Subjective Geometry

Discussion in 'Intelligence & Machines' started by wesmorris, Jun 12, 2003.

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  1. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    I had the this thought as I was falling asleep:

    The subjective experience solves problems via interlocking geometry of thoughts... a consciousness learns the "shape" of its thoughts and thinking is an act of geometric shifting of concepts themselves and how they relate to one another. It sees it in the way that the pieces of the puzzle have fallen into place for itself and then examines if the new thought or input or whatever fits somewhere in that schema.. however disorganized or illogical.

    It's kind of a subjective geometry in the sense that it is developed in only that instance and is representative of the relationships of the concepts to one another for that instance of consciousness. The thoughts are all somehow connected via 'consciousness' in kind of a nueral net fashion in real time. The shape of the nueral net gets changed over time as the geometry must change to allow new conceptual relationships.

    I'll try to clarify later.. I realize this is kind crap, I just wanted to get it up here and I'll see if it makes sense tomorrow. Maybe it's just a fancy way of saying what is completely obvious. *shrug*

    pardon.
     
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  3. Blindman Valued Senior Member

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    "Want to live with common people like you"

    Your subconsciousness introduces images,shapes, sounds, smells, feelings, pain, joy and generally talks shit.. It seam that your consciousness is the filter that defines the reality of crap running around in the subconscious brain.

    "I think there for I am" is an accident of subconscious bullshit that made sense to the conscious mind and was then put in writing.

    If it smells right it must be right..
     
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  5. Mucker Great View! Registered Senior Member

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    Very true, both of you!

    Freud wrote about consciousness is the way you are both describing. He said what is now subconscious, was once in the fore of our mine, i.e. conscious. It is only over time that a ego develops, and this is the reason we all develop.

    You may not wish to hear this psychological 'crap' but it is so true!

    The ego filters out many of the id's urges, so we are not even aware of them in everyday life, but the ego grows, it is not there from birth. It grows as a filters of the id.

    Freud (and his followers) beleive it is only when the ego is 'switched off', during sleep, that the true conscious can then be brought to the fore again. It is here the id displays it's real demands, in the forms of shapes and symbols in dreams.
     
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  7. Philosopher Wannabe Philosopher Registered Senior Member

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    wesmorris,
    I think I might be thinking about the same thing you are, not to sure. I was just finishing smoking a blunt, and I started thinking about how we categorized our information. And I started thinking, are shapes and geometry at the basis of our memories? Do some people categorize ideas and knowledge according to the shape they most closely resemble? This would all be done without us ever realizing and ever knowing of course.
     
  8. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Something like that yeah.. I'm actually thinking of it in terms of hmm.. how to explain.

    Say you have a shitload of dimensions accessable in your head. You have 283438743 degrees of freedom regarding the interpretation of your info. Now, your mind flits across each of these dimensions with ease since really it IS them. Your consciousness starts to note patterns in the dimensions over time. To you and only you in YOUR mind, you see shapes to these patterns.... as you progress in your understanding, the shapes become more pronounced. As you acquire new input, it's like like puzzle pieces. As you're contemplating junk.. You take puzzle pieces and try to jam them into the shapes you already have established...

    know what I mean?
     
  9. spookz Banned Banned

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    no. geometry as in triangles and squares and whatnot? eyeballing clouds/stars and naming em after animals? perhaps a connect the dots thingy? perhaps this?

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    or this?
     
  10. sargentlard Save the whales motherfucker Valued Senior Member

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    HMM interesting....

    Ok Wes so what do you think about the shifting of thoughts during dreams? If they are in the same defined, unknown, geometrical shape as they are in the concious time it must be a rather complicated shape. It also is ineteresting to note how your thought applies to the subconcious since during sleep the thoughts wander about on their own without our effort. In conciousness the thought process is done by us...some to such a degree that we almost don't even realize it but during sleep the pons takes over so does the pons jumble around these thoughts or does it put them together in a complex geometric shapes through planned and complicated nueron firing patterns???? and maybe they just seem jumbled to us because the frontal lobe is paralyzed during sleep so it fails to piece them together??? If your ideas pan out in any way that could represent a flaw in our desgn or a ingenius function to keep our sanity.

    or maybe i am BSing to the max

    What do you think???

    BTW this is what you think of while falling asleep..man i gotta hit the:m:
     
  11. spookz Banned Banned

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    worth exploring. perhaps dumping the "subjective" part of the topic might make a discussion less complex. it does seem strange to base thought on geometry rather than logic but perhaps the two are complementary or one is an extension of the other?
     
  12. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    I'm writing this part here after only having read that sentence, so as not to corrupt what I might say with your thoughts. My theory?: Dreams are the sorting out all the input from your day.. the big move from short term to long term storage.. at least a lot of house cleaning for all that. So your dreams are really just your mind sorting through your head and finding out where loose ends are and how to classify new shit. Note that if something doesn't jive with your particular configuration you may have recurring dreams or a lot of angst filled dreams about it.

    First, they aren't "unknown". You know them, it's just that they are particular to you. Regarding complexity: Driving is a very complicated task really, but once you've done it for a long time you don't even have to think about it. I can get from work to home without ever realizing I'm not paying attention. Kind of scary, but I'm just saying.. complexity can be dealt with as an aggregate.
    Exactly, there is no need to "reason" (especially in the social context offered by the frontal lobe) when the brain is just shuffling junk around, trying to figure out where to stash it such that it jives with the perspective (structure of thought/memory, etc) you've adapted over your life.
    Flaw? Hmm.. that implies purpose. I think each and every person or thing is absolutely perfect in that the function exactly how the universe allows them to by definition. Imperfection is only a reflection of human dissappointment, which is only a reflection of irrational or incorrect expectation.
    Hehe, I think I'm just as full of shit as you are.. but honestly I think there is merit to it or I wouldn't keep talking about it. I've enjoyed your comments.

    Oh, but honestly I have no idea if I'm just a pathetic crackhead or a badass craniac. I prefer the latter.

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    (thought I'm sure the truth lies somewhere in between eh?)
    Hehe, yeah. My brain is a total freakshow and I've got a lifetime pass!
     
  13. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Hmmm.. I'd say that one is a tool that leads to the other.. so.. yeah I suppose so. I only say "geometry" because that's how it seems to me. It's like a personal style geometry that everyone crafts for themselves... a whole multi-dimensional internal structure that can be partially encompassed in real time. Pieces come in shaped by your perception.. as such they "fit" somewhere in your schema of shit you've set up. When you "think" you are throwing this geometry around. It's like an erector set of dynamic concepts inside yoru noggin.

    Eh, I'm spent and going circular! I'll try back later!

    (to answer your question: geometry as in SHAPES.. and the way they fit together.. the way concepts relate to each other)
     
  14. Philosopher Wannabe Philosopher Registered Senior Member

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    It sounds good to me. But could you elaborate on how a thought process during sleep might occur, and what shape a thought might be. How we percieve these geometric shapes in ideas. I understand that the shapes might not be classic shapes such as a square, but a combination of different shapes. Is that correct?
     
  15. sargentlard Save the whales motherfucker Valued Senior Member

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    Thank You Wes.

    So Cognitive schemas can be practised and mastered geometric assembly of thoughts and learned experiences that your concious doesn't even need to waste time with...it just calls on your Subconcious to take care of that...(much like your driving home without even thinking about it)....????.....Well my reason for bringing up dreams was why does the brain put together thoughts that make no sense but they do make sense in way that when we intake the stimulus from them they seem to be presented in a fictious relam within our mind......they are not presented like a slide show but rather in a unique way......what i was originally getting at was that could dreams be a geometric shaped assembly of firing activity but for some reason we evolved to block that activites significance out for the most part????? am i making sense..possibly no...but thank you for reading them.

    It's funny really we are debating on a completely far out idea that may very well be significant or the exact opposite...HMMM...*wonders what would have happened if Einstein had hit the ganjha*....

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  16. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    INTERESTING!

    I have this idea that the thinking process itself ties back to the very first time a hominid looked at the world around him and saw things in them some 2-300,000 years ago. Something like saying this human knack for being 'incursive' is what led to language and thinking anway.

    ok, maybe that sounding crappy, better say it this way:
    the whole process of tool making involved seeing things in things- from arrowheads in stone to ax handles in tree trunks. Is not language built that way? Isn't grammar a geometry of phonemes within phonemes? word as noun, noun in sentence, sentence in paragraph, paragraph in novel? arrowhead in stone?

    granted, my idea may be wacky but since there supposedly is a totality to everything, I'm beginning to think that the mind's basic building blocks ARE geometrical. They have to be, or if not at least mathematically beautiful. How else could we be shedding brain cells by the second and still keep memories coherent so damn..........magically?
     
  17. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Trying to clear up the other junk I said

    the round peg fits in the round hole. this is because of the relationship of their shapes is complementary.

    You have place (existing shape) that is representative of your experience:

    imagine shape x933439 in your mind that 'feels' like 'a bucket of chicken with butter on it in 1972'. You can kind of smell it and taste it. You can visualize the funky buttery gunk on the crispy chicken and it makes you want to hurl a little. This is a shape. Say it's a round hole.

    Now you have an input:

    eat some fried chicken and reach for the butter on the next table to butter your rolls. you hear a few bars from jefferson airplane. Let's call that a round peg.

    Now you think about what happens when this input comes across your consciousness:

    The round peg fits in the round hole and a synergy of sorts ensues. Maybe just an integration of sorts. You might get a feeling of deja vu (depending on if the butter gets on the chicken (gross!)). I'm not sure but your history and your present mind merge for a moment. In a sense you exist in two points in time at the same time, if you stop and notice.. a strange feeling comes along with this realization.

    Really though, you only are now. There is only now as the past and future are abstract, yet you FEEL the past and you FEEL the future. It's an interesting phenomena - consciousness is, a simulated juxtaposition of ever progressing experience with all kinds of feedback goodness. Awe yeah.

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    Last edited: Jun 17, 2003
  18. Mephura Applesauce, bitch... Valued Senior Member

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    I can dig it man...

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    I like what you've got going so far, but I would say that alot of that isn't really subconscious. Its kinda a quazi area between conscious and subconscious. Also could this also tie into train of thought/creative/intuitive leaps in the thought process. Say like round peg goes to octogon hole and hexagon hole. doesn't fit either, but almost does. So the mind then links those differnent ideas and form a strange connection between say the galaxies and kaleidoscopes or something. This goes through the same process over and over untill we have a match or a idea about something. Kind of like mapping an intuitive leap using circular thought.

    (what the hell am I saying? Does this make sense at all???)
     
  19. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    So I thought I was all like, smart and stuff with my example thingy, but uhm... hey... no input? Did the example make it worse? More stupid? Whassup peeps, don't leave me hangin.

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  20. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Related stuff from another thread

    In essence, I think humans think in abstracted time. The basic conscious organization of historic input being filed into conceptual relationships which all 'feel like time' because in essence they are a reorganized regurgitation of it. They are the impression in the 'inner clay' (so to speak), the resultant of to experienced time being broken down and categorized it into the inner network of concepts (inherently unique to the individual). All of this such that we might survive the constant changes in the physical world due to the 'passage of time' (which I have a sort of problem with in some ways because there is no actual time (the past and future are only abstracts) other than "the present" (Okay, I realize that technically other times exist given other inertial reference frames but I don't think they are relavent to the point, or maybe they are on a fundamental level in that this phenomenon contributes to the fact that the condition of consciousness can exist in the first place)).

    for instance, say you have five sheets of rubber stretched out. as time passes, each of five senses plus a combinatory feedback loop makes an impression into the rubber sheet that corresponds to the appropriate sense... the feedback loop makes an impression which is integrated as the appropriate weight applies to each sheet. if each sheet were digitally overlapped there would be places where all five existed in the same space. That would for its own shape, or 'solution set' might be considered the 'sum of consciousness' at any time p (the present). the rubber sheet stretches and stretches, changing over a whole life. The solution set is merely the resultant of these changes with the integrated feedback loop.


    I realize "time" is a weird thing to say that we think in, but by it I mean something like "a chronilogical oriented abstracted subjective experience" .
     
  21. spookz Banned Banned

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    lets try rational thought:
    thinking is logical, mathematical in form, it is universal. if mental abstractions are represented visually, then we should all have the same pictures floating around in our heads.

    or how about simple mental association:
    object is named. subsequent naming will produce associated image in mind

    *i cant help but think that something very basic to human cognition is being needlessly complicated. however i cannot put my finger on it so........
     
  22. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Okay, well flip that thought around. I earnestly think that logic is embedded in that which is abstract. The reason it is universal is because it can be deduced from the objective aspect of existence, and moreso.. logic/reason exists as potential before actualized by thought. So really, we address this potential subjectively. A few simple observations (1+1=2), once made, lead to emergant properties. The only manner in which this universal thought can be realized it through subjective exploration right? So while yes the reasoning is universal (once assumptions are established like 1=1 and such) the instance thereof is always subjective. Hell man the fundies become automated 2+2=4 in my head by memory. If I reason it out and envision it, you can about garauntee that the way I do it won't be the exact same way that anyone else does it.
    certainly, but if I talk about a pink sweater, is it the same one you think about? certainly if I talk about the number 1 it's the same eh? I doubt it. I'm sure it's similar, but I'd guess that every individual's mental picture of '1' and the associated concepts related to it are slightly different by definition of the subjective experience.
    Agreed.. I think I've got my finger on it actually, but when I move my damn finger it dissappears. Stupid finger.

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  23. Xenu BBS Whore Registered Senior Member

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    Wes, I have a theory that is similar to yours, but deals with emotions instead of geometry. I noticed you used the word "FEEL" in capital letters, this makes me think that we are even more likely talking about the same thing. Well here's the gist of it...

    From our senses we get all kinds of data. Also throughout our body we get all kinds of input as to what's going on. Neurologically all this stuff meets up in the brain. No "brainer" so far, yes I know.

    Now think of the brain as a huge system of complex switches (neurons). All of this data flips these different switches in different ways. The neuron switches are individual but as groups, certain functions emerge (gestalts). These groups are parts to larger wholes, and more and more functions emerge.

    The brain as a whole produces a continuously changing (as a result of all of the changing data that comes in) gestalt. This giant configuration of everything active in our brains is our emotion. It's a general "feel" about what's going on in our lives. It's a schema in constant flux.

    Humans also have developed language, a way of simplifying emotion, and convey it to others. We take our feelings, and abstract symbols for them. "This isn't what I mean, but it's the closest word I can think of." Think of why thesaurases are so popular.

    The combination of emotion and language makes what we call consciousness.

    I hope this is clear. It makes sense in my head, but language doesn't convey it to well. I have a different picture of emotion than most people. Please ask questions if you need clarification. I may need to start a new thread though...
     
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