/I don't really think this differentiation is needed; artificially created neural nets can also learn. yes but they are not aware they are doing so. I think of them as flat, with consciousness adding another layer of depth. i'm not saying that it is impossible for a nueral net to become conscious, i just don't think current comprehension can lead to it. /To create a mind?... To understand mind. I suppose you might be able to create one after you understood it.. but that's a whole other ethical connundrum. To risk potential extermination as a species by creating beings superior to ourselves is a pretty squishy subject to me. /I still don't think you have adressed my question. "If the brain is in essence a machine, then what is the control of the brain?" A straight answer: The same parameters that control your computer or the growth of fungus in dirt - the parameters of existence (physics). /You seperate the brain and the mind. Yeah, in the context of the brain, the mind is the part of it that has the ability to be brought into immediate focus. I would say the property of consciousness adds an aspect to "mind" that warrents classification as I have done. /There must be a control, so what is it? A control of mind? I would say "that which you consider you" is in control. /So a baby has no mind for it has yet to experience? A babie's "experience" begins in the womb. They are 'conscious' but do not yet have a 'sense of self'. /Well without a mind at birth, how then does the experience mean anything? A baby has a mind at birth but it is quite simple. Random and instinctive exporation of their surroundings lead to the further development of mind and eventually to a sense of self. From my experience with my children, I could see it in their eyes between 6 months to a year... they became aware of themselves in a very simplistic manner. /I think the reasons why I ask the question then are different from why I ask it now. How does an altered consciounesses factor into this geometry? It temporarily changes the shape of the lense as I described before (which is itself comprised of the geometry of one's experience). /I will rephrase: How does the brain recognizing that the present is a moment in what is a series of moments factor into its operation? Feedbacks, etc.. Well, it's always right now so I don't really understand your question. /I have to think whether or not this was the question as I originally intended Brother I know the feeling. /I think this question refreshes my memory. What I am asking is what do you consider memory to be within the scope of the net/pattern? Very much so, yes. /So if there is an unended path, it is allowed to linger? Hmm.. think of it more as seeing a shape in the clouds or say you go around dropping different colored tiles all over the ground.. each of them has meaning in and of itself and may even relate to the others.. but when you go up to the 3rd story and look down on it, you notice you ended up painting a picture of Jerry Garcia... that is epiphany. It's like a bunch of nodes in a nueral network all fold together somehow, creating a circuit that did not previous exist that both integrates and strengthens the connections that comprise it... leading to an understanding that would not have been allowed if the previous nodes didn't exist. /We'll get to it. Allright then. /So if a new born baby is fed intravenously, within a darkened room, with a constant (thereby essentially nulling it), air, etc temperature, how will that affect the development/creation or working of the mind? /without any other stimulous? nominal mind (given that instance of course, each mind has its own 'nominality' so to speak). no stimulous = minimal development. nuerons with connect, but with no direction from stimulous, leading to a meaningless mind. /What of an adult who has had experiences? That is difficult to say. There is a general nuerophsyical commonality between most adults I'd think, but then the configuration of the individual could overcome who knows what? Yeah, you need to know the initial conditions to even hypothesize.