# Sugar to Methane?

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by Carcano, Aug 23, 2008.

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1. ### Billy TUse Sugar Cane Alcohol car FuelValued Senior Member

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23,198
NG is obviously finite and will be more expensive, but that is not the same as "tapped and done." Probably oil will increase in cost much faster. Your blog link several times states it is speaking about "conventional NG" - That means what come up from the bottom of the drill pipe. Now many old fields of conventional gas are "tapped and done" with >90% of the original ng still in the ground near the down pipe end. The flow thru the porous rocks to the down pipe end is just too slow to collect with a profit. This is why they are reentering the old well and at bottom putting out many half mile long horizontal collector tubes with holes in their sides - perhaps we will get several times what has already be removed from these "exhausted" old wells.

Yes, it will cost more, but NG is gaining market share on oil, for home heating as oil is esculating more rapidly in price.

Investment "rag" ZACK, one of the better IMHO has daily feature called "bull of the day." (and dozen or so detailed studies of other companies.) Here is what I copied recently and condensed about one:

"12June Zack’s bull: In 2006, for $33.8e6, acquired Burlington Resources, exploration and production (E&P) company, with a significant North American unconventional natural gas-focused reserve base. At end 2004, Burlington’s proved reserves totaled 12 trillion cubic feet equivalent ~ 2 billion oil-equivalent barrels, of which 69% was natural gas and 89% was located in North America. Exploration and Production: ConocoPhillips* has very large and established E&P operations in all major hydrocarbon producing regions of the world. As of the end of 2007, proved reserves of 10.6 billion oil-equivalent barrels, including its share of LUKOIL s reserves and the additions from the company s joint venture with EnCana. The company s reported proved reserves tally does not include approximately 200 million barrels associated with its Canadian Syncrude operations. Total production in 2007 averaged approximately 1.94 million oil-equivalent barrels per day, up approximately 26% from the previous year's level. Your link is just some guy's blog. - Zacks is well respected firm with many staffers and probably research budget >$100,000 annually.

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*I do not own any ConocoPhillips, but have been tempted a few times to buy some.

Last edited by a moderator: Aug 28, 2008

3. ### buckybeamRegistered Member

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272
not the blog, screw the blog, its the quotes in it but its not important....i was saving time the info had already been quoted for me and put in one place.

the point is.
the us has already seen its ng hey day. the rest will be work.. but , hey new discoveries are made each day so who's to say?

your zack quote is speaking of north America. as it stands a fair amount of the us ng is coming from Canada which is great but it isn't us reserves. also it is brought in from Caribbean off shore drilling again great but not US reserves. the total proven us reserves are in the neighbor hood of 150 trillion cu/ft. all the rest is doing weird stuff or unproven. so the us may have more up its sleeve.. best to use it for heating at this time. drill for more oil in the us to use in cars. let the other technologies catch up, they will, people are investing a lot of money in it.

billy t you im sure understand the market, yes?

Last edited: Aug 29, 2008

5. ### CarcanoValued Senior Member

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6,865
And then theres the added cost of trucking the ethanol to service stations...and the inefficiencies of incomplete liquid fuel combustion.

The Honda Civic GX mentioned isnt an experiment, its been is production for ten years. They cant keep them in stock, esp. in the midwest where natural gas can cost less than a dollar for a gallon equivalent.

Many owners use a home compression device which makes it even cheaper:

7. ### Billy TUse Sugar Cane Alcohol car FuelValued Senior Member

Messages:
23,198
getting the fuel (gasoline, alcohol, or NG) to the filling station will usually be by truck so that is not very important consideration. Gasoline is the most efficient in this last step of delivery as it has the highest energy density (least number of truck trips required) In some urban areas the local gas lines could be used with local compressor at the stations. (I am assuming that the mercaptins added to cooking/heating gas will be destroyed sufficiently in the IC combustion, but if not and whole city is using the cooking/ heating gas in there cars, then it will smell like "skunk heaven".)

I do not known to what extent,if any, NG achieves greater combustion than a liquid fuel. I suspect that the main reason for incomplete combustion is the inability to have adequate O2 in each cubic mm of the cylinder. If you add excessive air to assure enough O2 every where for complete combustion, there will be a lot of N2 being compressed and expanded on each power stroke with the associated losses especially the needless heat loss as extra hot N2 leave the tail pipe. Thus, in ignorance, I bet the difference if any between NG and alcohol's unburnt fraction is extremely small. (0.001% or less would be my guess for the difference.) I.e. I bet that the incomplete combustion of even liquid fuels is mainly due to not wanting to lower efficiency by pumping excess N2 thru the motor. I do not know anything about this - just thinking about it. Do you have any data on this?

That is good news (to me) - the more diversity we can have in motor fuels the less likely we will excessively depend upon any one.

Last night Obama said if elected, he would end the dependancy on mid East oil in ten years. NG and alcohol cars both will be required to do that. They are the only current technology known to be feasible in the long run. Batteries may come and join these two soon, but do not count that due to both their high cost and production/disposal pollution problems. (Not to mention that for next decade more than 80% of cars on the road will use an IC motor.)

Last edited by a moderator: Aug 29, 2008
8. ### buckybeamRegistered Member

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272
that's rather impressive as he's only guaranteed 4 years if hes elected. haha

could also open up drilling again in the us, that would be best in the mean time.
nuclear energy and hydrogen production would be great. lots of new infrastructure to create. the hydrocarbon fuels can use much of the existing infrastructure there by eliminating using more energy to create new infrastructure. at some point new technology will take over. the free market will decide for sure.

9. ### CarcanoValued Senior Member

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6,865
Theres another way to get a more complete burn of liquid fuel and that is to vapourize it before it enters the combustion chamber.

What mixes better with oxygen...gas or liquid???

Your Brazilian friends would love the kit Jonathan Goodwin is offering which does just that for \$1400.00.

He explains that by vapourizing E85 your mileage will improve by 30%...making it competitive with the higher energy density of gasoline.

He also demonstrates how biodiesel can be atomized with a high pressure injector for the same purpose.

Last edited: Aug 30, 2008
10. ### buckybeamRegistered Member

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272

that is what opel is doing with there 135mpg deisel sports car.

btw i mentioned it earlier in this thread

Last edited: Aug 29, 2008