should either stab, stone or strangle her children."

Y'know this line sounds like it came straight from a Bible.

Jenyar

Do you claim that your faith is logical?

 

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tiassa,

It is the cornerstone of her legal defense.

It may be the cornerstone of her legal-teams defence. She has not quoted anything (to my knowledge) other than "i've killed my boys".

Power of attorney; opening arguments; statements by her attorney to the court and press. This is what she's pleading.

Where as she said that is what i'm pleading?

And then I go on to directly disarm the "cheap argument" - I just think you're splitting hairs on that one.

You called the title of this thread; "Texas mother kills children for God," yet the only mention of God in the press releases, refer to the fact that she was a christian, and at some stage in the 20 minute phone conversation, she is alledged to have said God told her to kill her boys. After reading up on the case, how do you come to the conclusion that she killed for God?
And why choose the religious forum, when there is nothing religious about it (as yet anywayz).
All you have done, is reinforce negative ideas in negative people.

Because----that's sort of the point from the get-go.

It isn't.
The point from the get-go, is that she killed her sons, in one article and in the other, that she could well be mentally ill. The point about God, comes later when they describe her as a religious woman, and it is alleged that she said God told her to do it.

Jan Ardena.

 

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That's their problem.

In the meantime ... hot off the presses:

 

Jo Jenyar,

J - "That's why Christian ethics aren't the same a biblical ethics. As we respond to new threats and new demands, love does guide us into new territories - but it's the same love that guided the Israelites, and which guided Jesus."

What exactly do you mean here Jenyar? Are you rejecting Biblical ethics?

Allcare.

 

Yo again jenyar dude,

J - "That sounds more like superstition than religion. Un unstable mind doesn't need religion, or God, to justify their interpretation of reality. They can justify it themselves."

Amongst the most common delusions in schizophrenic and psychotic behaviour are religious in nature.

Allcare.

 

I know the Bible quite well, and there are no examples of someone making a superstitious deduction like that. Wherever nature provides "signs" they are described as nothing less than miraculous - any sort of omens, signs or "hints" from nature is equated with divination. In fact, such superstition is seen as nothing less than lack of faith and idolatry.

Deuteronomy 18
Detestable Practices
9 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

Rambam lists the different kinds of magical and superstitious practices that are prohibited under the general category of the laws (halakah) forbidding idol-worship because of the conceptual similarity between the two. The prohibited actions are:
Nahash - Signs & Omens.
Kosem ? The Use of Oracles to Tell the Future, Divining.
Meonein ? Using astrology to fix Auspicious Times, Horoscopes.
Hovver ? The Use of Magical Spells and Incantations
Doresh El Hametim - Inquiring of the dead.
Ov and Yidoni, Divination.
Mekhashef - Sorcery, Performing 'black' magic.

A very common superstitious and forbidden practice is for a person to take mundane events that occur and make them into magical signs to help him or her decide which decisions to make in life. For no rational reason a linkage is placed between a previous occurrence and a future one. Instead of running ones life according to the Torah and reason a person runs it according to arbitrary omens. This is classic superstition.

(Superstition and Magic)​

Yes, Vienna, my faith is logical - but I can see you are aware that logic by itself is insufficient, and unfounded logic even dangerous, to justify actions with. My faith is founded on a history of faith and revelation, culminating in Christ's resurrection and recorded in the Bible - not momentary flashes of insight or so-called "enlightenment". And like any form of knowledge it requires responsible study and understanding.

You might claim the premises of my faith are illogical (such as believing in God's existence), but that's no more dangerous than believing in, say, peace. Because some people think peace only comes through war and conflict, while others think it comes through love and understanding. Ignorance is the main problem.

The irresponsible use of ideas (however noble) and reason (however logical) is always dangerous, wherever your justification lies - whether seen or unseen, real or imagined.

PS. I'm not rejecting Biblical ethics - I'm applying it.

 

tiassa,

that's their problem.

Helped by you.

In the meantime ... hot off the presses....

Tell me something.
What does this thread have to do with religion?

Jan Ardena.

 

OOooooh im speechless too. Why, 1 person in 2 billion christians actually killed for God. Amazing eh?

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tiassa, isnt good for you to see a non-muslim mother that is as sick is this muslim mother below?

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In the name of God.

 

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In the name of God.

 

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In the name of God.

Christianity: 1 (of 2 billion)

Islam: 4 (of 1.2 billion)

Who is sicker than who?

 

The very question you're complaining about.

Hey, take a look at Dr. No here. Would you prefer that he never face his demons?

They've gotta deal with it sometime, Jan. Hiding won't help anyone.

 

Ya said it, sweetheart. The Demons of Islam can no longer remain hidden. Thanks to people like me, eh?

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tiassa,

The very question you're complaining about.

I'm not complaining, i'm questioning, and you have not answered my question. Why is this thread in a religion forum?
Does the word "god" when put into a sentence, automatically transform the subject into religion?

Hey, take a look at Dr. No here. Would you prefer that he never face his demons?


I'm not quite sure what point Dr. No is trying to prove here, i see children with blood coming from their head.
Maybe he should point out the explanation in the Qur'an, then his point can be generally understood.

They've gotta deal with it sometime, Jan. Hiding won't help anyone.

What exactly do they have to deal with, and who is hiding??

Jan Ardena.

 

My point?

Why make an issue of one unique atrocity by an insane christian when similar atrocities are much more common in their own islamic religion?

 

Are all paradigms the same? Religious? Political? Social?

Obviously not. You'll notice that there is a major vein within this thread struggling to pick apart the pieces of religous faith and mental illness that is, unfortunately, harder to pick out with the Special Olympics going on at the same time.

When we pause to consider that religions touch people in a way that no other paradigm can--all else can become subordinate to the necessities of the soul--it is fair to wonder if the effects of a religious paradigm can inflame existing problems within a person to a different degree than other ideas.

If something so simple as "heavy metal" or "rap" can be examined for its role in people's conduct, why not their faith? Would those kids in the infamous 1980s lawsuits have killed themselves if they were listening to Stryper instead of Judas Priest? Bananarama instead of Ozzy Osbourne? It's a fair question to a certain degree; what nobody could understand at the time was that the music didn't excuse the crappy parenting. (e.g. - "You're both drunk, you fight all the time, you have no money, you're physically violent ... what's making your kid miserable? It must be the music.")

In the discussions of Apocrypha and heresy in Christianity, one will come across the odd point of the Pauline evangelization. Most think about it in terms such as we find in Jenyar's response to my invocation of Paul, but we see that some people do realize: Here is a man vital to the faith whose experience started with a hallucination (vision). Paul gets a certain credibility on faith not awarded elsewhere.

I see all sorts of symbolism in the world. But none of it's doctrinally bound. And I'm inclined by experience to bet against visions and divine revelation. So if I look at my world, no I'm most likely not going to think God is at any point telling me to kill my children. But if I'm already unstable enough, and ensconced in a religious paradigm that venerates visions and revelation, and operating from a position of "Original Sin" which leaves me forever deficient of the standard I've adopted . . . .

If her obsession was "stamp collecting," would Madonna Ciccione have spoken to her from a St. Kitts & Nevis postage stamp?

It's hard to say. There are people in the world for whom yes, Madonna would tell them to kill their children. But is this woman one of them, or was her condition exacerbated by her faith?

It's happened in America before, inasmuch as there's some point in history that an entire town came apart after they painted themselves into a corner at the intersection of faith and conscience. I'll dig up the reference later.

And what of the faith of those around her? Everybody seems to acknowledge there's something amiss with this woman, but it will be revealing, in the long run, to find out what was and wasn't done on her behalf that might have stopped this from happening.

There are some people I've known who would say "Hallelujah" about someone getting revelations and never see the ugly punchline coming.

And in identifying the separation that exists between religion and the acts of the religious, we can only increase understanding.

You seem worried about a number of bigots. How ever will they resolve their issues if they never face them?

You wrote:

O! ye of little faith. Is the solution, then, to leave the negative folks with their negative ideas?

If I could wave a fire wand and shout, "Abracadabra!" and make it happen in a puff of logic and compassion, I would. But I can't, and these things take time. Lifetimes, in some cases. And all along the way, there will be someone to say that you're only reinforcing negativity.

That might be the best you can do. But ....

Writing the attack off to Ba'al, as the one website did, doesn't help anyone. It might make a few self-righteous idiots feel better about themselves, but it doesn't actually help anyone in any real sense. Christians, who know their faith, will have certain insights to any possible relationships between faith and deed.

So hey ... let's make a new question out of it, just to satisfy you:

• What is the responsibility of a religious community to the mental health of its congregations, and therefore the overall health of its communities and neighbors?

As this case goes along, we'll find out more and more about what "warning signs" may have existed. That will guide the discussion to a certain degree. But this story isn't finished playing out yet, and it's not yet time to point fingers and say, "This or that Christian blew it."

The connection is that a religious paradigm may have exacerbated mental illness. Is the method and degree of exacerbation unique to this paradigm, or to religious paradigms in general?

The questions present themselves. It's all a matter of not letting the bigots set the terms.