Star Wars vs Star Trek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Pollux V, May 9, 2002.


Which universe would win?

  1. Star Trek

    227 vote(s)
  2. Star Wars

    268 vote(s)
  3. Spaceballs

    47 vote(s)
  4. Farscape

    12 vote(s)
  5. Dune

    50 vote(s)
  6. Stargate

    36 vote(s)
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  1. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    1. it's not just that. the transporter does decompose and compose your body from a saved pattern prior to the energizing process. all it would take to "remade someone into a younger person" would be a stored pattern or in this case a "space-time anomaly". why the Feds do not have stored patterns of themselves and therefor the key to iternal youth is another question. perhaps the pattern could/would override their neural network as well, thus reverting them to their former memories.

    2. besides, the being was not compressed it was shrinked. do you recall it retained the exact same shape and proportions which is not likely to happen if gass gets compressed.

    3.Q were defacto responcible for the anomaly. seing how Q resented suicide, it makes no sence at all they would risk their own destruction by inducing an anomaly that would destroy them. unless they were eighter imune to it, or could stop it any time they wished so. since they seam able to manipulate and create space-time and alternate realities i'd say its safe to asume they are a tough opsticle to tackle.

    4.not just that, E.T. and ST are in different universes, X-Men and ST too. in ST the end of the 20th century was marked by the Voyager probes (not just 2) and the Eugenic Wars. bot events (especially the latter) is unique to the ST universe...

    and TWS, multiple realities and timelines are a part of the multiverse.
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  3. Enterprise-D I'm back! Warp 8 Mr. Worf! Registered Senior Member

    I wouldn't use "decompose"; it implies deterioration or aging. The transporter is a matter to energy converter. It stores the digital equivalent of the subject's particulate structure, and fires the reconstruction emitter which reconverts the energy to the constituent particles of matter.

    Best I can describe it with a paraphrase.

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    However, this means that the transporter SHOULD only work like a photocopier...reproducing exact copies of what it scanned in the first place. The contributing factor to the "Rascals" episode was an unexplained energy anomaly (perhaps the same rejuvenating radiation as in "Insurrection"?). Clearly this anomaly is not part of the design, hence not necessarily repeatable.

    Freaking EARTH is not in the SW franchise! LOL. Merely because there are humans there does not automatically include an Earth.
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  5. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    even if it is, its still woth nothing. it is not the same Earth. this goes double for Marvel comics that had their timelines reseted dosens of times. not to mention X-Men are not the present Earth (universe) eighter (as far as most comics go) and SW and ET are suposed to be.
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  7. Fafnir665 You just got served. Registered Senior Member

    Hasn't the ST universe already diverged from ours?
  8. Fafnir665 You just got served. Registered Senior Member


    There was an episode in the picard ST where they found scotty in a transporter buffer after a few decades, he had crashed or something, preserving himself until rescue could arrive...
  9. leopold Valued Senior Member

    the episode was called "relics"
    there were two patterns stored in the buffer. scotty survived, the other one didn't.
  10. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    yes and time seams to have stoped for him.
  11. Enterprise-D I'm back! Warp 8 Mr. Worf! Registered Senior Member

    Remember, it was quite vividly described that the transporter was re-engineered, such that the pattern stored in the device's memory buffer was constantly fed by a regenerative power source and that the transporter was blocked from firing the reintegration beam.

    Don't forget this was a Scotty special that worked for him...and of course conveniently on him alone rather than his ill fated colleague. The design therefore could be regarded as highly dangerous...not to mention sort of useless (outside of survival) if you exist as a digital pattern, unable to experience anything for the entire time.
  12. Saquist Banned Banned

    I'd take that.
  13. leopold Valued Senior Member

    it was locked in a continuous diagnostic cycle.
    i'll have to dig up the episode and watch it. (i have them all, the original and TNG)
    the particulars that are being discussed here are at the very beginning of it.
  14. Enterprise-D I'm back! Warp 8 Mr. Worf! Registered Senior Member

    1,898 don't have to dig up the DVD, it's described in detail on Memory Alpha. The writers (most likely) took the time to do this to stress that this was not the intended design. That's why the other guy had to illustrate exactly how dangerous it was.
  15. phoenixredwolf Registered Senior Member

    To shine some light on this debate

    The on going debate of Star Trek vs. Star Wars is fueled by misinformation and strong loyalty to one or the other.

    Let us look at what may happen if the Empire was to collide with the Federation.
    First we need to set up the scene. We will assume that the Empire is that which we see in movies 4,5, and 6. The Federation is what we see during TNG or thereabouts. Now we have a choice, this can take place in the Star Wars universe or the Star Trek universe. Well the only reason to pick one over the other would be the existence of the force. I don't believe it would matter one way or the other since as far as we know only Darth Vader and the Emperor would have this ability to use the Force. They may be able to tip the balance some but not enough to be of any relevance in this.

    Now then lets begin with the battle. What are the advantages of the Empire? Obviously sheer numbers. The Empire controls over half the galaxy (which we assume to be about the size of our milky way). With this comes the resources to build massive fleets. The Empire seems to have more advanced building techniques as well since they can build so many star destroyers and of course the Death Star.

    Another advantage for the Empire is hyper drive. It seems to be far faster than Warp drive. Keep in mind that these two are incompatible and there for we will see no FTL battles. Though I don't believe the Empire's ships can even do battle in hyperspace.

    Now as for the Federation they have superior shields (or so it seems from what has been shown).

    Federation has far better sensors (for one they actualy hit their intended targets more often than not - unlike the Empire's ships).

    Now on to weapons. I think photon torpedoes pack a bit of a punch. In fact they have a theoretical yield of over 60 megatons (by assuming 1kg of antimatter and using the formula E=MC^2). Now the effective yield is less but still impressive. Imagine what 250 of these (about the compliment for the Enterprise D I do believe) would do to anything let alone a star destroyer. Not that it is realistic for the Enterprise to unload all of its torpedoes on one ship.

    Now on to energy weapons. Ah now here is a heavy debate. Phasers are indeed superior to the turbo lasers sported by the Star Destroyers. However what about their yields? Doesn't the technical manual (for TNG) state that type X phasers have a maximum yield of only 5.1MW? Yes it does. But I tell you this is false or at least misleading. the website, w w w dot ditl dot org has articles on the subject of phasers that will explain how the yield of phasers must be far greater than 5.1MW to do the damage seen in Star Trek The Next Generation. In fact they would likely be in the tens of thousands of terawatts. So to those that say the gigawatt turbo lasers pack a bigger punch I say no. BUT, it could be that the technical manual is right! How? Well it has to do with how phasers work. Phaser stands for Phased Energy Rectification. They use the rapid nadeon effect. Nadeons are what phaser beams are made of. (NOT ANTIMATTER) These nadeons are what allows phasers to stun, heat, or vaporize. In fact if phasers were not made out of this but out of say, positrons, then the vaporization would be impractical. Normally something capable of vaporization would likely destroy everything in the general vicinity due to the energy output. But nadeons (not real mind you) cause matter to phase and transition out of this continuum. (don't ask how this works is fiction after all) So in short phasers are superior.

    But how much better are phasers? Not necessarily as much as one may think. I've heard the argument that turbo lasers (being lasers) cannot even penetrate the navigational shields of the Enterprise D. This comes from an episode were it was stated that the laser weapons sported by some alien race could not do much damage.

    Well I have two problems with this. One is that if the lasers were powerful enough they likely could do some damage. Now keep in mind Federation shields use electromagnetic, gravimetric, and subspace technology. We don't know how lasers would affect these types of shields. They may not do a thing no matter how strong. But then again they might. Now second people are assuming the turbo lasers are the same thing as concentrated beams of light (lasers) but I argue this point. By looking at the behavior of the weapons I say they are actually plasma based not light based. The beams seen on the movies are actually bolts of highly energetic plasma. So though phasers are better, they do not win by a land slide.

    With all this I'd even go as far as saying nearly all Federation technology is superior. Examples would be holographic technology (the Empires holograms are about as good as modern day ones!) and transporters. Now I rule out transporters as viable weapons in this scenario if I did not perhaps they would give the Feds an edge. But I rarely have seem them used tactically.

    After analogizing the points made here I would conclude that reasoning for both sides has been flawed and the winner will not be decided as easily. But for all intents and purposes I would like to bet on the Empire. Mostly for their enormous size and resources. If nothing else they and squash the technologically superior federation with overwhelming force using fleets upon fleets of star destroyers.

    The battle would not be won quickly especially because the Empire would miss so often. But of course if they used tie fighters maybe that would help. Ah but wait tie fighters would likely not do jack against a Federation capital ship. Yes this is true, but with the Empire having so many the Feds would be accidentally running into them all the time wearing down the Fed's shields.

    So in the end the Empire prevails, but barely.
  16. phoenixredwolf Registered Senior Member

    I'd have to interject here that what you mention doesn't happen nearly as much in TNG. The Enterprise D one far more often than did the original ship. The crew most certainly put up more of a fight. I don't really remember too many times were they landed on a planet, got ambushed, had their phasers and communicators taken away, and the captain and first officer thrown into an old fashioned jail cell. This did seem to happen virtually every episode in TOS however.

    I will agree they did use diplomacy though. After all the Federation was founded on principles of peace. The Empire was, well, founded on the ideals of a power hungry mad man.
  17. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    redwolf, i have to argue one point:

    The Ent-D is old tech- use the Ent-E

    Also, TIE's would never hit a Fed Cap Ships's shields - the navigational deflector would knock them out of the way and, if not, rapid-fire, low power bursts from the dorsal and ventral phaser arrays would quickly wipe out the fleet of ties. Failing that, a few proximity-burst Quantum Torps would make short work of em - though it'd probably be easier to reinforce the forward shields and ram em *shrugs*
  18. antaran_1979 Registered Senior Member

    welcome to the argument phoenix, if you have the time, take a look at the last 300-200 pages (i know it's a lot, but much of it is repeating), they have some good analasyss on the weapons used in both franchises

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  19. distantcube Registered Member

  20. Gumbias Registered Member

    I first apologize if this is a repeat. I read through a few hundred posts and have seen no mention of a few factors to the advantage of ST over SW
    First of all a few very important ships that could make a huge difference are

    The Delta Flyer assuming this is after the return of Voyager and Starfleet put them into mass production.

    Voyage with the Borg enhancements

    My personal favorite: The Defiant/ Sao Paulo Not only standard shields but a ablative of hull armor, a Romulan cloaking device, Quantum torpedoes with a yield of 21.8 isotons, Photon Torpedoes packing 25 isotons enough to level an entire city, and pulsed and beam phasers. By far the coolest Fed ship ever. The defiant alone could take on a squad of Tie’s not to mention if the Fed had a squad of them.

    Don’t forget the Runabouts for they are fairly maneuverable and fairly well armed as well

    From the Voyager episode (Message in a Bottle) with Andy Dick (as the EMH-2) the
    NX-02 the Prometheus which could separate into 3 separate highly maneuverable ships to rain death on the pathetic excused of an empire.

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    Tri-cobalt devices and other subspace weapons that could be used if needed if the Fed was backed against the wall. I do understand they were banned by second Khitomer Accord. But you can’t tell me that they can’t throw one together quick.

    Now getting to the destruction of an entire planet, no problem the Xindi weapon would destroy the Death Star with out breaking a sweat. Which I might add happened 200 years before this battle is set to take place.

    Now the real kick in the balls! Give the Dominion a call they have a surplus supply of drug addicted clones of there own the Gem'Hadar and the Vorta. Not to mention the Breen with their energy dampening weapon.

    Not to say that the Fed would not take a beating but the combined forced of the Borg, Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Breen, Cardassians and the Dominion.

    And another doesn’t forget Danials the temporal agent from “Enterprise”. He could just go back in time and whack Anikin before Qui Gon even landed on Tatooine, and then Bada Bing no empire.

    Thank for reading not sure if you can tell which way I am leaning. I like both but Star Trek takes first prize with me, and I can’t wait till May for the new Star Trek the Trailer looks firggin awesome.

    "Peace and Long life"
  21. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

  22. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Thank you Gumbias... someone had to say it.

    Absolute Worst Case Scenario - DS makes it to earth and *boom*:

    Future Federation (Ent-J or even just the USS incursion) goes back in time and off's Anikin, assasinates Palpatine, and bitchslaps Mace Windu for letting a whiny bitch-prick get him killed

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  23. Lord Vasago bcd Registered Senior Member

    there are a few things every one seems to forget

    opening sentece of SW

    a LONG TIMEAGO in a GALAXY far far away

    SW is Past St is future but all in the same universe so if ST ever would stand a chance there should be some sort of time distortian because if it would happen in ST time sw would be far more evolved than is seen in episode 6

    so St should not take the risk of using time. what if the human missing link is a lost ship from SW woooooooot

    ST and SW being the same universe i stay with my statement that Q could be evolved Jedi. allso that there are midichorien in ST hahahaha

    PS Q states himself to be omnipent but he is allso full of himself so why would we even believe him. I'm not saying the Q aren't powerfull. Hell they are one of the most evolved species in all sci-fi and i'm quit fond of him as he is quit funny. but omnipent ?? i don't think so.
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