Texas mother kills children for God

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Tiassa, Mar 30, 2004.

  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Really, I've ... I've argued with myself about the title. I thought about calling this topic, "Another One," or, "(Insert Title Here)." Whatever; the CNN headline is certainly captivating.

    • CNN.com. "Attorney: Woman thought God told her to kill sons." March 29, 2004. See http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/03/29/children.slain/
    • Associated Press. "Texas Woman Who Stoned Sons Set for Trial." San Jose Mercury News, March 28, 2004. See http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/8299238.htm

    Some excerpts:
    I don't know, really, where to begin.

    How about with some inward irony? If you go back through the history of my posts, there was a time a few years ago when "clean up your own damn house first" was something I used to tell Christians who dared complain about people or groups who offended their sensibilities. Quite obviously, this isn't what I meant. I was struck by that phrase in the CNN article.

    How about the cheap argument? Within religions, these things happen from time to time, and we must consider society's obligation unto itself inasmuch as how many is too many?

    Of course, that argument holds religions in a vacuum, and ignores such ideas as the inherent diversity of humanity; for instance, I've argued of sex crimes that even if we were to "educate rape out of society," so that we didn't have 70,000 rapes on college campuses each year, didn't have spousal sexual abuse, didn't have rape as a form of machismo, we would still have to endure a certain amount of deviation.

    So we can't fairly hold "Christians" accountable; after all, Christians are mortified:
    (Note: Deferring to administrative request that avatars not be animated, I am presently unsure about inserting an animated smiley here, and one taken from another site at that. Thus, I have omitted the banging of my head against a brick wall.)

    At any rate ... what was I saying? Oh, yeah ... something about how we shouldn't get paranoid about a religion based on such occasional events.

    Um ... yeah ....

    At any rate, if we look past the BDN ... insanity ... er ... I'll find a better Christian response eventually.


    I suppose the question really is whether or not this would have happened were she Muslim, Hindu, atheist, or otherwise not Christian?

    A last couple links:

    • Tyler Morning Telegraph. "Case could add fuel to insanity debate." March 27, 2004. See http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1994&dept_id=341384&newsid=11194214&PAG=461&rfi=9
    • San Antonio Express News. "Moms who kill often suffer from psychotic depression." May 13, 2003. See http://www.religionnewsblog.com/archives/00003350.html
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  3. Xevious Truth Beyond Logic Registered Senior Member

    Were she a seccularist, she would claim she had a rational explanation. Were she Muslem, it would be the will of Allah. Were she Buddist, it was the wisdom of Buddah. If she was a Satanist... well you get the idea.

    It's easy for people to blame a persons religion for their actions. Many Atheists I know and indeed, some Sciforms members do it all the time. What many often miss is that the Bible says that God created us with the free will control ourselves. This answers two questions about the Christian concept of God.

    1) Why does God allow bad things to happen?
    2) Why do some Christians do things contrary to what they profess?

    When the concept of free will is considered and that God created us to have such, then it is also accepted that God leaves it for us to be accountable for our actions. Indeed, the concept of judgement before God for the actions someone took in ones life is a central theme behind the Rapture described in the book of Revelations.

    Religion isn't the problem, it is the decisions of it's practicioners which are in cases like this one.
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  5. Greco Registered Senior Member

    Tiassa I get so angry when I hear about some insane person commiting a crime and then put on trial. It is outrageous that todays' goverment refuses to help mentaly sick people but would rather spend 50k a year incarcerating them for some crime they committed for God or Satan.

    If anything bothers me about US is the apathy and inaction towards mentally sick people. When my wife was having problems I desperately sought help for her only to be thwarted time after time by the system. Even though there were many sympathisers all I got was lip service about the inadequate shape of our mental health system. It's a moral disgrace.
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  7. Proud_Muslim Shield of Islam Registered Senior Member

    Thank you so much Tiassa for your post, I needed your links so much, some christian asses need to be kicked !!

    The disgusting thing is that Bible Doctrine News website tried to explain the murder by quoting from the bible:

    http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=Jeremiah 7:31;19:4-6;32:35-36&language=english&version=NASB


    INCREADIBLE !! Stoning for Jesus !!

    Now, christians will call this woman insane, if Muslim committed such horrible crime, they will blame ISLAM for it !!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    You never cease from amazing me with you SPOT ON posts !! ALLAH BLESS YOU.
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2004
  8. crazymikey Open-minded Scientist Registered Senior Member

    Why am I not surprised, PM's enjoying this? Honestly, this forum, is not the intelligent community it professes to be.
  9. Proud_Muslim Shield of Islam Registered Senior Member

    Dont divert the topic, if you dont like it here, you can leave, no one is forcing you to stay.

    Now back to the topic, shall we blame CHRISTIANITY as a whole for the murder of these innocent childern ?????

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  10. crazymikey Open-minded Scientist Registered Senior Member

    PM, my hypocritical child. How can you point a finger on others, when your entire religion is built on lies, tyranny, deceit, murder, maim, fanatacism, contradictions and forced conversions. Your religion is literally built over the dead bodies of millions of innocent men, women and children. It surprises me, even knowing this, you support this inhumane religion. You are inhumane yourself, then?
  11. Vienna Registered Senior Member

    No - the bitch was mentally unstable - just like you are PM for believing she killed her kids for religion.
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2004
  12. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

    I believe PM's point is that people are quick to blame Islam for the acts of Islamic terrorists, while this was obviously a Christian committing "Christian terrorism".
  13. crazymikey Open-minded Scientist Registered Senior Member

    Duh, is it, Jenyar?

    His point, or rather lack of point is, to bury the illls of Islam, by showing us the ills of Christianity. Which, proves Christianity has ills too, but it does not disprove the ills of Islam. In other words, it's hypocrisy.
  14. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

    I was addressing Vienna's comment.

    What bothers me is that this woman seems to live in a community, Christian or otherwise, who let that kind of mentality go unaddressed an unnoticed.

    Did nobody know her? Do they share her apocalyptic worldview? Did she forget that God supplied a replacement for Isaac - that Jesus died so that nobody has to?
  15. Vienna Registered Senior Member

    Did she forget who supplied what for who????

    She was too busy killing her kids dammit,

    Instability is in its highest when you put your life and actions in something you can't see, can't touch, can't hear and doesn't exist.

    "I killed my kids for the sake of the jolly green giant"

    Religion is not funny. it's fucking dangerous!
  16. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

    Such as committing yourself to world peace?
  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    As much as I might mock that bit about Ba'al, I'm amazed at the things some Christians will write off to the Devil. It might be that folks let their myths cloud their objectivity.

    When I read of her husband, a supporting husband, with his head in his hands as the 911 tape is played, I wonder if part of the crushing emotion isn't the realization that he missed perhaps several opportunities to stop this from happening. He's had some time to think about it, and some time to suffer with it.
    I hope you don't find sarcastic the note that many faithful throughout history have forgotten such things and more.

    Remember that it doesn't have to be entirely literal inasmuch as it could be that beyond Isaac, the Crucifixion, or others she recalled the bit about leaving your family and transposed the bloody tales of the Scriptures into her apparently-damaged conscience.

    Additionally, we must remember that God works in mysterious ways. If I taught in a Christian school, I would assign my students to argue how such a thing could be God's will.

    Sick people aside, I just have a hard time with the idea of God's Will. Sometimes it makes me want to find God's nutsack and pinch it with His curling iron. I know that sounds like humor, but sometimes I think condemnation would be worth it for the opportunity to stand in front of God and tell Him a few Things He Obviously Dosen't Realize.
  18. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

    I sympathise with your reservations about people who live in a spiritual world at the cost of the physical. However, cliché's like "God works in mysterious ways" and "the devil made me do it" hardly illuminate God's will. People attribute things to "God's will" at will, which might explain its objectionability.

    The simple truth is that everything that happens is not God's will. That's just the wrong logical conclusion from "God can make everything, good or bad, work towards his will". Not everything a believer does is automatically God's will, and not everything an atheist does is automatically against his will.

    It follows that what is really damaging (or damaged) is our worldview. You don't "leave" or disagree with family by killing them; you don't transpose bloody tales of survival and conflict into your living room. Unless you are in dire need of help. We need cultural norms to regulate behaviour. God did not subject us to authority so that we can overrule it at will - especially not in His name.

    On my part, I object to the notion that 'since all believers are in need of a mental reality check, all mental degeneracy can be attributed to believing in God'. That's a fallacy and you know it.
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2004
  19. Vienna Registered Senior Member

    There's nothing wrong with that.

    It is a curious thing that every creed promises a paradise which will be absolutely uninhabitable for anyone of civilized taste.
  20. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

    Even though you can't see it, can't touch it, can't hear it and it doesn't exist?

    What's more curious to me is that people will sympathize with those who disturb the peace rather than those who work towards it. It probably has to do with that "civilized taste", if you look at the example of civilization set by the Romans.

    2 Tim 3
    But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God -- having a form of godliness but denying its power.
  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Re: World Peace

    Pursuing something that can theoretically be accomplished--e.g. world peace--is considerably different from pursuing something that by nature cannot be known.

    World peace may not exist, but I can certainly feel peace. I don't touch peace. Peace touches me.
  22. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

    Well, this is an interesting statement. Has world peace ever been known? We only "know" it by its principles - it's laws and requirements. We "know" that if everyone obeyed what one person who experienced of "peace", it is theoretically possible. So we promote those principles we feel will advance peace, even though we can't imagine what it will look like when we actually get there. After all, we're not trying to accomplish "God", only His will.

    I propose that we can know God likewise. After all, what prevents us from knowing Him if He makes himself known - even if it's only in ways that promotes His will, and not ours?
    Not so different from God then, is it? I know He exists because I can attest to everything He stands for in my life. I know love, which isn't all too defined a concept either. Why should justice, or mercy, or knowledge, or any of God's qualities be any different? I know God through what touches me - what appeals to me, even while my position is far removed from it. Which is where Christ comes in, but that's another topic.
  23. Bells Staff Member

    You're right Tiassa, where does one even begin. I read through those links you provided and... well.. I'm left speechless. BDM are, to say the least, a bunch of freaks.

    I want to find this woman insane but somehow I cannot. The fact that she rang 911 after committing the act and telling them that she's killed her children and done badly to the third child (because he didn't die) shows to me a mind that was aware of her actions before, during and after the act. Plain and simple, the woman is a murderer. She slaughtered her own children. It becomes a religious issue because she stated that God told her to do it. Now honestly, lets think about this now. For the believers of God out there, if you hear a voice in your head telling you to kill your children, you would not think that voice to be God now would you? I hear such a voice in my head and I'm asking for a referral to the local psychiatrist.

    How is it possible that one becomes so entrenched and so enamoured with their religious beliefs or their belief in God that they could actually commit such an act in the name of God? I try to think about it and I keep thinking to myself, my kids are mine, if God ever gave me such an order or choice, God be damned. He'd have to kill me first before I'd do such a thing. This woman was a fundamentalist of the worse sort. Is she a terrorist? In a way yes. She committed a henious act in the name of her God and her sole regret afterwards when she rang the police was that she failed in her quest as the youngest child had survived her attack. A terrorist kills people and feels regret that some got away or survived. Some terrorists also kill in the name of God. All are murderers at the end of the day.

    I had a chat with my mother, who is a strict catholic, and I asked her if she'd ever kill me if God ordered her to and her reply was to look at me as though I'd lost my mind and she told me no. That if God asked her to do such a thing then she'd stop believing in God then and there. I left afterwards feeling ashamed at myself for even asking her that question. Now I compare that to Mrs Laney. She was the mother of three young children. She was meant to be their protector and provider. And I think to myself, if God did in fact tell her to do this, how could she listen? If I were ever to have children, they'd come first, no questions asked. God would not even factor into that equation. If he asked me to commit such an act, the answer would be no. I wouldn't care who it was that told me to do it, the answer would be no. Laney is not insane, she was just lost in her religion to such an extent that she failed to recognise that her children should always come first in everything. Such fanatacism is always dangerous and she is yet another prime example of how one's beliefs can end up being very bad.

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