Take it from a guy who knows.... I have been there and know what goes on read down and let me explain the situation. There is one bottom line to the situation; arafat wants 100% of his proposed plan. did you forget camp david when he was offered 90% and he turned the offer down??? furthermore 60% of people poled in the disputed areas (all palestinians) said they liked the israeli government and wanted to keep things the way they are. the only reason the majority doesnt have the say is because they dont want to be at war with their own people. Israel wants peace. ask anyone. arafat has the ability to make peace but he refuses. dont forget the olympics in munich when he headed an assassination of Israeli atheletes. I cant believe of the appeasement he was given by later recieving a nobel peace prize. I can tell you that they hate jews. The arafat fanatics are jelous of our success. Its nothing to do with jews against muslims.....its to do with petulant palestinian adults who hate jews. I can tell you I have many muslim friends and its not a religious war on the israeli side. Israel is not fighting muslims religion, but rather unrully 4 year olds who were taught by arafat fanatics to kill. (dont forget saddam) TO THE USA These unrully people are not only against Israel but also against the USA so dont be bad mouthing Israel. We've (jews) tried for peace and peace is a compramisation of utilitarianistic views not an overwhelming imbalance to one side. If there were to be a war you would have no other choice than to side with the israeli's because the likes of saddam huessein and arafat are all the same. and would nuke you all if given the chance. dont be blindsighted. its in prophecy and in the bible. this is how ww3 will come about. it should happen in 2006 according to the bible code. and if all goes as prophesized then 'Not one of the house of essau shall be left standing on the earth' (not particularly muslims but the troublemakers who want war) brace yourselves because its coming and don't forget what side you belong on. I apologize to anyone whom I may have offended in this posting but my comments are sincere to the highest degree and all information I have given is TRUTHFULL.
hey all Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! elbaz... i understand your points and do agree with them in principal. However... There are 2 things i think need to be addressed on the Israeli side! I personally have a big problem with country’s that dictate one certain religion as a state doctrine of societal rule. Soo... it would seem that if a person was not Jewish then they should not live in Israel......? Is that logical in light of the social system? I do realise that there may be many people who are not Jewish in religion but do live in Israel! ...but do they live in the shadows? *I must state i am delving maybe too far into societal philosophy :/ My 2 points!- one ; Israel have failed to demolish Palestinian infrastructure in a period of "globally assumed" war...(in light of civilian casualties on both sides it is a clear definition). Two ; repatriation of all people who choose not to support Arafats suicide bombs as Israeli’s and then build the biggest kick arse wall with lots of land mines in between with a huge water way and a angry crocodile breeding program to fill it! ...plant some really big trees and start to forget who they choose to live next door to! oooohhhhhhh and one more thing... redirect some of those spy agency funds to a missile defense business that competes with the USA! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! BUT (the ever present word in such situations) that is mealy one extreme view of a person who thought someone might want to solve the issue once and for all! :/ -I would be surprised to hear any government state they have not broken basic human rights, i personally believe they would be lying based on the law of probability and vast infiltration of perverse humans in every level of society. IT MAKES ME FEEL SICK TO MY STOMACH when i replay the images in my mind of the Israeli soldiers being lynched by the Palestinian "civilian" mob! - thus i can understand the feeling of blood lust that could brew in the hearts (of family)and minds of all those who watched such an act of in-human satanic blood orgy. Maybe if Israel had carpet-bombed the area immediately, they might have illustrated the reality of the situation. MAY THEY ALL BE HUMBLED BY THE SHEAR MIGHT AND POWER OF MOTHER NATURE... MOTHER EARTH! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
The Road Less Travelled Attempting to balance the Israel/Palestine question with some views from a different perspective is truly difficult. The Israeli position is so dominant, and vitrually unquestioned, in North America and Europe. There are two sides to a debate though, and before we all go thinking that Israel is the poor hard done by country here, let's try a different perspective on this. To the messianic message man from Calgary, I have never been pesuaded by any religious text. You're going to be looking a bit silly when 2006 rolls around and none of this happens. But that's beside the point. The failure to make peace is all down to those Palestinian trouble-makers. Israel, that paragon of justice and peacefulness, is doing all it can, but how can Israelis negotiate with fanatics? Quite. They have offered peace, but had it turned down. Indeed. First. Israel invaded the West Bank in 1967. There is a UN resolution demanding that Israel hands it back. It has been 34 years now. If you invade and annex a country, offering 90% back is hardly a 'compromise'. Suppose Iraq had offered to return 90% of Kuwait? If Israel truly wants peace, leave the West Bank. That simple. Second. Israel NEVER offered 90%. That is propoganda circulated by Israeli negotiators to make them look less blameworthy. Read the terms of the Oslo accord and subsequent deals and find where it says this. It doesn't. But even if it was offered, it never would have been accepted by the Knesset. Israel did not live up to its side of an imperfect agreement. Netenyahu did everything he could to destroy it. The man who could have delivered it was assassinated and now the country is ruled by a man under investigation by the Hague for war crimes. He won't even stop building settlements in areas Israel is supposed to hand back! That doesn't look to Palestinians like Israel wants peace. If we accept that Israel can hang on to some of its gains (territorial gain through military conquest), then we can hardly blame the Palestinians for violence. Yes the attacks are aimed at civilians, and that is sad, but I can understand the anger. Protest on the street and get shot. Write articles and get imprisoned (as my friend was). No one listens to anything except violence. And it was, lest we forset, Jewish nationalists in the 1930s that invented terrorism - attacking British colonial rulers at the same time as Britain was fighting Hitler. They got a country in that way, why not the Palestinians whose cause was ignored until 1970? It's a shame really, because not only do more innocents die, but the Palestinians just case is lost amid the bloodshed. It is, in my view, self-defeating but I understand it. The Palestinians aren't asking for much. Not all of the West Bank and Gaza strip as international law demands, but what was offered and agreed. That is humiliation enough - to be reliant on the invaders for a tiny chunk of what was once your own country. But as the Palestinians wait, as the terms dictate, the building and encroachment goes on. Then hand-overs are stalled. Then areas are re-negotiated. Then all of Jerusalem is gone. Then an alleged war criminal with a history of anti-Arab views is elected. And all the time you talk, lose faith, grow bitter that the sacrifices you make are being ignored and used to buy time and expand Israeli occupation, entrenching it. Finally, Sharon, the most hated figure in Palestine, symbolically visits a Muslim shrine to underline Israel's rule of a subjugated people. You call this willingness for peace? Enough was enough. Now the world takes notice, but sadly PR skills are not first and foremost among the Palestinians who are unjustly cast as villains - head-butting the bullets as it were. Sanctions on Israel. A willingness from the international community to do what is right rather than what is convenient (it will be better in the end, trust me). Justice for Palestinians. Palestinians who now have no rights to land where their fathers, grandfathers, great-grandfathers (and on) grew up, but where a jewish citizen in the US who has never set foot on Israel does. Is that just?
True, sortof....... I must agree with you two, that Israel is not all perfect.....but I think there are some things that I think you do not completely know of. I cant remember to which of you I am giving each point out so I will do it randomely. For one thing a Jewish state primarily built for jews is not as discriminating as it may seem. All you have to do is look around the world and in any place you can see that jews do not feel completely at home, nor are accepted, completely ( ok places like the USA where there are large amounts could be considered havens) but it was built as a reclamation of land where jews would have a center, reclaimed after thousands of years. People werent tortured and nuked for the space but it became a religious war because before it became a state palestine didnt want ANY jews in their country and made life hard on them. Ofcourse it is true that it was bloody but what you cant live as an unwanted guest in your country nor should you want to leave because of that. Before it became a state the USA officially acknowldged it as one and they became, I believe, a parlimentary dictatorship. This means no one living in the country will be discriminated against and it would be punishable by law to do so. No one is discriminated against and Israel doesnt have societal laws like a president or mp would have to be jewish. Any person can be. This open mindedness is part of the reason they came from middle ages in the fifties to even more cutting edge than north america nowadays. One post said that the US is pro israel because jews basically own everything. so think about it...if jews around the world own pretty much everthing relative to our population of 12 million. then israel being the convergance center is on top of everything..reason for their success. If Israel were to falter than everyone even the palestinians would feel the effect. Bottom line----------israel is mostly jewish similar to places like spain where people are mostly catholic and so on. there is no tyranny. Secondly let me refresh your memory on 1967-summer of love. it was yom kippur the holliest day of the year for the jews--no electricity no food no water not even work is allowed. all the countries in the middle east like egypt lebbannon ect. decided in a carefully planned strategy to throw the jews into the sea once and for all. They took a cheap shot on yom kippur.......everyone in the world expected israel to cease to exist. One of the most shocking wars in history israel took control of the entire middle east in 6 days. (((((France was against israel too. the israelis ordered 5 war ships from frances-paying the money in advance and during the war the french would not send the ships. A high ranking jewish officer ordered the ships be transfered to israel and later claimed refuggee status there. If he came back to france then he would get in big big caka.)))) they wanted the jews out and lost miserably although israel did return the gaza to egypt and even parts of the west bank to palestine. I think they should have kept EVERYTHING because after all, all is fair in true love and war. ALSO the israelis have big nuclear bomb (which by the way where invented by jews - einstein and oppenheimer) and missile power..power of which they need no more than they have. relative to the 7 million population of israel....they have the best army in the world and could have dessimated infrastructure in palestine but notice that in 50 years israel has taken no cheap shots only integral and completely neccessary steps to bring peace. The only thing standing in the way are the palestinian fanatics who still want another chance to wipe the jews into the sea.....but let me remind you that nowadays any such 6 day war would not end without nukes which is why israel has not wanted to kill arafat or destroy more infrastructure than absolutely needed. I WANT PEACE but I will not sacrifice all for it if they dont sacrifice all for it. By the way we'll see how 2006 ends. Once again you do make your points but let them be completely informed. Peace is mutual---I agree but BOTH sides must keep that mind not just the bigger side.
Well, speaking of completely informed points, I'm afraid that you have made numerous factual errors. The 1967 war was the six-day war, an attack launched by Israel. Call it pre-emptive if you'd like, but the fact remains Israel initiated hostilities. This was the war in which Israel took the West Bank and Gaza strip, setting up the 1973 war, the Yom Kippur or October war, launched by the Arabs. I do know the histroy of the region. Israel is not like Spain. Spain does not give catholics in Mongolia (if there are any!) more property rights than jews in Barcelona. The right of all jews to live in Israel is a religious distinction. As you have argued for a Jewish 'reclaimation' of land, I assume the principle is one you believe universal. In that case, I suggest you vacate your house in Canada to make way for the original inhabitants. Oh, you won't be paid for it, and your neighbours homes may be bulldozed. You may be fortunate enough to find a country to take you in as a refugee, unlike the stateless Palestinians in 1948 and 1956. If you're really lucky you won't be massacred as Palestinians were at Dayr Yasin. (I draw your attention to the following link, from an Israeli historian, if you believe ethnic cleansing and sytematic murder is somthing the Jewish state is incapable of: http://www.birzeit.edu/crdps/village.html) All's fair in love and war? A recipe for destruction certainly, and I assume that Hitler is thus blameless as are Saddam Hussein and Palestinian 'fanatics'. Let the indiscriminate bombing continue as you suggest. I don't want to hear a word of outrage raised against Palestinian attacks in this case, all is fair after all. Necessary steps for peace? Ask Israeli Arabs who have now grown tired of being treated as third class citizens. MK Bishari is threatened with exppulsion form parliament and legal charges for simply speaking with Syrians. Twelve Israeli-Arab citizens were killed while demonstrating against Israeli brutality earlier this year. Several victims showing 'execution style' bullet wounds in the back of the neck. This would never happen to Jewish Israeli citizens. And where is the justice? The cover-up continues, no-one will answer for their crimes. I'm disappointed to see you argue from a global Jewish perspective. I have no problem with Jews, and accept that they have had a bad time. I do have a problem with Israel though, and I don't think that the mere fact of suffering terrible discrimination then gives you the right to perpetrate it. I'm talking about the state of Israel, not jews elsewhere or the contribution to the world. I say again, Sharon doesn't want peace, he wants expansion. Through the past decade Israel has moved towards peace sporadically and gone back on their word given in Oslo numerous times. There comes a time when you have to stop saying compromise, and start saying justice. I don't see why leaving the West Bank is that impossible. It would mean peace which is, after all, what you want. Gain through conquest has no place in the twentieth century, but then I forgot, everything goes. In that case, the ultimate demise of Israel is the future, and they may take Arab states down with them, but who needs a Pyhhric victory?
he faces the same obligations and rights as any israeli parlament member(which is more than can be said about the "parlaments" in the nations around Israel) and he won't get anything since our suprem court will rule that it is against the democracy system or whatever to punish him (you should check what the Israeli suprem court deals with you will find one of the most justice doing courts in the world.) go ask an Israeli arabs if they had a chance where would they wanna live? Israel,west bank/gaza,jordan,syria,leb,egypt. when the 1st stone is in the air or any other such acts it is not a demonstration it is a riot Israeli police would use ruber bullets and other messures (yes even live ammo) towards jewish rioting if needed as well. but for some reason jewsih israeli demonstrations don't have a tendency to throw stuff on the police and be a hazard to thier life. go ask an israeli arabs how they hide deep in thier houses or go away when a celebration of some sort goes on in thier homes due to fearing bullets. don't get me wrong i am not a racist i think it is all due to education and the local culture. for an instance among arabs living in usa,canada,uk,australia such events are not common(if ever) and other dumb tirbal acts that can be seen among arabs living in arabic/islamic nations. u can see it in Israel as well among israeli arabs infamily killings are not as common as with the bedwins living in the south of Israel or as in egypt or such while i doubt there is any among arabs living in the west world(in comparison the local population)
Odd how Jewish-Israelis don't seem to die at the hands of the Israeli police, but Arab-Israelis do. And of course during a riot it is obvious why you'd need to shoot a rioter at close range in the back of the head. Clearly a threat. Not all of those killed were even rioting. Here in the UK, uncultured, stupid and uncivilised as we are, there have been recent riots where stones were thrown, cars set a blaze, police attacked. For some reason the police managed to quell the situation without using rubber bullets or, maddest of all, live ammunition. I guess the Israeli police are either incompetent or trigger-happy. We try not to kill off the citizens here. Bit of a vote loser (probably the reverse in Israel). I'll retract my words when the police open fire on Israeli Jews. A senior reporter for H'aretz has said that such a thing is inconceivable, even in a riot.
I knew it I knew that eventually this discussion would escalate to a point that there would be biased arguing, even I must admit that I have been slightly biased. But isnt the truth that we all have slid to one side of the ship somehow. Lets not forget that the common belief in this thread is that there should be peace. Some of my information is misinformed....sure, but I'm just 15 and I dont have an acute knowledge of world history but to captain canada didnt the british expel all jews from britain, and didnt they claim land all over the world including canada and mistreat the people......ie forcing them to convert and saying how primitive and disgusting they are. Admit it...your country has been far more brutal and considering I was born in canada I think I have as much a right to live here as the natives who were born here. I'm sorry I ever got involved in this conservation because there are so many little details to be considered. israelis have a right to live on annexed land just as the arab israelis have a right to live on the annexed land too if they want. there is no special rule saying it is all for the jews. They have never been racists and by the way all the signs were there that they were going to attack first. Israel only surprised them early in the morning only a few hours ahead of what the spys had thought before they would be attacked themselves. This is not a simple problem which is why there cant be a simple compramisation. Frankly I hope they get peace cause thats what I want. If I ever go there again I want to feel safe walking the streets in jerusalem. End of discussion as far as I am concerned. I'm sorry If I have offended anyone but they are purely my thoughts on the issue. Brittain ain't so perfect. There are so many things that I wanted to say in response but I really dont care if anyone knows what they are anyway. I'll be leaving the city till monday so if you write back I cant respond. nevermind everything I just wrote Lets just comprimise this argument by saying that both sides are wrong and need to make peace. I really dont care anymore. I think you must agree that this argument is getting way out of hand. THE END ((appropriately))
Well... I don't know that the debate has gotten out of hand. As far as I am aware, I have said nothing racist, offensive or unture. The purpose of a message board is to post messages in order to hold a debate. If you don't like hearing opposing views, or the direction of the thread, ignore me - move to another thread. I'm sorry if you feel that I have in some way been insulting, insulted or over-bearing. I simply try and counter what you must admit is a highly biased media interpretation of the Israel-Palestine conflict. I think Arab-bashing and fear of Islam are major problems. By no means are the Muslims entirley virtuous (Afghanistan etc.), but by no means are they as evil as is commonly protrayed. There is a lot of demonisation going on in the US, with drugs as well, as the military looks for threats to justify an inordinate defence budget. To be honest, a degree of flexibility over Israel and acceptance of Islam would help the world towards peace no end. My view anyway. I do take some issue with posting a series of statements (which I happen to disagree with) and then declaring the thread closed. We're not here for censorship. I have said all that I care to about the Palestinians in this thread - I can see that my statements will have little impact in a debate that is already pre-decided. Nonetheless, if you have any comments to make, I'm happy to listen, but I will not cease from posting beacuse you don't like the direction of the debate.
in response Well in response to that I have to tell you that the only reason I thought this conversation was getting out of hand is because I've had previous bad experiences on sites that I've been kicked out of for voicing my true opinion. I didnt want that to happen on sciforums because I really like this place. I just want you to know that I am not letting you win this debate but I really think that it is getting nowhere. They have supposedly been working on peace for like 10 years now and they still dont have it. How do we expect to find a way for peace or a right side in this little thread? Anyway I'll be leaving in 1 hour and not coming back till monday. But I thought I should just check this thread before I left.
Re: True, sortof....... I suppose Ariel Sharon does not qualify as a fanatic? I don't think any thinking man, would go with an armed escort to someones else's religious shrine & not think there would be trouble? But that is what I think he had in mind. Kick a hornets nest, & you get a lot of very mad hornets!
Wasn't it also a Jewish extremist who killed Rabin? Sometimes it is ones in ones own country who dashes hopes of peace as well. Also a racist is a person who says something negative towards another persons race. Example: If I said all White people are stupid I would be recist towards whites which I aint. However, if I backed that up with facts(which would be very hard to do for every white person) then it would be ok. For instance, all Nazi's hate Jews. This wouldn't be racist but fact. So don't worry about being racist if you are pointing out facts and personal experiences with a certain race of people, because you are just telling the truth which should not be hidden. Elbaz, I'm thinking this discussion is very mild compared to the "religious thread" on this site. But as long as we don't resort to swearing, name calling and stupid comments we should be right.
RE: in response It's not about winning or losing an argument, it's about hearing different perspectives that are not so forthcoming. To learn something new (for all of us) must be the objective. To form an opinion based on knowledge of all the arguments must mean the opinion is stronger. I try to keep an open mind on these issues. As yet, I've heard nothing to alter my view that the onus lies with Israel. If Israel ceased settlement building (as the Mitchell report requires), ended incursions into the Palestinian controlled areas and adopted softer policing ending the assassiniation of Palestinian leaders, then I would have little option but to suggest that Palestinians stopped the violence and returned to talks. As the 'civilised' state in the dispute, the onus must be on Israel to end the cycle of revenge attacks, not escalate it. But Israel really needs to build confidence that they are genuinely interested in creating a free Palestinian state. With Sharon in power, this looks unlikely. So what are the Palestinians to do? Quietly accept Zionist expansion and killing while they wait for a fair deal that may never come? We must remember who are the oppressed and who are the oppressors.
I'm glad well I'm glad that I've finally found a good forum that accepts different pov's. I never got kicked of that other forum for swearing, though. Nevertheless, I still think that any person has a right to settle on land that has been annexed. If they are so serious about getting some back, then why dont they settle there. I'm sure there are plenty of whealthy palestinians around the world who could do so? Israel is a small country and with few places to settle, especially around jerusalem I think its alright considering that, that land is holly to almost everyone around the world. leaving out the east. The palestinians want all of it when anyone should be able to settle there including them. Sure there are political lines with specific jurisdictions but when it all comes down to things. It really doesnt matter what lines your in. Israel gives EVERYONE equal rights not just the jews. Lines dont matter. Let them get over it. By the way the US did the same thing to canada. war of 1812 which turned out to be a draw. Canada already owned oregon and washington. I cant remember how, but somehow the us was GIVEN it after the war claiming it had been theres. Canada didnt care though. if you wanted to live there you would just follow US law. We can get along with the americans why cant they?
As far as I know of, no one has been kicked out of Sciforums for expressing an opinion. Usually it is for vulgarity, bad behaviour, and extremely bad manners. Neither of which I see applying here, though I can not speak for Porfiry. So I would say relax, you are doing fine, Elbaz. To express one's opinion through reasonable debate is what Sciforms is all about. That and the exposure to new ideas and new discoveries.
Did Israel promise to give some land back to Palestine 50 years ago? This is what I was told last year by a Muslim. But I know that from how all of the Muslims reacted last year at my school(not Middle Eastern) its not about two countries. Its about Islam vs Judaism and its time to get revenge. Someone got expelled from my school last year for putting up anti-Jewish stuff, graffitti or a poster or something. It was pure anger. At my school if you were Jewish you were going to get bashed up. Where is the love?
You're right You're right, Deadwood, about the fact that it has become sortof an islam vs jewish fight. There are gang violence things at specific places like western Canada high school in my city where there are religion based fights. But I can tell you that its mostly religion oriented on the palestinian side. not being biased or anything but people talk about the palestinian violence not muslims in particular. I have nothing against the muslims. Infact my dad grew up in morocco where most of the people are muslims. They got along very well and still do nowadays despite problems in the middle east. This is not a squable that will end easilly. I think it could possibly turn into a ww3 type situation. I hope that they can get peace but I still stand strong to my views.
SHI*T FUC8K DAM*N HE*L...... <B>THAT BRINGS UP AN INTERESTING POINT, DAVE! Why haven't I been banned yet???????</b>
so? hmm in maroc they are not that muslem on thier t.v u can see girls dress up like in mtv and among the progs they air u can find the suprano family(that mob usa seria in which u can see some tits) dou know what they would do to you if u were found in egypt with a video tape of it ? the level of islam in arabic/islamic nations can be judged by thier t.v and media. maroc is not a fanatic islamic nation egypt also tries to be that way but they can not due to the wrath of some fanatic people(the muslem brothers movment and such crap they even wanna destroy historic sites like in afganistan and they were incharge in terror attacks on those hisotirc sites ,mostly they kidnap jap,geri tourists.
My mum just told me that Lebonese Muslims are targeting white women and raping them at knife point. Is this because they don't wear a head covering so they are up for grabs? (I mean this seriously)
