Star Wars vs Star Trek

Star Trek wins because Star Wars doesn't have Klingons that can circle Uranus.

Nuff said.

 

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Forget that. The mischievous Q will win.

 

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Here is the thing, those of us with a fully functional brain can do what is called suspension of disbelief, aka act as if what we see were really possible and real. I don't trust the tech manual for my numbers I used modern physics and observation to calculate my number.

After reading what is below I am still waiting for the quality.

As I said before my assertion is over observation.

Okay, so we have a group of races led technologically by the humans and the Vulcan who manage to stick their nose where it doesn't belong and pick a amjor war every few decades. In Eighty years fromTOS to TNG their phaser power increased 100% their shielding by the same number and their photon torpedoes are virtually identical. Their opponenets have not invented anything new either. Plus despite several wars none of the sides have figured out how to heavily armor their ships, or at least paint them black. I will note that in all of these great Interstellar conflicts (the Dominion Wars being the biggest) the Federation had not even risked as many people as World War One.

The New Republic was never really at peace, except for the last 1500 years of it's existance. There were countless wars both big and small over the previous 23500 years. There were several Sith Wars, endless trade disputes, pirates, bandit lords, invaders, skirmishes with Hapans and Hutts, Skirmishes between systems. Plus there was the 75,000 years before that which was exploration and warfare, the Golden Age of the Sith, and countless other conflicts with private armies. Warfare and Pirates were so common place ships were allowed to carry Thermonuclear warheads in the gigaton range for a nominal fee.

I admit the jedi got complacent, it happened when a new Code developed 600 years pre Yoda. Before then the Jedi were encouraged to make attachments, marry, breed, have friends, fight for cuases and so on. Allong came the There is no Emotion There is only the Force code and all that went through the window.

Devastating Weapon Systems. One of the most heavily Shielded ships in Star Trek can't take more than two hits froma 400 gigawatt weapon. 400 gigawats? Less power than it takes to light a major city. Two shots and the Enterprise D was left shieldless and damaged. meanwhile against those same eggshell shields It takes dozens of phaser hits and Photon hits for the same result. What could the Enterprise D do againt a weapon that had a lower end of 100,000 gigawatts? What could it do against a ship that takes mulitple 100,000 gigawatt hits before it's shielding is strained, and then can take dozens more and keep firing back? What could it do to a ship that has Sixty of these powerful weapons? The answer not damn much,

Okay so now I have to explain things

-In the Star Wars universe important planets have Planetary Shielding. These shielding units are incredible powerful. You could drop a Luna size chunk of rock on Alderaan and it would just be a bright flash of light. The Death Star had enough power it did not matter what defenses you had, the planet was going to be destroyed and quite throughly.

-in Doomsday Machine, Decker after a disasterous first encounter with the Machine dropped off his entire crew and tried again. After the Machine crippled his ship he was left to watch the Doomsday device slowly devour the planet. It was also formulated that aa 100 megaton explosion would be all that was needed to cripple the Doomsday machine. What I find interesting is it took a whole Constitution class starship to do it, they didn't even think the use photon torpedos

-In the using the phasers against a planet with Shield, there would have to have been some other reason not to use the Phasers, after all they have been used several times against planets with no discernable effect. hell the one huge asteroid that was the size of our moon they only made a tiney spec glow red hot and that was with over loading the phasers and throughing the entire ships power into it.

Your opinion is flawed, the facts dispute you.

Oh, so you calling several million united colonists versus perhaps a million faction ridden natives a good comparison? Not even on the best day. Besides by the time the Indian were defeated they were using the same technology. They were beaten by an enemy that had superior numbers and resoources. Think on that. When you compare the Federation with a few Trillion sentients to the Empire whose capital world had 12 trillion sentients not counting droids.

 

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Well, one could argue that Star Trek wins becuase it doesn't have embarassing klingons that encirlce Uranus. Peace.

 

You misunderstand me. Suspension of disbelief is a fine behavoir and necessary if one wants to enjoy virtually any movie. I was only discussing some potential flaws in your argumentation paradigm.

Same here. You simply may not see the "quality" in my more qualitative analysis of the situation, but I don't see the "quality" in comparing completely arbitrary numbers and calculations.

It's a mere difference of opinion, certainly nothing to become heated about.

You make some good points, but consider this: You assume that the weapons technology hasn't advanced simply because Starfleet is still using the same names they were using 200 years ago--phaser and photon torpedo. However, consider the broad context of real history. A flintlock and a fully automatic rifle are both commonly referred to as "guns," and even the principles under which they operate are extremely similar. Yet, the destructive ability of one is vastly superior to that of the other. It's very likely that phasers have seen similar development. Also, I would point out that, in the Star Trek series, there was a clear transition between two competely different technologies--laser and phasers. So, clearly, they did "invent something new."

Armor strength is a concept that is completely relative to technological advancement. Knights of the Crusades, for instance, wore very heavy armor, while our modern day police department wears teflon vests, which are infinitely lighter than chainmail. Yet, the latter is far better suited to stopping bullets.

Untrue. Sixty billion people were lost in the war with the Klingons when the Enterprise C polluted the time line.

But you do acknowledge the existence of 1500 years of peace in the Old Republic. The Federation has rarely seen 50, hence its emphasis on weapon's development.

As I said earlier, debating arbitrary numbers is pointless, especially when the series itself is so inconsistent when providing these numbers. For instance, in the Enterprise episode Fight or Flight, Reed states that the NX Enterprise's weapons can generate power in the terawatt ranger. And remember, this is supposedly the earliest incarnation of Star Trek. Furthermore, in the TNG episode Fight or Flight, Picard intimates that the Enterprise's phasers are capable of producing blasts in the terawatt range.

Ergo, given all this inconsistency, I prefer a more qualitative analysis of Star Trek and Star Wars.

This was never my argument. I was merely explain that Scotty was fearful of using the Enterprise phasers against a planet for fear of destroying it. The shieldind reference was superfluous.

Not entirely accurate. A 100 megaton explosion could only disable the Planet Killer from the inside. Its outer hull was made of neutronium, a virtually impenetrable substance. Photon Torpedoes are more than capable of producing that yield, but the Planet Killer wasn't likely to recognize a blatant weapon as sustenance and willingly ingest it. It had to be tricked, and Kirk did just that. He rigged the Defiant's impulse engines (not its matter/antimatter reactor) to explode and flew the crippled Defiant through the creature's maw.

That's because phasers aren't always used at full power. Blasting through the planetary shield would require full phaser power, and it's well documented that the Enterprise has more than enough power to destroy an entire planet.

Suspension of disbelief is one thing. Treating completely fictitious constructs as if they are factual is something entirely different.

I concede that my opinion is likely very flawed, but as any rational person can see, there are no facts here, sir, merely conjecture.

Are you seriously intimating that the Star Wars Universe isn't factionalized? It seems that there were a number of factions vying for power throughout the Star Wars movies. Furthermore, from what historical source material are you obtaining these population figures? The entire population of England didn't exceed 8 million until 1800; therefore, it's highly unlikely that there would have been "several million" English colonists in America during the Colonization Period. In fact, the colonial population did not reach 2.5 million until 1775. By contrast, scholars have placed the pre-colonization Native American Population at 10 million at the very lowest and 100 million at the very highest. Either way, my point stands. Superior technology does, on occasion, overcome superior numbers. Colonial America is certainly an example.

 

No, the abilities of Impulse Engines are matter of watching to show. In other words its a matter of public knowlegde. You just haven't watched the show.

Just so, thus apparently he does.

Lucas is on record saying it's not cannon.

Since there are no calcuations for destructive fire power for Star Wars and since those books you hold as cannon do not show massive fire power. Star Trek really takes this one.

You astound me. This is not the design of the saucer it's the purpose of the saucer...any shape could suit that purpose. So you know nothing of warp field theory. I guess theres nothing wrong with that.

Yes, I know. You made up figures and then present them as cannon.
All I have to say about that is....well...you've said it yourself....

 

I must flag this statement as False. Dr. Carol Marcus states in ST II that the Federation was responsible for Two Hundred Years of Peace.

I concur. ENTERPRISE has to be completely thrwn out on that basis. If Carol Marcus is correct then the cataclysm that ravaged Florida should have never happened. The producers of this show displayed a blatent lack of consideration for the past that was already established.

I think that is farfetched "The die is Cast" as reference. While the Romulan Fleet Destroyed the crust of the founder home planet I don't think the danger to the planet was complete destruction.

Phasers have shown a wide range of destructive ability...From blowing whole parts of Cubes into oblivion to vaporizing a kilometer deep tunnel though the surface.

Ultimately the phaser wins over the turbo laser. When we look at the tops each weaon is capable of...The Base Delta Zero took hours and mulitple ships to accomplish. After less than a minute of firing the Cardassian Romulan fleet reduced a significant portion of the Founders home world to molten slag.

The other example is the warship that single handedly scorched the entire surface of a planet from TNG. The crew was shocked that someone would do this to a colony not that it was possible.

Defiant it's self showed the ability to effect a planet on a large scale with Quatum casings. Star Trek is just smarter the way it goes about it's tech.

 

This is the crux of my departure from what is "canon".

 

I think the good Dr. Marcus may have been exaggerating somewhat for the benefit of her rebellious son.

The Federation wasn't even officially founded until 2161, while the events chronicled in Star Trek II occured in 2285. That's barely 125 years, much less 200. Furthermore, during the 200 years prior to Marcus' comments, the Federation and Star Fleet had experienced 50 years of continuous hostility with the Klingons and a violent four year war with the Romulans.

I agree. This misunderstanding is just a matter of setting parameters for "planetary destruction, " which, in Star Trek terms, likely describes reduing a planet's crust to molten slag. In fact, in A Taste of Armageddon, Kirk orders Scotty to carry out General Order 24 if he is not released. Scotty then states that the entire inhabited surface of Eminir VII would be destroyed. And we should note that this level of destructive power was well within the capabilities of the TOS Enterprise.

Agreed. Star Trek weapons technology and tactics rely far less on brute force - a definite indication of military refinement.

 

No you were being a pretentious jerk and trying to inject reality inot a conversation that doesn't really need any.

They would be arbitrary if we had seen neither side do anything on screen. For purposes of this any viewed phenomena that can be analyzed and approximated is.

And perhaps it is.

Actually using Tasha's quotes they only improved Phaser and Shielding power 25 to 50% in 30+ years. Hell Reliant class vessels were stilled used as front line ships 80 years after the luanch of the first one. Photon torpedoes had not changed in apparant speed or effect. I admit the phasers were increased and wisely given wider arcs, but considering the type of innovation you were intimating they should have had much more powerful weapons and shields, which they obviously didn't if 400 gigawatts was above what the shields could handle.

This maybe true but even a cop will tell you that the biggest advantage to kevlar is you can move in it. Police still die in those vests. Obviously Star Wars has found a shieldng and armoring technology that can literally stop gigaton level beams of coherent light. Star Trek would still have problems with 20th century nuclear weapons as it would only take 95.7 kilotons to produce the same strain on the shields that a 400 gigawatt antiproton beam did.

Yes, but when they crossed back one ship of 1200 died. Even the Dominion war pales next to World War one.

Actually there was well more than a hundred and twenty five. But I said 1500 years of relative peace, meaning that there were no Hutt or Happan aggressions. There were still inter system disputes, piracy, raider, and the odd little warlord or two, as well a Sith remanents. Kind of like the world today compared to World War II.

That is why we go by visual effect and statements concerning shields. They may mess up the weapons, but the shields are consistant. Besides they may generate terawatts but just how efficent are they if they can't penetrate a 400 gigawatt shield.

Here is the problem, you tried for a qualitive assessment and failed, becuase you did not define what you meant. You were basing assumptions on some general history and not on explaining phenomena. The visuals should be your guide not neccesarily the dialogue.

As I have researched he was not afraid of destroying the planet so much as destroying the ability of the world to support life. A Constitution class starship given a few days could easily reduce a planet to a muddy rock. Hell in just a few minutes they could put it in a nuclear winter.

Man, I knew people were stupid, Photon torpedoes are capable of .99C as witnessed many times and they are capable of being guided or left behind as mines. If they were capable of 100 megatons (they are not) then they could have done anything from firing to laying them out like candy. That beam could not have deflect too many at a time. Truth is that Photons are not even in the megaton range, visuals have never supported this. They are in the kiloton range probably around 60 to 90.

Really have we seen it done? No. We have seen fleets of thirty Romulan ships only tearing the hell out of the surface of a world.

When disbelief is suspended the visuals are facts.

Ah studied too much star trek history and not enough American history. The native americans were not trully in peril until after the US Civil War.

 

Actually I am a great fan of the show and movies. I have spoken with Gene Roddenberry persoanlly twice before he died. I have spoken with majel three times. I have conversed with some of the most ardent fans of the series. All of them concede that in a war the Empire would prevail as the victor and would have taken minimal losses.

Actually he is on record of saying where everything else does not directly conflict with the Movies is canon. Paramount is on record as saying on ly the shows and movies.

But using what we know of physics to calculate the power needed to do what we see on screen is using canon.

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I know of warp field threory, shape of the vessel doesn't mean a thing speed wise. Hell the Borg cubes are faster than the Enterprise and they are Cubes!

 

Pretentious jerk?

Funny.

The word “pretentious” clearly has entirely different meanings to the two of us because I can’t recall making any assumptions of dignity or importance here. If you disagree and would like to reproduce these instances of alleged pretentious behavior, I will happily discuss them with you.

Furthermore, I have been neither insulting nor condescending. I certainly haven’t questioned anyone’s intelligence or called anyone stupid. I merely expressed disagreement with a few of your points and your paradigmatic approach to argumentation. I never even stated that you were wrong.

A person is not pretentious simply because he disagrees with you. Disagreement is, in fact, part of life.

And I can assure you that I was not attempting to bring even the slightest of element of realism into this. I was actually trying to introduce more of a literary-style analysis into the debate, and there is nothing more impalpable than literary analysis. Take it from someone who majored in English at both the graduate and undergraduate levels.

Actually, viewed phenomena are extremely arbitrary when they are based on no tangible reality. This is the case in any special effect. For instance, after watching a Star Destroyer vaporize a small asteroid, we can all marvel at the awesome power of the turbo laser if we assume that the asteroid was composed of iron and nickel rather than ice and rock. And, because the asteroid only exists as a prop (a potato, in this case), there’s no way of accurately analyzing or approximating its composition as the celestial body that it’s supposed to represent; therefore, we’re forced to come to a completely arbitrary conclusion.

Much of your argument is predicated on one comment found in the TNG episode The Survivors, in which the Enterprise D’s shields were scrambled by “400 gigawatts of particle energy,” according to Worf. We should note, however, that this is only one comment in the entire Star Trek universe. It is stated many other times that the Enterprise’s phasers can easily produce power outputs in the terawatt range. Even the phase cannons of the NX Enterprise could generate bursts of 4 terawatts. We also know from both “statements” and “visual effects” that multiple phaser blasts are required before a Federation shield will collapse; therefore, one could easily argue that the Enterprise’s shield can withstand many, many terawatts of energy.

However, these gigawatt and terawatt numbers are so ambiguous and inconsistent that both of us can easily cherry pick the numbers that best fit our arguments, and we would be perfectly justified in whatever we choose. And it is this ambiguity that serves as the very basis of my opinion against such a staunchly quantitative approach to the entire Star Wars versus Star Trek debate. In Star Wars, meaningful numerical values are virtually nonexistent, while in Star Trek, they’re completely arbitrary.

.

…not to one Tasha Yar, whom you quoted so prominently mere paragraphs ago. ; )

Not really. During that 125 years, the Romulan War was fought and was followed by 50 years of continuous aggression with the Klingons, not to mention the innumerable skirmishes with the Orion and Gorn.

Actually, I defined my meanings and intentions quite clearly. I explained the type of analysis that I intended to use, the parameters of that analysis, and the evidence that fit those parameters. Whether or not you agreed with it is a different matter entirely.

I disagree. “Visuals” are subject to both technological and financial limitations, while words and dialogue are not. Through language, a person can express his meaning and intentions far more precisely. In TOS, for instance, special effects limitations created much ambiguity concerning both the location of the Enterprise’s main phaser array and the appearance of a phaser stream. Words are not infallible by any means, but they are, in my opinion, more reliable than special effects.

But you’ve heard it explained.

Untrue. In the TNG episode “Skin of Evil,” the Enterprise fires a single photon torpedo onto the surface of Armus’ planet below. Upon impact, the bridge view screen displays a fire ball that is visible from orbit. Given the size of both the fireball and Armus’ planet, we can calculate a blast yield of approximately 500 megatons.

This may be true if any and all ambiguity can be dismissed, which isn’t the case here.

Native American tribes that were enslaved, eliminated, and displaced by colonial America would likely disagree with you. In fact, during the Civil War, the South was promising reparation to displaced Native Americans in a futile attempt to generate sympathy for its cause.

 

Okay, Hotspur, first you want to use the the suspension of disbelief to analyze the two political histories. Then you want to disbelieve the visual effects, unrefuted dialog, and our own observations becuase they do not fit your model. You can't have it both ways. If we are going to have the political history then we are going to have the visual, unrefuted dialog, and direct observation. We will also go by the Canon material. This is a debate, a scientific debate, not a pissing contest.

BTW even if the Asteroid was water the required Joules/Watts would be 7,890,424,108,756,120.00+ as water is one of the hardest material to inflence the temperature at 4186 joules ber kilogram. By the way that is 19,726.0602718903+ times the blast that dropped the shields aboard the Enterprise D.

FOr those of you who do not know 1 wat=1joule=4.186 calories

 

...nor am I trying to have it both ways. I'm merely presenting the "visual effects, unrefuted dialogue, and personal observations" that corroborate my side of the argument.

For instance...

When you stated that photon torpedoes were incapable of generating megaton yields, I countered with the TNG episode entitled "Skin of Evil," in which a photon torpedo blast on a planet's surface is clearly visible from orbit, suggesting a 500 megaton yield, at least.

When you pointed out that the Enterprise shields were overcome by a mere 400 gigawatts in the TNG episode, The Survivors, I countered with visual and dialogue evidence from multiple Trek episodes--A Matter of Time, Fight or Flight, etc.--which state that the Enterprise's weapons are capable of generating power well within the terrawatt range. I also presented material from the TOS episode Doomsday Machine, in which the Enterprise shields are able to deflect blasts capable of slicing away planetary chunks.

I also demonstrated the Enterprise's ability to destroy entire planets using dialogue from the TOS episode Whom Gods Destroy.

Clearly, one could argue that you're also guilty of ignoring the "visual evidence, unrefuted dialogue, and personal observations" that "do not fit your model." Scott, you must understand that evidence isn't immediately invalidated simply because it conflicts with your position.

In fact, I've long championed the idea of waging this debate using only material from the shows and movies. I was only pointing out the pratfalls of using such a staunchly quantitative arguments as yours, which is based solely on numbers; after all, the numbers used in Star Trek are completely arbitrary and often conflicting, while meaningful number usage in Star Wars is virtually nonexistent. My argument is rooted more on the stated and observed effects of the weapon.

I've not once treated this debate as a "pissing contest." I've always regarded it as an exchange of ideas. Notice that I've never labeled your opinion "wrong," questioned anyone's intelligence, or employed rhetorical jabs such as "stupid" and "jerk." If you perceive our convesation to be a "pissing contest," perhaps it is because of your approach to it, not mine.

 

With no understanding of science.

The Tests of the first nuclear weapons was visible from Mexico City well over a thousand miles away and that was only 20 kilotons. The Challeger explosion was visible form sapce and that was't even 10 kilotons. It doe not equire that much energy to be visible form space. But think on this any time a photn torpedo hits a ship it looks no more impressive than an conventional explosive, it isn't even as bright as a tactical nuclear weapon.

You refuted nothing. Yes the dialog states that the weapons are capable of generating terawatts of power, but in what ammount of time? My Berretta can generate Terrawatts of power given enough time. As for slivcing off planetary pieaces, it is easier than you think. The fact of the matter is that were were given one rulling on the shields power level, nothing has disputed that whatsoever.

Some people claimed it could destroy all life on a planets, but we never saw it done. I could calime that Bunnies can rules the world, but untill they do, I'm just blowing out hot air. See the difference there.

You've provided NO EVIDENCE only hearsay and conjecture.

What observed facts? Their inability to function against their own weak shields. Besides the whole argument is stay with Canon. In Star trek the movie and shows are canon in Star Wars the whole EU (where it does not directly conflict with the movies) is canon as well. That we extrapolate number using real scientific models based on what we see is a valid tactic.

Of course you haven't labelled my positin as wrong, becuase I am right. When it comes to a war, Star Wars would walk all over Star Trek. It's not saying Star Trek is bad , it's just facts. Star Wars walks all over Star trek in a War same way Star Trek could own Babylon 5 and Babylon 5 would walk all over Starship Trooper....the list goes on.

 

A phenomenon is only scientific if it is repeatable under controlled settings. This debate addresses completely fictitious constructs with no tangible reality; as such, they cannot really be tested in any meaningful, scientific way. Furthermore, any reality that we may extract from these constructs is subject entirely to our own assumptions and biases, and is not scientifically valid.

We can only come to completely arbitrary conclusion about a fictitious universe and apply formulas and equations to those conclusions. Unquestionably, it’s an entertaining endeavor—considering the many possibilities and ramifications of a yet unachieved technology. However, it is not science.

As I explained earlier, when we consider the size of the blast versus the size of the planet, we calculate a yield of approximately 500 megatons. Consider this: The torpedo strikes the planet and erupts in a visible fireball. As earlier scenes have already established, the planet can support unprotected Human life and has gravity equal to 1G; therefore, its size is most likely comparable to that of Earth’s. So, using the planet’s diameter as a basis, we can calculate size of the fireball at approximately 300 kilometers with a radius of 150 kilometers.
Because the fireball appeared instantly, it’s likely indicative of thermal effects, so we would use the following formula:
r_thermal = Y0.41
150 = Y0.41
1502.44 = Y
Y = 203,020.39
Y is in multiples of 2.5 kilotons:
Yield = 203020.39 x 2,500
= 507,550,973.27 tons
= 507.55 Megatons

I’ve provided exactly the same kind of evidence that you have. In fact, I’ve even worked a calculation. See above.

A watt is one joule per second, and the Enterprise’s phasers can literally produce terajoules of power per second.

Oh, and now that you’ve brought up the topic of providing evidence, I’m somewhat curious: Just how easily can one slice off planetary pieces and obliterate entire planets in a relatively brief amount of time?

Actually, I’ve provided numerous pieces of visual and dialogue evidence refuting it—the terawattages produced by the phaser banks, the megatons generated by torpedo blasts, and the awesome power of the Planet Killer.

The only issue here is whether or not you choose to accept the evidence.

Oh, the delicious irony!

Do you realize that this entire Trek versus Wars debate is virtually no different than questioning whether or not bunnies can take over the world? In fact, the latter question might be more pertinent given that bunnies actually exist.

Actually, I’ve got it! I’ll draw a picture of bunnies taking over the world, scan it, and then email it to you. That way, you could “see” it being done, and we could incorporate it into our debate here.

Dude, you crack me up.

And there’s no “difference” because it’s all hot air, whether they simply talk about destroying a planet or they bother to incorporate planetary destruction into the special effects. After all, why would Scotty lie? He was only talking to McCoy so he obviously wasn’t bluffing.

No. It’s their ability to deflect 500 megaton torpedo yields as well as energy beams capable of fragmenting entire worlds.

Well, we can safely say that you aren’t “wrong.” Neither am I. Like I said, there is no right or wrong answer here.

No, those angry bunnies would eviscerate them all, ship by ship!

Scott, you really do make me laugh. You’re the only reason I continue visiting here.

 

Here's a question:

Do interdictors actually make a gravity field, or only the image of one in scanners?

 

HOTSPUR

I looked at that scene again: She says a hundred years of peace. Noone in the group disagreed with her. The dates are up in arms...my info tells me the war was 3 years...

Agreed. But.

I 've been attempting to reeconcil the term "megaton" with the use of beam weapons. I'm really having a hard time believing that a Laser style wepon, be it Star Wars or Star Trek could deliever any sort of "blast" that would equate to the release of energy on the mega ton scale.

It's completely un precedented in history. And frankly I'm wondering if apply it to this sort of weponry isn't a agreat falsehood.

The only beam weapon thought to produce this sort of destructive potential is theorectical and would seem to be beyond even the limits of Trek and Star War's...The Graser. A Gamma Ray Applified by stimulated emission of radiation.

Generals in the military long played for this type of weapon. Apparently it would deliver the destructive blast of an atomic bomb without the nuclear fallout. In other words an army killer. Problem is...Theres no way to reflect Gamma rays into a coherent beam ( too high energy) and the use of gamma rays in the atmosphere is impossible at a considerable range

I have a hard time believing that. Simply because it's you. ( You haven't proven yourself to be trustworthy of word.)

Can't be used. I'ts not cannon. Physics have been proven not to apply and you have no cannon variables. As long as there are two or more variables left unknown the problem is unsovlable from a physics or algebraic expression.

Crap! as long as you have one missing in this case...the Mass of the asteroid. You're making up it completely, round trip. Not only does cannon blow your out of the watter....algebra does too.

It's okay if you don't know. Trek Fans know that the shape of the Saucer is key for high speeds. That's why the Federation design has always included the saucer.

Speed and defense has Always been critical to the Federation. The Warp field behaves much like a magnetik field. In fact they are much alike to the point it is preferable that they don't interact. We've seen the bow shock that the Enterprise and Voyager present. Ideally A ship can generate enough power with SIF fields to maintain the ships stability but nothing can stop the subspace turbulence from building up "around nacelles" (B' Elanna Torres) Threshold. Once the Forward bubble has been breach it will allow the outside Space Time to flow through which has a completely different Quintessense rate that the universe the ship has created. Seven of Nine called this "spatial distortion" And said that the Borg have a way of defeating those emmense stresses.

So you're Wrong...not to mention this has nothing to do with impulse engines Klingon and Federation tech with Impulse seems level.

 

Have you not understood a single word everyone else has ever communicated to you. This is a suspension of disbelief. For the purposes of this argument we treat what we see on screen as if it were real and possible. We do not say "Oh that was just some great special effects." we say. "Wow, that light turbolaser bolt just vaporized a 40 meter wide asteroid and was stilll moving." Now we both now this isn't real but for the sake of the argument here it is treated as such.

You did now that denser planets have a higher gravity to size ratio, right? Actually, your math is way off, the bright flash may have been 300km but that is hardly the size of the fireball. Like I explained above a bright flash visible from space of that size is easily obtained forma 20 kiloton explosion. Ask any physicist.

Based on a flawed assumption.

No, a joule is on watt second, get it right. Second Paramount has equated the Type XII phasers mounted on the Enterprise E with 10.4 gigawatts. True they mounts several of them (between 10 and 18 ) but still. However you will noter that phasers can fire for several minutes on a continous beam before being shut down. This may be how they get their terawatts.

Hours is not all that brief.

I don't accept your false presumptions. Paramount and visual canon does not support character banter. Remeber characters can exaggerate. So we go by visual.

Really? Scotty has never bluffed a teammate, has never axaggerated or lied? Did we ever see the Enterprise destroy a plent? No. Did we ever see them even raze one to the ground? No. Did we ever see them even come close to it? No. In fact it wasn't until Star Trek TMP that earth was threatened with a weapon of of the magnitude that is even upto a a SW style BDZ. V'ger had sent out dozens plasma torpedoes each one hundreds of times more powerful that the one that nearly obliterated the newly refitted Enterprise A and even that was only enough to threaten surface life. Later canon trumps older canon

The torpedoes have never shown 500 megaton yeilds, it is your faulty assumption abotu the size of the blast radiance that has them that big. In FInal Frontier one landed not 50 yards from Kirk and Spock and McCoy. And they were just fine.

Yes there is a right and wrong. That is why there is this discussion.

 

And this isn't the only thing that the Enterprise show gets wrong. Which leads me to believe it is an alternate universe.

Well, if it helps the megaton equivalent is to give you an image in your mind. The heat energy needed to vaporize the asteroids in ESB is in the hundreds of kilotons to multi megatons range, and that is just bare minimums. So it is easy to believe.

Of course it's a falsehood, it's called fiction, but becuase for this argument we suspend our disbelief it is considered real. It pretend of course, but doesn't mean we can't analyze the fantasy.

Actually any beam weapon with the wattage behind it and designed properly to handle the stress could do it.

So? Your disbelief does not change reality. Go disbelieve a wall if you need that one proven to you.

Any reliable physics to mathematical supposition used to accurately explain a canon scene is valid. We have seen nothing in this seen to suggest physics has been violted, same with chemistry. Second the mass of the asteroid was taken by muliplying volume by known densities. Nothing we have see suggest my figure to be off and finally Physics, Calculas, Algebra, chemistry and canon support my figures. I cannot help that you con't understand the equations.

No, you know this and it is a sad delusion of yours. The Defiant is much faster than any other ship in the Federation. So obviously you are wrong>

I know warp theory and you have a unique view of it. The warp field around the vessel is a special field construct that allows the warp engines to take apart space/time ahead of the ship fall into the 'hole' and reassemble space/time behind them. this allows FTL travel without time distortion. However the drive does not take apart matter so the ship is constantly hiting debris at FTL. This is the reason for main deflectors, a low power tractor beam that moves any particles ranging from gnat to football size out of the way of the ship. Structural integrity fields then can handle the dust. Now note this is only needed for long range warp jumps. Short range ones it is not truly a neccesity, though still nice.

No, I am not wrong. You are running off of non canon material and are mistaken becuase of it, though you do show a keen grasp of the mistaken data.