Talking About What Martial Arts Styles...........

Let's "talk" about the different "arts". There are many different styles to "fight" with and defend yourself.

Martial arts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The martial arts are codified systems and traditions of combat practices. They are practiced for a variety of reasons, including self-defense, competition, physical ...
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_arts

And

Hybrid martial arts (also known as hybrid fighting systems or sometimes freestyle fighting) refer to martial arts or fighting systems that incorporate techniques and theories from several particular martial arts. While numerous martial arts borrow or adapt from other arts and to some extent could be considered hybrids, a hybrid martial art emphasizes its disparate origins.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_martial_arts

I am under the assumption that..
Krav Maga, and Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do
Are the two best to learn for self defense and fighting. Of course you could combine many forms. But I have heard you learn one or both of those you will know all you need. Do you agree?
What I wish to talk about is the different styles. And what is best to learn. The easiest, and fastest to begin with. And why your feelings are the way they are for your choice..

 

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I'm to fricking old to fight so I just carry this with me so that whenever a fight starts, I'll end up the winner.

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I would rather see another day. Old or not. That is not the violence we need this day in age. Firepower is for recreation and hunting. And besides what happens when you are out of ammo?

 

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I have a good friend who is an expert in Hapkido. He's actually defended himself and two women from an attack by two homeless men. Practically killed one of them, but was left with a broken jaw after one of them threw a chunk of concrete. He can pick locks, escape from handcuffs, straitjackets, and being tied up, that wasn't Hapkido just something useful he picked up. But he might have trained way too hard, and now he needs artificial hip joints.

 

Rather than a specific art, HOW you train is the most important thing. You can take Krav Maga and JKD for ten years but if all you do is forms and drills with compliant foes all the time your art is worthless. If you train and practice with others who are trying to hit you in the face, take you down, fight back (i.e. resisting opponents) that is good training. A good striking base (boxing) plus some wrestling, judo, jits type ground work practiced against resisting opponents will serve you much better than going with a traditional MA and learning how to dance in rhythm with forms.

If you are interested in self defense (depending on your location of course) a firearm should be part of your training regimen as well.

 

It rather depends on who you are, how you're built and what you're comfortable with.
Every style has strengths and weaknesses, and some of the more classical ones may be far more limited than other, more adaptive styles.
But as it has oft been said, there are many paths up the mountain, but only one sky to see from the top.

I'm not sure any one style can teach you everything you need, unless it's a style that deliberately is a hybrid of many that also keeps adapting.
And it also depends on what you want to learn - what your goal is: is it to enter competition, is it merely to defend yourself, is it to look flashy, or just for exercise?
The best form of defence is running away, and unless you practice under stress conditions then all a martial art can do is really give you a few seconds of composure before it all breaks down.

Being "easy" or "fast" is a matter of subjectivity... some styles may teach you things quickly, get you going up the grading system quickly, but much of that will be to hook the person in and to try to keep them, as many styles are run as professional organisations - so they need to make money.
What will be best for you will depend on your physique, your purpose for learning, your intentions, your demeanour, and without question the effort you put in, as well as the quality of the instruction.

From personal experience there are some good karate styles, not necessarily as pure fighting methods, but to help develop a good body structure (e.g. how to punch effectively), form, and above all a basic comprehension of moves that are copied/reinterpreted in many other styles. It's also good exercise, but if you want something more effective in real situations then I wouldn't recommend - or only as part of a suite of styles.
But as stated earlier, and by the person above, if you want to be effective in real situations then you do need to practice in conditions as close to real as possible - not just in sparring with someone doing the same style, but in exercises that really put you in stressful positions - such as facing multiple opponents again and again, from cornered positions - so you can get used to the mental and physical effect it can have etc. Of course do it in an otherwise safe environment - there are some great groups out there that do this sort of thing, that are not specific to a martial art.

 

Have you looked at the martial arts group here on sci-forums? I started training in martial art when I was 12 years old. I you want to know what I've done you can look at some of the posts on that group.

Personally I mistrust a lot of the Krav Maga self defence things I've seen, some of the stuff might work on civilians to some degree, but not on a trained fighter. The same can be said for Jeet Kune Do, because it takes its assumptions that an attackers is going to behave in a certain way. These assumptions exist in stand-up traditional styles like Kung Fu, Taekwondo and traditional Karate.

From my experience the most effective martial arts styles are Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Freestyle Wrestling and Judo for grappling.
Boxing, Muay Thai, Kyokushin kaikan (without the dumb no head punching rule) and Savate, are most the effective stand up styles.

But a stand up fighter with no experience of grappling stands little chance against a professional grappler.
Almost all Cage fighters have a background in at least one of these grappling and stand up styles if not more. That's why it's called Mixed Martial Arts.

 

In my humble opinion there is likely no single "best" style of martial art. The "best" style for any individual depends entirely on what that person wants to get out of it.

I came through the ranks of traditional Taekwondo as taught by General Choi in the original incarnation. I did not go real far in the more gymnastic later style of TKD that was designed for the Olympics. I am 62 years old, have been practicing TKD for 40 years now, achieved 1st Dan in 1985. My specialties were power breaking techniques, kick boxing and take-downs. I no longer have any school affiliation, but do daily practice of the discipline, all of my kata/forms/patterns, bag work and specific techniques.

As a person approaching senior citizen status, my concern is not being able to best a professional MMA or Brazilian Ju - Jitsu fighter, though Helio Gracie was one of my idols as was Bruce Lee. I also very much appreciate Wing Chun and her historic role in preserving the knowledge of Shaolin when the temple was razed. Bodhidharma taught us that one does not need another person to practice the arts to profit, spending those many years in a cave by himself doing yoga and Kung Fu. A lesson well reinforced by Moyamoto Musashi later on. Jeet Kun Do made some major updates/improvements on Wing Chun Gung Fu. I much appreciate the contributions of Ip Man and his student Bruce Lee.

If you practice 100 punches every day you will be much more able to punch than someone who does not, even if you just use a bag or the air. You build fast twitch muscle fibers, shorten your reaction time and become so used to punching that it is reflexive when needed. The same is true for any moves/motions/techniques within your patterns. If you practice your patterns religiously you constantly improve your ability to move yourself freely in 3 - space. If you practice being observant, paying attention to your surroundings all of the time you will not be taken by surprise by an assailant. If you practice strikes you can then perform same effectively with focus and power, even if you are old, handicapped, a child or a small woman. You better retain your balance as you age as well as your muscularity and bone density. Clarity of mind, overall physical and mental fitness, good balance, short reaction time and enhanced powers of observation are benefits available through many of the martial arts if you practice them religiously.

Yes, there is cost and benefit. That is how things are in this world. If you practice regular power strikes you accrue micro - fractures in the effected bone structures. Your body repairs those with a denser bone tissue so your bones get stronger as you progress. While that is beneficial in terms of dealing proactively with osteoporosis, you also tend to get osteoarthritis in the joints in those bone structures and that hurts. I got lots of self confidence from breaking through concrete blocks and pine boards, but I still pay for that now with pain. I also still break the boards. I carry the pain and tolerate it so I am less affected now when I am injured. Having been punched and kicked, facing an opponent intent on doing that to me would not shock me and a very many amateur street fighters depend heavily on shock to win quickly and easily.

While there are many 'MacDojos' around that will sell you a black belt in some 'style' or another, those do not offer the same benefits. You can only get back out in proportion to what you put in. A professional - grade MMA or grappler is not going to pick a fight with you on the street, though an untrained punk will.

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I also have and carry firearms when necessary, though the only weapons I have actually had to use are a stunner and pepper spray. Those were on aggressive dogs and deer. (Territorial white tail bucks during rut). One of the more valuable lessons I learned in MA was how not to be a target and to stay out of trouble.

 

I think before the advent of the Ultimate Fighting Chairmanships in 1994, traditional martial arts had a almost mythological cultist aura around them, Karate, Kung Fu and Taekwondo suffered and in some cases continues to suffer from this delusion.

I presently train in Brazilian JuiJitsu, in the past I have done Choy Lee Fut Kung Fu, Judo, Karate and Boxing. I got a 4th Dan in Aikido and I’ve also done Shinto Ryu Kenjitsu.
I started MA training when I was 12 years old and have been doing one form of martial arts or another ever since and I'm 48 years old now.

I’ve been state champion in Brazilian JuiJitsu 3 times and was a Pan pacific silver medallist. And I've been in Cage fights.
I have a very low opinion of Kata outside of weapons training with live weapons, and I think punching air as a training aid is a waste of time. The only real way to learn how to fight is to actually spar.

My issue with that statement is that someone can do any number of things for philosophical reasons, but the original poster was seeking advise from people with actual experience of having to defend themselves. I am not suggesting that necessary someone would have to defend themselves against a protagonist who is skilful at Mixed Martial Arts, only that it's delusional to confront even a untrained muscle head or group of lowlifes with experience of only Wing Chun Kung Fu (I sparred against some of these guys it's a joke) or some bullshit you learned in a chain-store McDojo. If you do, you're going to get beat up, it's as simple as that.

My advise to anyone looking for an effective means of self defence and not wanting to resort to a hand gun or taser should watch the 1st 3 instalments of UFC and find out exactly why Fred Ettish ended up bleeding all over the canvas in foetal position. And why a 10 Dan Grandmaster got his ass handed to him in record time. Watch all the style vs style videos on youtube and make an informed choice.

Yes and doing half an hour of Zumba everyday would have almost the same effect but it won't make you a good fighter. Bruce Lee said boards don't hit back, neither do bags or Yoga teachers.
The only way to really learn how to fight is to actually fight with other people. A good martial arts class is mostly divided up into demonstrating and practising technique with a partner and sparing.

Kata (detailed choreographed patterns of movements practised either solo, pairs or groups) I can be useful to a degree but is over done is some styles, but it can be counter productive in that it teaches the students to do all their moves in exactly the same way.

In actual sparring if you fight someone else from the same school there is an unspoken set of rules that are ingrained into how things are done.
It all comes undone if you fight someone who is not playing by these rules. Miyamoto Musashi the legendary Japanese swordsman defeated a lot of opponents because these styles of combat that they practised were ritualistic and hide bound, fixed in Kata and predictable. The only real way to become a good fighter is to practice actual fighting, I can't state that enough.

My suggestion is that if you want to learn self defence concentrate of those styles favoured by Mixed Marital Artists, forget anything that you've seen in movies. Steven Seagal is a idiot who big noted himself and got choked unconscious by a 70+ year old Judo man, Chinese Kung fu films are a bunch of acrobats jumping around on wires.
If anyone starts talking about Chi or Ki or the Flying Dragon Exploding Lotus Techniques, walk the other way, its cultish bullshit no different to Body thetan's and Psychic auras. And nothing to do with fighting or self defence.

And please, please, please! Stay away from Dillamn and his Dim Mak touch of death poppycock.

 

This is good information thanks for your post. And thanks for your experience.

A lot of places its illegal to have a fire arm. I just wondered what would be best for unarmed self defense. I am not as "fit" as I used to be I had a incident in which my leg got injured. I can't run or kick with that leg. It gives me pain. So I am unsure how to best defend myself now. So I am just asking.

 

LOL, I trained in Masatutsu Oyama's Kyokushinkai Karate before they brought in that no head punching rule, I have scars under my eyes to prove it. Gradings were full contact and the black belt candidate who whacked me was sorted out by his peers when he had to fight two black belts at the end.

Probably better for everybody.

 

krav maga is a true martial art. it designed to be used in combat. its general brutality is symptomatic of martial arts designed for combat.

 

I never said it wasn't only that I had some reservations about some of the techniques I seen demonstrated against professional fighters.
Will Krav help you win a fight? Most of the time, yes. But it depends on who you're fighting.

Watch this Krav Maga Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnZ0sfOiuIM

Now speaking from my experience what I'm seeing here is mostly Aikido based, or possibly Daito Ryu Jiu-jitsu and maybe a little Brazilian Jujitsu. It's mixed with Karate or possibly Taekwondo. I have a suspicion that a lot of the stuff that Roy Elghanayan is demonstrating is not actually taught to Israeli commandos.

Because a collection of techniques sans any moral/ethical guidelines (e.g. combative or defensive tactics). These are organised, codified and articulated to be taught to people who are going into violent conflicts. The need for fighting skills is immanent.
Techniques in that context are not designed to break or shatter. This sort of stuff was not to inflict pain, it is to injure and kill. And to do it A.S.A.P.. By I don't really see that in some of the demonstrations of Krav I've seen. Maybe I haven't really seen genuine Krav Maga?

But I would have to ask if it is as effective as its purported to be, then why isn't it being used by Mixed Martial Artists who are generally open to adopting any style that might give them an edge. Some proponents of Krav Maga might claim that true Krav is too deadly to be used as a common self defence, maybe it is? However I have heard similar claims from Kung Fu types over the years who have had their asses handed to them by beginners in Muay Thai or Brazilian Jiu-jitsu.

 

The problem that the no head striking rule caused was that a lot of Kyokushin fighters stopped covering their head when they fought, as you know its easier to cover for a kick to the head, but you need to have your guard against strikes to the head in place when it comes or you're going to get hit.
You fight how you train, so if you don't worry about getting clocked in the head then you've already trained a weakness into the style.

 

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/

http://www.conflictcommunications.com/

Facing Violence: Preparing for the Unexpected

 

because the basic princples of krav preclude using in a sporting event. it says go for the groin eyes vunerable parts. its view is disable as quickly as possible an enemy. its not a sport like the arts used in MMA

 

Our age differences flavor our various replies, as do our actual real world experiences and what exactly it is that we each wish to obtain from practicing a martial art.

To answer this from the OP, "best" obviously differs according to what I said above, it is very subjective.

'Easiest and fastest" can also mean "least effective" as the lower the cost the smaller the benefit. The more you practice something the better you get unless you practice it wrong. If you really just want self defense, buy a small bottle of serious pepper spray. I carry "Sabre" with me.

If you wish to be able to defend yourself bare handed against possible street assailants any one of the traditional martial arts will suffice if you get a good teacher and practice the drills. You will need to tailor your personal style to fit your individual abilities.

If you want to win in the octagon then pursue things like MMA, grappling and Thai Boxing. Krav Maga was developed by the Israeli military for interpersonal hand-to-hand combat as was the Russian art. Those are for winning fights quick and dirty.

While I deeply appreciate brand loyalty, I perceive no profit in disparaging styles that one has chosen not to learn or practice, excepting fraudulent dojos merely looking to profit from the unwise.

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My personal choice is Buddhist centered Taekwondo and I have been practicing that to my personal benefit for 40 years. I have also studied several other styles to broaden my base and make my style eclectic. My choice is based on the various benefits I wish to obtain from my practice.

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Initially UFC had no rules and everything was open, it still has minimal rules as far as I know (I don't really follow it like I used to).
I know from street fights and competitive fights I've had, that groin attacks are done usually if the opponent is getting desperate and are not as incapacitating as many people might believe. Eyes are difficult targets if the opponent is an experienced fighter.

From what I can see Krav is a hybrid of several other martial styles, the techniques of which are familiar to me, it seems a lot like Defendo (which I'm familiar with) which was developed by William E. Fairbairn and Eric A. Sykes in the 1920s as a hand to hand combat method to train the Shanghai Municipal Police, and was later taught in an expanded form to Office of Strategic Services and Special Operations Executive members during World War II.

I'd say that Krav like Defendo are an all round self defence method that would be effective on about 90 percent of opponents, however against a specialist in striking like a boxer, Kick boxer or someone who practices exclusively in forms of grappling like BJJ, Judo or Wrestling they might run into problems. What Defendo and probably Krav have going for them is that they are easy to learn and reasonably effective, but a specialist will always be better at the thing they specialise in.

 

Defendo? That is a new one to me...

Thanks for the sites

 

You are correct, I am one of the elder members of this community at 62. :itold:

While I am able to perform that double kick, I cannot do it with such grace, flexibility and elegance as that young Korean Buddhist monk did for the picture.

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For me, martial arts practice is not about being a tough guy, it is about being as much as I can be at this time in my life. Self defense is thinking about where you are at the moment , being observant and being proactive in avoiding potential problems rather than dealing with them when they occur. My very first TKD instructor told us "If you go someplace where you get into fights, quit going there." Seems simple now, but it was a revelation to us students back then.