Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by notme2000, Dec 15, 2002.

  1. sycoindian myxomatosis> Registered Senior Member


    yes.. i agree to an extent to what you are saying... suicide should probably be the last resort... there's enuff help u can garner from other ppl or come to terms with certain situations in life that might make u wanna take your own life... i just feel that its very easy for someone else to objectively observe someone who wants to commit suicide and break it down logically why its such a horrible option... its hard to even exercise empathy in such complex situations... this topic of suicide always reminds me of a line from the movie 'virgin suicides'... the doc is explainin to the girl how she hasn't even experienced life enuf to take such a drastic action.. and she says, 'obviously you haven't been a 14 year old girl'... it really sheds a light into the situation.. no matter how silly or trivial someone's problems might seem to you, they are infact of great importance to that person at that stage in life.. why live a life of depression and try to untangle problems when you can end it for good? escapism is an option available to everyone... if life was that precious, we'd have statues commemorating every single person that lived...
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  3. Charles Fleming Registered Senior Member

    Wow Sycoindian! Your talking real sense there. That's put some perspective, context, on the issue, which is what is needed in life.
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  5. notme2000 The Art Of Fact Registered Senior Member

    If you were being completely objective, I'd see life as coming off as the logically horrible option...
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  7. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Existence is a horrible option compared to nothingness?

    Loser. If you're that devoted to suicide, prove it.
  8. notme2000 The Art Of Fact Registered Senior Member

    I said if you were completely objective. I'm not.
  9. Olaus Registered Senior Member

    Notme, your characterization of both suicide and Buddhism are a bit one-sided.

    Suicide is as complex as any human behavior. Which means, it's real damn complex. It's very difficult to say, "these are the reasons why it happens" though inventories can be taken (Durkheim, et al.)

    Buddhism was actually pretty pessimistic, eventhough this coloring of it is generally now frowned upon. The Buddha's message was that if we stopped wanting anything (even death/annihilation), then we'd be free of suffering. Well, I say this is logically obvious. But it's still just a value judgment. It implies, though there is no command, that since suffering is part of desire, or its byproduct, then we should devalue desire. All desire.

    Of course, Buddhism doesn't aim to thrust this value judgment on anyone, merely to persuade. One might say merely to state, but that's not right. I just stated the main tenet of Buddhism. But that's not how world religions get going.

    The point remains that Buddha wasn't carying out some action from an observation of beauty. He was attemtping to rid himself of suffering basically by ridding himself of himself. I think, and this is my opinion and I won't write a volume here backing it, that this is just a covert form of self-annihilation. He says give up the tanha vibhava, or desire for death, but his message really just offers a hidden meta-death itself.

    It's sad that once it becomes ingrained in a culture that "the message of X = good/beauty/love" it becomes a false axiom. The statements and philosophies of messiahs, prophets, mystics, or historical heroes shoudl not be taken for granted as either true or beneficial no matter what memes lick at their heels.
  10. notme2000 The Art Of Fact Registered Senior Member

    Some very good points. I guess there's just no winning in the end?
  11. Commandore Zippy Kender Legionnaire Registered Senior Member

    From birth we come and in death do we part this realm of existance. There is no point in denying that. As far as I'm concerned, however, it's what we experience in-between these two that counts.
    But we humans, in our never-ending quest for truth, simply must have the answers.
    No one living on this planet has ever seen whether or not there is an afterlife. Possibly, nor will we ever know. But in my belief, there is nothing after death except eternal darkness. I think of it very much like sleeping (NOT dreaming either) only there is no waking up. It wouldn't be a bad thing I guess, for you feel nothing, experience nothing. It would be as if you never were.
    Why may you ask that I think this way and not in any other? Well, for one,I am an athiest and believe in none of that mumbo jumbo religious/spiritual stuff (sorry if I affended anyone). It's extremely hard for me to trust the word of anyone who possibly never existed in the first place. Another thing is that after we experience all that we possibly could, what else is there left?
  12. AndersHermansson Registered Senior Member

    That would certainly rob you of any last really cool special effects like near death experience and stuff like that

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  13. notme2000 The Art Of Fact Registered Senior Member

    You've obviously never done morphine, LMAO I haven't either
  14. Empty Dragon Empty Registered Senior Member

    Buddha is the man who woke up. You are who you are,naturaly. Really it takes nothing at all. Desireing and striving only seperate you from what you originally have. Desire becomes habit, and habit becomes unconsciousness. So desire prevents one from being aware/awake. It seems to me that what buddha was saying; all these things prevent you from being conscious (Ei: get out of your own head.) That initial suffering that is created will only compound over time. If you are stuck in your head, of course you will be miserable, of course you will be discontent. The essence of buddhism is to wake up, not to penetrate further into unconsiousness.
  15. thefountainhed Fully Realized Valued Senior Member

    With the invention of Viagra, I don't forsee myself commiting suicide as when I can't naturally partake in the singurlarly most pleasurable thing known to man--sex, viagra woud help. If it ever ceases to work, well then who knows I might contemplate suicide. It amazes me how people used enjoy old age without sex. Freaking AMAZING!
  16. doom Registered Senior Member

    If you are brave enough to kill yourself then you are also brave enough to fix your life,do whatever it takes,
    hell even rob a bank and flee.

    I believe suicide can be the no scrap that it IS the most powerful mental state,well above being a psychopath or any emotions.

    It all depends,if you are mentally ill,or have become mentally ill in the case of severe depression and so on then suicide is or can be just a result of the illness,and the illness could come from seeing no hope,like maybe most your family is dead(irreversable)
    your in extreme debt and bankrupt cos of a business fucking up
    (irreversable),maybe ontop of that youve been told youve got a nasty illness like cancer and have also been framed for something you didnt do,maybe youre the unluckiest person alive that just doesnt see any point in life cos there is nothing,your life may have spiralled into decay that just seems to get worse,no job no house,no money,extreme debts,no family,no friends etc

    If you have an incurable illness this might be a good reason to check out now while you still can.

    Still,its powerfull,if i ended up like that id decide to control it in my favor,id probably become the most angry person on the planet,
    imagine extreme anger with zero fear!
    and 100% confidence,thats POWER,you could end up dead,although since thats what you were aiming for in the first place i dont see the problem.
  17. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

    Since all things tend towards death - shouldn't we expect logic to lead to the same end? After all, thought processes are subject to the same physical world as biological life.

    On the other hand, if the logical conclusion to life is death, (although the conclusion is totally subjective to personal experience and psychology - but no less valid for that) then there might be something wrong with either the life or the logic.

    Suicide is following the path of least resistance - life is literally squeezed out of your tube, and the opening just isn't big enough to let it all out fast enough - the light at the end of the tunnel becomes death. A bright shining light of deliverance from anguish.

    Someone who is suicidal has at the same time the clearest and darkest perspective on life without meaning. What the light means, depends on which side of darkness you are on.

    A mind trapped within itself has no escape but through the body...
  18. Empty Dragon Empty Registered Senior Member

    It seems to me that the tube is natrualy being squeezed dry so to rush it is to resist. Therefore I say that suicide is not the path of least resistance, because be its nature it is impatients. On the delieverance of anguish, granted suicide would end the external circumstances but also you. The Idea is to end the suffering and anguish, so then what causes the suffering. Resisting the circumstances in your mind and well throughing an emmotional fit. The path of least resistance it seems to me is to accept the circumstances. Misery is related to suffering, suffering is resisting the world. Ironically it is a choice to suffer, I like this, I want that, I need that. It is spiritual materialisme in its purest form.
    The point is that true deliverance can only come through life. I you are dead you can no longer feel (Obviously). If you did not care that you where suffering then you would not care to commit suicide. Obviously if one wishs to commit suicide then they obviously want something more. That something more can only come through life. The fact that one wishes to commit suicide is a sign of hope, they have not decided that a suffering mind is just the way it is.

    I would disagree like I said the fact that you want to commit suicide shows that you don't like where you are.
  19. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

    True. I guess you are resisting something no matter what you do. It's a choice of what to resist... If you contemplate suicide you are essentially choosing to play God over your own life, interfere with the natural order of things. It depends on your current perspective: if all you see and experience is a tube being squeased, and you are suffocating, suicide might seem like the only way out. And unfortunately in such a state of mind you also see life very selectively and selfishly. It's just too much trouble to take a step back from where you are lying in the gutter. On the other hand, some people decide to make the leap of faith and start believing in God, and their whole perspective changes. That's why we need other people, people who care about more than just themselves.
  20. doom Registered Senior Member


    This guy attempted suicide and failed,if this dont put you off,nothing will.Yes it is real,hes thrown himself from the chippan into the proverbial fire as hes only blown his face off,no hit in the brain=potential survival.

    Dude, even I have standards. The pic is linked below.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 11, 2003
  21. Empty Dragon Empty Registered Senior Member

    Well this can be a very broad statment. Since what is the cause of the desire for suicide? Stress? Pain? External conditions? Perhaps suicide can be viewed as a temper tantrum when things do not go your way. It is to abandon a state of balance and peace for the hysterics of the ego. What does one require to be peacefull and happy?

    It one accepts God into there life they accept, that something else controls the universe. Hence they no longer resist events. So it essential accomplishes the same purpose, taking the path of least resistance. Usually that allows them to have some kind of happiness. For this path one must believe with out a doubt, they know the truth. It may allow them to be happy, but it may prevent them from being free. Because hey, you never know. What you believe may be true, or it may be false. Also your state of being is conditional to what you believe is true. One could simply believe in it no matter what, igroning any inclines other wise. If there is reson to doubt then one starts to resist and strive. The recipe for suffering. It is a path that is inflexible. It is dependant on external sources, if those sources change then one must fight to save there belief.

    Whether it has to do with god or a natural order is irrelievant.
    Does a truely content and peacefull man wish to commit suicide? The desire for suicide seems to comes from an imbalance in the self.

    When one starts down one that self destructive path, it compounds and is only pushed further untill the point where cannot bear there existance. But originally was there a problem? No there was only a problem because one desided to enter in to such desiring state where it only compounds itself. Then of course to further the desire one starts to desire death. Like I said originally there was no problem the problem is created by resistance.

    Essential one who thinks something should be will suffer.
  22. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

    This is a Buddhist sentiment. But is resistance the same as desire? They say neutral is good, but neutral is neutral, isn't it? It can't be good or bad - so it leaves us with choice. The problem with life is choice, and that's why I said you choose what to desire and what to resist, but you also have instinct, personality, psychology, etc. that makes you more prone to certain decisions.

    I know ppl who were literally driven by depression to suicide. You can't use reason or logic to justify their actions, but you can't blame depression either. It's a sickness that leads to death like any other if left untreated and unsupported. They need other ppl, they needed support. Now, both this person's parents were psychologists - respected ones - and they were unable to prevent their child from committing suicide. No amount of logic or reason could stop it. So the unreasonable, the illogical, and the lack of desire, proved just as valid.

    The choice of suicide doesn't really fall in the framework of a normally functioning system. To be peaceful and happy you require external support - one you can trust in not to change, as you say.
  23. Voodoo Child Registered Senior Member


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