to be effected i'm new to the board so i am reading back through the message base. as far as i can see this thread is dominated by people for whom the issue of suicide is rather intellectual, rather than personal. with the exception of a few messages about being suicidal there is nothing from anyone particularly effected by the aftermath of suicide. most of the messages are, to me, flippant in their disregard for the agony that anyone who committed suicide had gone through. to say nothing of those they left behind. to quote frommy blog dated: so if friends of your are talking about suicide, GET THEM HELP, LISTEN TO THEM. if you contemplate killing yourself, drop what you're doing and talk to a trusted friend. you are NOT ALONE. if you do kill yourself, the sun will rise tomorrow, and your loved ones will have to deal with the aftermath, but without you. thanks for listening. now back to the discussion richard williams
Why is suicide seen as eminently undersirable in the aftermath of Judeo-Christian-Islamic slave morality? I mean, we've gone from commending Socrates for drinking the hemlock to whinging every time some loser teen offs themselves. What the fuck? Unless you're about to shoot yourself. Then you should slowly put the gun down. Dropping it might remove a toesie. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! That's because you're a hyper-emotional pussy.
WordPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! That type of person does bother me, I question whether they actually care or if they just think they "should" say something.
seriously ok, despite some who can joke about this Ill just say that there might be some people who are not going to end up being healthy and living fortunate lives that have meaning. Why should those whose destiny has been dropped just wander as ghosts and zombies? Is it like earthworms or insects that serve a purpose we take for granted? Doubt it, these are humans. Im just saying, there are some lost people, even people who were once sane intelligent people who can end up losing their minds and any hope of living a prosperous life. Perhaps this is why some states are turning on to assisted suicide? End the pain! There someone I know who I can honestly say that people who know him would think all was better off if he wasnt around. See the difference in momentary undisputable pain and the life long undisoutable pain where the suicide should be debated.
Eggactly. I mean, everybody's suicidal at one or more points in their life. However, our genes just keep whispering "survive" in our ears, so we stick it out.
Not all people who commited suicide want to die. They just want the pain to end and thsi is the best way they know to go about it. I think the gene whispering in your ear is rather irrelevants. All of people just want there suffering to end, and they see no end in sight. That is the issuse not that they want life to end they just want it to be better. They cannot tolerate the endless pain, that is always dogging them. Some people who want to live kill themselves. The irony of all of this is that suffering is in the mind. Suffering is your perception. No. In some cases people may wish to commit suicide before they realize all of the factors in this existance. What to you need to be content and satisfied. If you base it upon external things, they are fleeting and will change easily. If you base you contentment on yourself internally how can you ever have discontentment? If you are ever disatisfied with your internal, then change it because you have the power to do so. How are you powerless then? People take life to seriously, we already know the ending. Loser is completly a matter of perspective. We are all loser from some ones perspective. I call that being human. Demons defeat the complaicent, and raise the humble.
Yeah and it's sad that some people do it to themselves- i.e. cause the pain themselves. lol! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Socrates was sentenced to death! It wasn't really suicide! I can't believe this! Are they really?? I bet this is in America who trusts 'in God'!. If they trust God so much then maybe they should have more respect for life especially human life.
Those instincts whispering in your ear are never irrelevant... If it weren't for those instincts I'd have offed myself long long ago. Anyone who kills themselves has to first get past the INCREDIBLY strong instinct to survive at all costs...
Offing yourself takes balls. It takes will to kill yourself. Is it those instincts or...mabye just that fact, that you do not want to die. Just live a "better" life. There may be an INCREDIBLY strong instinct to survive at all costs, but like I said it is made irrelevant by the will of a man/woman. The will of a man is stronger then love/hate/pain because he can conquer it. Will is power. With will a man can do pretty much anything he wants. Where there is a will there is a way. Though I do not believe a man should live by his will alone. I do not mean to be insulting, but if you truely had the will to kill yourself you would have. You are still alive because your will wasn't in it. Myself personally, I wanted to kill myself when my heart was running back and fourth like a (Well) Teenager. I wanted to kill myself because I felt so much pain and wanted it to end. I wanted existance to be over, to be born and weaned atheist death was merly an end. What I realize though was that it was my heart bashing my heart against the wall. If the heart is left un-tamed then it will enter a vicious cycle. The heart should not rule your consciousness. Though this brings up another debate, you should not dominate your heart and control it. For then you will become an unfeeling brute. It should be tamed and yet free. Live by your heart, temper its fires with your wisdom and drive with your will. Emotion with out will is depression.
I agree completely. I look at the heart like a sniveling baby, and my brain is the parent who has to look after it. I see people all around me saying "live with your heart" and all that, and alot of them think of me as a little too cold or a little too calculating... But these are the same people who's lives fall apart every week. Meanwhile I think with my head, sometimes I let my heart feel, when it's appropriate... But when it's irrational I just ignore it... Becase emotion is fleeting in the end. And I live a very decent life. I am not against the heart or it's emotions, but it's just like a child... The brain is what knows what's good for it. The heart can't always have it's way. Sometimes the brain has to put it's foot down. This is what got me out of depression, and kept me out. Following your heart all the time is a sure-fire way to end up miserable in the end. But then again so if following your brain all the time. You have to find a balance that works for you. Nicely put.
I just feel like arguing this statement... Have you ever been in love? A long, lasting, forever type love where, even in death you'll always love that person? No? Thought so. Also, knowledge is fleeting as it changes through science, experience, etc... Thanks for your time. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Yes I have, don't be so presumptuous... But there are times, many times, when following your heart saerves no good... The heart is blind, so to follow it is to walk blindly... Don't get me wrong, it's not like I NEVER follow my heart, but not when it's going to be in vain in the end anyway... I love my life, passionately, with my heart.... But I got here using my brain. If the parent the lets child live his life how ever he wants the child ends up miserable or dead. But if the parent only gives the child freedom when it's safe then the child grows up healthy. So I let my heart control me in safe enviroments. My heart always feels, always. It's wether or not I let it govern me that is the question.
1. Nobody is happy in this world Some complain of unemployment and poverty, others of disease, death in the family or some other distress. Every-where a tide of pain, misery, grief and suffering seems to engulf mankind. Nanak! all the world is steeped in pain, Happy are those, whom doth Nam sustain. Muslim philosophers have named this world, `The Home of Distress.' The world is divided into, two parts, water and land. In water, big fish live upon the small ones, and are themselves eaten up by still bigger ones. On the land, big birds eat the small ones and the latter make worms and flies their food. Lions and tigers make smaller animals their prey, and thus it goes on. Man kills all. Nothing is safe from him. And yet life is very dear to everyone. Imagine the agony of dumb creatures that are daily butchered to provide us food, and the distress of those that are wounded or killed when we are out hunting. The human form, that was granted to us for the sublime purpose of God-realization, is spent in tyranny towards His beings. When man sinks so low, he is worse than a beast. The beast kills only to satisfy its hunger, but man does it for pleasure, notwithstanding the fact that the slightest injury to his own person sends him reeling with pain and he demands immediate relief. What a strange world to live in, which has no security nor peace! No one knows when death will overtake or what catastrophe will befall one. 2. This world is not our True Home We are in an alien land where nothing is either permanent or our own. All around us is matter and mind made up of the five elements: earth, water, fire, air and akash (the matter that surrounds the earth beyond the air and, for want of a better word, is called ether). Soul, on the other hand, is a denizen of Sach Khand, an essence of the Ocean of Light and Bliss, pure, radiant and transcendent. It is a drop of the ocean of eternal happiness but, in its association with mind, for many ages, has gathered so much dross that it has completely forgotten its origin and has come to believe that this world is its real abode. Soul is tied down with mind, which in its turn is led by the five senses. It thus suffers the consequences of this unfortunate association and has to go through the long chain of life and death. It is in the human form alone that it may come in contact with a perfect Adept, get the secret of Nam from Him and by devotedly practising it, attain liberation. Like grass have I grown many times; Seven hundred and seventy forms have I been. --Rumi Guru Nanak says: Many times have you been born as worms and flies; Many times have you been born as deer, sheep and swine; Many times have you been born as birds, horses and trees; After numerous ages have you received this human body; Therefore, meet the Lord now. This is the only time. 3. It is only in the human form that the Soul can realize God and retrace its footsteps Homeward None other of the eight million and four hundred thousand species has this capacity. Man alone has this privilege. Even gods and angels pine for it. The human body is the exit through which one can get out of the vast prison and thereby put an end to all pain and misery. But alas! we do not give up the pleasures of the senses. Our mind has become so feeble and erring that it finds itself unable to withstand the ravishing sense pleasures and falls an easy prey to temptation. It is, however, never satiated. The more it gets, the more it desires. It perfectly realizes that the reaction of all `bhogas' (sense enjoyments) is pain, sorrow and dejection, yet it persists in its silly pursuits. Beware! DO action in this world goes without bearing fruit. Every action has its reaction. The worst reaction is that of lust. Guru Nanak says: For one moment of lust enjoyment, Ten million days of agony await thee. This adds up to thirty-three thousand years of agony for one moment of sensual pleasure. Only a fool would enter into such a bad bargain. What fools are we! If the result of pleasure is pain, how can it be pleasure? A wise man always keeps the ultimate result in mind. Blessed is the person Who always keeps his eye on the goal. --Maulana Rum But what is the remedy? How to dissuade the rabid mind from following this insane course, which takes it to destruction? In order to find a suitable remedy we must consider the nature of the mind. We know that it is fond of pleasure but it never sticks to one thing. It constantly keeps flitting from one to another. Nothing can keep it engaged for long. As soon as it sees something better, sweeter or prettier than what it has, it runs after that and throws away what it has in hand. The mind is never constant. The same is true of its love and attachment. It will readily give up all if we provide it with something sweeter and more absorbing than the worldly pleasures. That `something' is within us, in our own body. It is resounding above and behind our eyes in the form of sweet Music, which the Saints call Shabd, Bani, Nam, Word, Anhad Shabd, Sound Current or Audible Life Stream. When the mind hears this Celestial Music, all worldly pleasures become tasteless. All the Saints and Sages say that God is within us and that all our sorrows and worries will come to an end, only when we turn our attention inward. Christ says: The Kingdom of God is within you. Guru Nanak, Kabir, Tulsi Das, Soami Ji, Prophet Mohammed, all say the same thing. But we search for Him without, in temples, mosques, and churches; in rites and rituals; in scriptures and holy books; in sacrifices, penances and charities. All these, undoubtedly, have some merit in them but they keep us confined to lower worlds and cannot take us beyond the sphere of action and reaction. For reaping the reward of good deeds, we have to be born again in this phenomenal world. We can get true liberation only by totally withdrawing our attention from the outside and concentrating it at the eye centre as instructed by the Master. 4. God-realization is not possible without a perfect Master He alone can show us how to vacate the nine portals of the body and enter the tenth which leads to our Eternal Home. The Vedas, Shruties, Smrities, other holy scriptures and the Saints and Sages of all religions stress the need for a Mystic Adept for transport into subtle realms. Actually, man needs a teacher at every step from the time of his birth. He has learnt nothing without one. His first guru is his mother who teaches him how to sit, stand, walk, eat, drink and dress. Later his father, brothers and sisters take on the onerous role and he begins to prattle. When he grows a little older, his friends and playmates become his guru. Next he goes to schools and colleges where there are any number of them to teach him. Yet when it comes to learning the science of the soul-the most intricate of sciences, rarely do we search for a guru, and without one it is impossible to proceed even an inch on this path. Maulana Rum says: Even in the streets through which, You have passed a number of times, You often miss the way, If you do not have a guide. Beware of the way, Which you have never traversed. Never go there alone, Always take a guide. Not only is it impossible to know God without the help of a Mystic Adept, but without his protecting hand over one, it may be hazardous to make an attempt at going into subtle regions. In this path, many are the temptations to lead us astray, many the pitfalls to drag us down. Without a guide, we are sure to lose the way and fall into the quagmire of delusion and danger. The Perfect Master will show us how and where to enter the body, "the temple of the living God". There are nine outlets which lead to the sense world but the tenth opens into the spiritual regions. This is called the `Sushmana' gate and is located in the centre behind the eyes. It is through this aperture that we pass beyond matter and mind to reach the Everlasting and Immortal Region where the Supreme Lord-The Creator of all-resides. Austerities and the yoga of Pranayam (breathing) do not take us beyond the six centres. Only the Surat Shabd Yoga, the Yoga of the Audible Life Stream, the Anahat Shabd of the Upanishads, the Word or Logos of the Bible, can take us to the Highest Region, which is Eternal. This yoga can be taught only by the Saints. Nanak, Kabir, Dadu, Paltu, Maulana Rum, Shams-i-Tabriz, all preached and followed this way. The Surat Shabd Yoga is not a new science. It has existed ever since the world was made. Saints do not come to establish a new religion, nor a new creed, nor even a new sect. Their mission is simply to liberate the qualified souls from this land of misery, and to guide them back to their Home of Eternal Bliss and Peace. The Saints say: Brothers, this world is not your True Home. Nobody is happy here. This is the home of pain and sorrow. Leave this prison-house of evolution and devolution, and return to your own Home. This can be accomplished only while you are in the human body. Take full advantage of this opportunity. Seek a Perfect Master. Learn from Him the Science of Surat Shabd Yoga. Attach yourself to the Voice of God which calls within you at the eye centre. Follow this Divine Melody. Like a Powerful magnet, it will pull you up and take you to the feet of the Lord, whence these Currents emanate. These are the teachings of the Saints (Sant Mat) in a nutshell. The Saints do not ask you to give up one religion and join another, nor do they ask you to renounce the world or your family, or to change your mode of living. They advise you to live with your wife and children as usual, to carry on your profession and to perform all other duties. They only enjoin you to give some time daily, punctually and regularly to the most important of your duties, which is devotion to God and listening to His voice, the Celestial Sound within. You are to live in the world, but in a sensible way. Enjoy the world and its objects, but realize their true worth. They are meant to serve you. Take full service from them but do not yourself become their slave. Let not your mind be so entangled in attachment to these objects that, instead of being of service to you, they become your master. Live in the world in the most unconcerned way. Neither should the gift of a kingdom elate you, nor the loss of possessions depress you. Live in the world, but be of God and not of the world. Without actually renouncing, live like one who has renounced it. This is the real `Sanyas' (renunciation of the world) and has nothing to do with donning a saffron coloured robe or other religious garb. How aptly a Hindu Mystic has portrayed it in the following lines : Even when you have renounced the world, And live not in a village or town, Nor possess property or chattel of any kind, But instead roam about in forests and hills, And drink water from brooks and springs, Eat whatever is available in the forest, Put on no clothes, Read scriptures day and night And do repetition of `Om', Yet if there is an iota of desire, Of worldly pleasure in your mind, You are still a householder, through and through. Both renunciation and attachment pertain to the mind. Outward forms and symbols have nothing to do with them. Enter this garden of the world. Take a walk in it. Enjoy the fragrance of the flowers. Eat fruits and behold the beauties of Nature, but do not get entangled in thorns and prickly shrubs, lest you may get abrasions and wounds. Earn wealth honestly and spend it well. It is meant for you. Attend to your work during the day. Day is for work. But at night give some time to devotion and contemplation. This is `your real work'. Just think for a moment. Of all that you do during the day, nothing of it is for yourself. Much that you do is for your family and friends. Daily you spend some time in adorning your body, but realize that even this is not yours and will not accompany you on your last journey. It will stay behind to be buried or cremated. Your own work is that of doing Simran and Bhajan (the Spiritual Exercises) which will, in due course, liberate you from this vast prison in which you have been confined for countless ages. Life is short. Time is fleeting. Take full advantage of it, and if you have not done 'your own work' already, start doing it now. Seek a True Master and under His guidance attach your soul to the `Word' and reach your True Home. Axioms of Spirituality Excerpts from : The Science of the Soul by Maharaj Sardar Bahadur Jagat Singh (Radha Soami Satsang Beas - Punjab, India). Page 77-85
What is life with out heart? Following your heart to the ends of the world will serve a purpose it will fullfill you because it is truely what you need to be. The heart is not a whiney baby, the baby is the young with out experience and knowledge. But not the heart. The heart will show you where your place is in life. The mind can never dicide what you truely want it is your heart mind that knows. Rember I said temper its fires not control them. What is a safe enviroment any ways, the mind like the parent cannot protect the heart from getting hurt he must learn to make his own mistakes. The mind must not shelter the heart, then you are cold an calculating. That is when you are afraid to get hurt. If you are afraid then are you not controled by your heart? Control you heart and you will never be satisfied, because with out a heart you can never know satisfaction. There are times when the heart knows better then your head. The head is just as blind as the heart, only in different ways. We have both don't we? Live with your heart, not be controled by your heart. Like I said sometimes your heart knows better then your mind. You mind is not all knowing, and the heart will lead you to what you really want, if you let it. If you do not chose a path with out heart you will be miserable. The heart with out the mind will do many foolish things that will only break itself in the end. The mind with out a heart will have not will. With out will then there is no point ( Have you ever spoke to a drug addict who says he wants to quit. It is only because he thinks he should quit, not feels he should. Therefore he does not have the will to quit) But why did you want to kill yourself? Because you felt an emotion? That you felt so much pain. Because things wheren't right? You could not accept or understand the hand you've been given. What was the problem?
Ok, so when I feel anger in my heart I should follow through with abuse? Or when I feel fear in my heart I should turn and run? Unfortunately the heart, given power, will not fullfill you in the end, it will destroy you. This is my point. The heart does not learn. The heart will make the same mistake over and over. Your head learns when to ignore the heart. Like a first time parent. The head learns from the mistakes. Well I'm extremely happy with my life. I live it with a passion. I love those around me. So if that's cold and calculating, so be it. But I don't see a reason to do it any other way. You'd like to imagine me as cold and calculating, but maybe it's because you don't have the strength to tame your own heart? I can't know this, just as you can't know if I'm cold and calculating. My brain does the work, my heart enjoys the reward. If I let the heart do the work I'd get nowhere... Fluke. There are times when the heart happens to end up being right. But it never knew. Then how do you explain me? I'm far from miserable. I've never been so happy! But I do live with my heart, not controlled by it. I Your heart will SHOW you what you really want, if you let it, but it will not lead you to it. Your brain has to do that. Heart wants, brain achieves. I never said to cut out the heart completely. I said to learn when to listen to it and when to ignore it. Like I said, you must find your balance. The heart is impulsive, and this is it's downfall. As I said, I always feel with my heart, I just don't always let it decide what I'm to do next. There are times when my heart told me to go after a girl my brain knew wasn't right for me. I listened to my heart. And it got broken for the exact reasons my brain was warning me about. Like a child dissobeying it's parents. Now I let my heart feel for a girl, but until it checks out with my brain, I do not follow. Same goes on all levels. It has lead me to a very peacefull and passionate existance. Now my heart feels magnitudes in an enviroment in which it is almost always feeling good things. I don't see a bad side to this.
Because I had listened to my heart too much. And look where it got me. Not commiting suicide was my brain going "That's enough, time for me to step in..." That was the real turning point in my life. When I finally started listening to my common sense. Since then I have built an extremely good life. And it does not lack in heart either. Like I said, the brain does the work and the heart enjoys the reward.
First off I would like to adapt the concept of heart,mind and will. To Heart Mind(Emotional mind), Intellectual mind (Philosphical ponderings and such) and the Wisdom mind (The mind that understands). Will is just a product of the equasion. That is why you make the desicion with all three minds. The heart mind may know what you want put it may get clouded. That anger and fear will only lead you to more anger and fear. If the heart does go unchecked and the othere minds step in then the heart will only cause more suffering. I should also rephrase that it is not the heart mind the learns from the mistake, but the wisdom mind. So the heart mind is nessary to understand. Other wise you would have no motivation to understand. I meant you in a general term not you specificaly. I have not addresed your entire post, i will return to it in about half an hour so be patient.
