Technocratic Solutions for Convicts & Prisoners.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by ElectricFetus, Mar 5, 2010.

?

State which options you approve of:

  1. Harvesting organs for captial punshments.

    2 vote(s)
    28.6%
  2. Slave labor of prisioners.

    2 vote(s)
    28.6%
  3. Medical experimention on and medically "curing" convicts of their violent/sexual/addictive behavior.

    2 vote(s)
    28.6%
  4. I approve of only some of these options (check off the ones you approve of)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. I approve of none of these options.

    4 vote(s)
    57.1%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,523
    I'm all for these practices.

    1. Capital punishment should be via organ removal for prisoners that are viable donors. If surgans can't be found to break the hypotcratic oath then the convict should be euthanized with nitrogen gas (lack of oxygen) while tied down to the operating table, then when declared dead the surgeons can go ahead and remove the organs. One executed murder could save at least 7 lives with the critical organs alone.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJkpDNwM0lk

    2. Prisoners should continue to work for society by doing slave labor. With moder technology it would be possible to put on GPS tracking & Electroshock collars/leg claps so the prisoners could work even in areas without physical containment. Off course the electroshock collars/claps this might violate some prisoner treatment ethics laws, so those laws will need to be replied.

    3. I greatly advocate medical experiments on prisoners, voluntary for reduced sentences for regular convicts and involuntary for those on death row. Ideally the development of cybernetic treatments in which arrays of electrodes could be inserted into the brains of any harden violent offender, turned on and instantly convert them into harmless lovable hard working living Buddhas would be the ideal goal. If such a treatment was developed and testing reveals equal or lower crimes rates then the general population I would require all types of criminals the treatment has been proven effective on to undergo these cybernetic lobotomies instead of prison terms. Why put them in prison if they can be "cured" and be render equally or even less likely to commit crimes then the general population? If you demand punishment/justices/revenge I would think erasing a persons personality and replacing it with a publically sanction one is fitting punishment even for a murder as it could be interpreted as executing without actually killing the body or even the mind, just the killing or imprisoning the "soul". If they are later found wrongfully convicted the implants can be deactivated, this greatly reduces the harm caused by wrongful imprisonment and executions. Of course a variety of ethics laws would need to be changed to even allow testing and development for this let alone mass implementation.
     
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  3. kororoti Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    252
    You do realize, don't you, that most of this goes against the US Constitutional requirement against "cruel and unusual punishment" don't you?

    No objection to this, so long as the convict is dead before harvesting begins. Brain death is death.

    As long as the electroshock feature of the collars is only used on inmates who are attempting escape, I don't see how any treatment complaints would emerge. The collars might be expensive to produce, though. Are you sure the value of the inmates' unskilled labor would exceed the cost of making, and maintaining, their collars?


    Here's the point at which I think you've gone crazy. If a person's behavior ever reaches the point where cybernetic lobotomies are necessary in order to prevent them from hurting others..... wouldn't it be more expedient simply to kill them? You're advocating a situation that is probably worse than death because the person isn't even free to think like they want. At least if you lock them in a cage all their life, they can think freely in that cell.
     
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  5. Alien Cockroach Banned Banned

    Messages:
    886
    Well, I think that one possible interpretation of the penal system would be that, by putting people in prison, they are being excluded from human society. Well, if that is the case, then an inmate should receive at least the benefits that we would accord to an animal of equal or almost equal rank in evolutionary development.

    http://www1.voanews.com/english/new...cal-Experiments-on-Chimpanzees--84496552.html

    We should not do things to any member of our species that we would not do to a chimpanzee. This is about being consistent.
     
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  7. Pinwheel Banned Banned

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    2,424
    Man, I sure hope not to be innocent and wrongly improsoned under any of those circumstances.
     
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    28,952
    That's more power than any government should be allowed.

    btw: There was a time when some State governments in the old Confederacy had such powers, over prisoners - during the Jim Crow days, up into the 1960s, and some observe into more recent times in places like the Angola, Louisiana penitentiary.

    They used them primarily on black prisoners, of course - you can follow the labor needs of United Steel's operations in early 1900s Alabama by looking at the arrest records of black men for crimes like "vagrancy".
     
  9. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,523
    I think I mentioned all of this would require repealing laws, yes.

    Should not take long under nitrogen asphyxiation.

    We already have leg claps that do the GPS tracking, adding a shocker with it would not increase the price much more. Placement around the neck would make it harder for the convict to remove the device with cutting instruments

    I don't think you see the full range of applications here. Lets say a man is convicted for aggravated assault, say he beat his wife horribly, we insert a few electrodes into his brain, significantly inhibit his ability to get angry, maybe up his sense of empathy and affection for others and reduce his sex drive for good measure and while we are at it lets enhance his work ethic from 9 to 5 like he was on amphetamines. The man is now twice as productive as he use to be and would not even hurt a fly, heck he can even continue his marriage with his recovering wife, love and respect her like he never did before and be a great father to his kids. I would say that is a far more human and beneficial solution than killing him, which by the way the present law would not do, he would simply be put in prison for a few years, costing thousands of tax payer dollars a year, make his injured single ex-wife have to struggle to make ends meet and take care of the kids all alone, probably also taking out tax dollars in welfare, and in the end what comes out of the prison is likely to be a hardened thug and only become a further detriment to society.

    Metaphysically you are right, he has been striped of free will, but its unlikely he will find it painful, distressing or depressing, the electrodes won't allow him to get depressed or distressed about lacking free will. You might think that is worse then death but if it was applied to you you would likely would find it very pleasant indeed.
     
  10. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,523
    I disagree, this is not far beyond the powers already granted to many democratic governments. As for abuses, that a problem of preventing the system from being abused, it does not run in conflict with undergoing medical experiments in order to benefit all of man kind, in fact I think it might be possible to get criminals to volunteer for such medical experiments in trade for reduced sentenced and probation, I don't see how any can complain if they volunteer.

    A chimp that has hurt no one of coursed does not deserve to be experimented on, A person that has hurt others we do a variety of things on that we would often call abuse of animals if that person was an animal. I don't think we can generalize the treatment of all people considering that some people need specific treatment in order to protect other people!
     
  11. desi Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,616
    The former Soviet Union and China are right in line with your line of thinking. Just be sure you don't get accused by the wrong people of crimes against the people or you might find yourself helping those on donor lists.
     
  12. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,523
    Just because the soviets and china did/do a variety of wrongs does not mean this is wrong to.
     
  13. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,849
    Fascist envy?

    The lesson here is that everyone, to some degree, wants to be a Nazi, and some will put more effort than others into finding a way to justify themselves.
     
  14. Zephyr Humans are ONE Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,371
    These punishments may not sound bad if you assume the people punished are always guilty, but that's an extremely dangerous assumption.

    How many people on death row were later found innocent?

    By increasing the utility that can be derived from prisoners, e.g. by using them as slave labor, you encourage the practice of imprisoning people for its own sake. If there are not enough criminals, more will be manufactured.

    "Sir, the slaves are dying too fast. The monorail will never be completed on time!"
    "Upload some mp3s to bittorrent and arrest anyone who looks at the link."
    "Sir, you're a genius!"
    "I know. Mwahaha!"
     
  15. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,523
    To some degree even you are a nazi, by your generalization.
     
  16. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,523
    If we still kill them but use their organs then at least some good came out of that failure of justice. Of course better would be not the kill anyone at all and merely "cure" "criminals" cybernetically, if the patients is found innocents afterwards, its just a matter of turning off the implants.

    With our present supply of illegal immigrants it would always be cheaper to get migrant workers then more prisoner slaves. Mind you I suggesting the prisoners slaves be treated well, better then private employers treat migrant works for sure.
     
  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,849
    Brilliance

    You deserve a Nobel Prize for that brilliant logic.

    Of course I have my fascist side. But unlike many other people I've encountered, both here and out in the real world, I strive to keep it in check instead of struggle to find ways to justify it and bring it to bear in the real world.
     
  18. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,523
    I just think your generalizing too much. Your just slapping the abused term "nazi" on a subject that you find morally reprehensible instead of actually describing in detail what you think is wrong with it, which is really suprising coming from you!

    I don't see how my proposals are nazi-esque. For example I don't think nazis would have choose cybernetic personality correction over murdering everyone that they deemed sub-human. The nazis did not provide adequate food, health and facilities for their prisoners as the nazis intent was to kill them off anyways, I would require adequate facilities and educations for the incarcerated so they can be functional members of society when they are released, and so they can provide some employment benefit while incarcerated. I also seriously doubt the nazis would have wanted to put sub-human organs in their perfect Aryan bodies. The Nazis partook in frivolous medical experiments of no actually scientific or technological value other then in how to better kill and torture people! I'm talking about medical experimentation for the lofty goal of ending all criminal recidivism, for minimizing the harm to the wrongly convicted, and about ending the need for prisons and capital punishment altogether! And at the very least, for now if we are going to kill people why can't we harvest their organs? We already have chains gangs in use today! Might as well modernizing them so they all aren't lugging around heavy chains!
     
  19. draqon Banned Banned

    Messages:
    35,006
    To make it public I believe all those choice are inhuman and approve not of any.
     
  20. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,523
    See even Tiassa even draqon has more dignity then you in this instances, although he did not explain how or why he thinks the choices are inhuman.
     
  21. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,529
    Tiassa, your unrelenting defense of all men is noble, but still foolish. We do not have an obligation to show civility to the uncivil, nor mercy to the merciless. They are ruthless to society, and so too shall they be treated with ruthlessness. That is only fair. And fairness is righteous.


    What good shall come of their incarceration? None. Thus the best choice is to use them for something useful, like science or organ harvesting.
     
  22. shichimenshyo Caught in the machine Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,110
    I laughed when I saw what was proposed in this thread, then I sighed when I realized it wasn't a joke.
     
  23. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,529
    I like his ideas.


    Why not use this opportunity to advance science? Or get more organs, for people in need?

    Are you opposed to progress?
     

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