Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Pollux V, May 9, 2002.
ST is pretty much screwed, yes.
Dune is a bit more interesting of a fight.
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prescience + no-field technology + Holtzmann field (shields/foldspace) make a pretty good combo
not to mention Paul, Leto II and Teg
No-Ships have hte problem of having no really good sensors, owing to:
1. The no-ship technology.
2. The fact that there is no computers.
Moreover, Star Wars has prescience in abundance (the Force), tremendously good shields, and various blocking things.
But yes, Dune probably kicks Star Wars' ass hand-to-hand besides Jedi. But in terms of space fight capacities (and even just good, reliable, non-prescient based ultra-fast FTL travel) Star Wars wins hands down.
It is very likely that Star Wars could destroy the Dune galaxy before they even got a chance to meaningfully respond.
They have virtually nothing in the way of anti-ship weapons. They use nuclear bombs on par with that found int he 20th century still.
And Paul, Leto II, and Teg are matched by folks such as Anakin and Luke Skywalker, Mace Windu, Yoda, Darth Sidious, et cetera, et cetera...
Exar Kun would have cut Leto II in half.
holy cow. there was actually 143 pages of this stuff! And i thought i was a fan, these people breath sci fi!!!
Star Wars pretty much owns the block compared to all the possibilities above. The most interesting fights would be Farscape or Star Gate.
Farscape becuase they have comparable numbers and resources, but fall behinf technically. Even the Nebari would find a Star Destroyer nigh invincible. It would be a long bloody fight however as PeaceKeepers, Scarrens, Hynerians, and Luxans are all warrior races when the chips are down and would fight hard enough to give puase to all but Wookies and Noghri.
Star Gate does have some fantastic tech, but it seems even the Asgardians have slow FTL. Not to mention a serious lack in their numbers. Their tech seems on par with Star Wars in that it is slightly ahead, but also has reliability issues. So the fight would be devastating but in the end SW would triumph, barely but they still would.
Real challenges for Star Wars would be the Berserkers, Mechanoids, and similiar enemies. Ones who don't know fear, hate with their entire being, and have thousands of years of perfecting their technology. Even then I doubt Berserkers or Mecahanoids would win, but it would be close.
ok Star Trek is the best, Star Wars to the Space Balls.
Star Trek was great when it was TOS and TNG and first two seasons of DS9 however it is just not Star Wars. Of course that is probably becuase in just the original Trilogy Star Wars walked all over the cliche of scifi movies. Star Wars made the Star Trek movies a possibility.
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Star Trek came before Star Wars...it is indeed Star Trek that paved the road to Star Wars.
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! is the greatest. *Hugging it*
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Star Trek (TOS) did reasonably well as a series, but didn't have the fan base to justify a movie. Star Trek may have been first, but Paramount would never had done the movies if it hadn't been for Star Wars. They would have never have gone to TNG or DS9 if it hadn't been for Empire Strikes Back or Return of the Jedi. However there was no fan base for the first Star Wars and it changed the image of scifi. It was no longer just for nerds and geeks, it was everyone.
You're making the mistake of immediately focusing on military power, and nothing else. When it comes to sheer physical power, SW has it. But Dune makes up for it in terms of the unorthodox.
With the Bene Gesserit, the Fish Speakers, the Sardaukar, the Fremen, the Emperor, the Landsraad, CHOAM, the GUILD, the Honored Matres, the Bene Tlielax and the Ixians (not to the mention the 'Ones of many faces', the Cymeks and the Machines) combined with the likes of geniuses like Teg, Leto, Paul, Idaho, Halleck, the Baron and Jessica (also Agamemon, Erasmus and Vorian) will be able to consistently outmaneouver, outspy and outrace Star Wars. Dune will lap up Star Wars technology, and break it down from inside at every level; riots will be instigated, assassinations will be dealt. Star Wars will have a hard time even figuring out the locations of Dune's planets.
For every genius of Dune, there is a genius of Star Wars:
Yoda, Darth Sidious, Exar Kun, Darth Revan, Darth Bane, Obi Wan Kenobi, The Jedi Exile, Markos Ragnos, Xim the Despot, Count Dooku, Grand Admiral Thrawn, Luke Skywalker, Lord Hoth, et cetera, et cetera...
Star Wars has tens of thousands of prescients, capable of sensing things across the galaxy.
They've had 100,000 years - not simply 20,000 as in Dune - to develop their technologies and mature.
They have litterally trillions of people.
Certainly, I will allow Dune to have some excellent spies, hand-to-hand combatants, and other practitioners.
Moreover, Dune can hardly be said to be able to lap up Star Wars' technology. Humans have no knowledge whatsoever of computers in Dune - the last human who consistantly worked with sophisticated machines would be a pre-Bulterian Jihadist.
I see maybe the Bene Gesserit surviving by getting cozy with some horny Sith.
The man responsable for observing the film and coming up with the stats for the Ep. II Tech Manual (assuming you guys are talking about the Incredible Cross-sections) is Dr. Curtis J. Saxton, who first started to calculate the firepower on SW ships on his own website (Star Wars: Technical Commentaries (not allowed to post links for some strange reason, so just search for it :bugeye: )) back in 1995, years before Bryan Young, the original creator of stardestroyer.net content, started his website (in 1998 I believe, not sure), and again, long before Michael Wong took over Bryan Youngs research.
The fact that Wong has had contact with Saxton before, during, and after the production of that book is irrelevant, as Saxton is more than capable of figuring out powervalues for the TL's in Ep. II.
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Now for defence of Star Trek:
I'll twist what TW Scott asked earlier to a poster and ask: What star destroyer?
Victory-class? Imperator-class? Executor-class?
To state that the Enterprise, any one of them, is 1/100th the size of an SD is exaggerated. The smallest (to my knowledge mind you) Enterprise thru time would be more like 1/50 of an Imperator-class star destroyer (ISD).
Frigate HMS Enterprise (1705): 33 meters (1/49th of an ISD)
Space Shuttle Orbiter (1976): 37.24m (1/43rd of an ISD)
1st Warp 5 starship, NX-01 Enterprise (2151): 214m (between 1/8th and 1/7th of an ISD)
CV-6 WWII Aircraft Carrier (1936): 246.8m (between 1/6th and 1/7th of an ISD)
Constitution-class (2245): 301,55 (between 1/5th and 1/6th of an ISD)
1st Nuclear Aircraft Carrier, CVN-65 Supercarrier(1960): 335.64m (alittle longer than 1/5th of an ISD)
Excelsior-Class (2290): 455.8m (between 1/3rd and 1/4th of an ISD)
Galaxy-Class (2363): 641m (2.5 times shorter than the lenght an ISD)
Sovereign-Class (2372): 685 (2.35 times shorter than the length of an ISD)
Imperator-Class star destroyer: 1,600m (length of an ISD)
So to say that a star destroyer, which most people will immediately link to the Imperator-class seen in the movies, dwarfs, or is 100 times larger than the Enterprise, is far from the truth.
Now, compared to an Executor-class super star destroyer with it's massive 17,600 meters you can say it dwarfs the Enterprise. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
But it still isn't anywhere near 100 times the size of any of the spacefaring Enterprises seen in Star Trek length-wise.
If you're talking mass though, we're on a whole nother ballcourt.
You are judging only length - not mass or volume.
Consider the fact that the bulk of the Enterprise is a narrow disk...
But yes. As you mentioned briefly in the last part, it is mass and volume that are vitally important to consider.
The entire Jedi council could not forsee the fall of the Republic. While Jedi do have mild prescience, it is incredibly weak compared to that of a Dune prescient.
The number of years taken to develop is immaterial. The final factor is the technology developed and maturity gained.
Dune is spread over several galaxies.
1) Technology can be absorbed without the need for intelligent machines. Look at the Star Wars hyperdrive, or it's shield technology. Very little technology in Star Wars requires AI.
2) Since the war takes place over an entire timeline, you have to include the Dune Machines. They have no compulsion to follow the Butlerian Jihad.
3) Ixians constructed automated navigation systems. The Butlerian Jihad itself is weakening.
Also, how would Star Wars even FIND Dune's planets? It's VERY decentralized after the Scattering.
So, even Paul was unable to see past a single decisin he would make in the future. Star Wars prescience is incredibly accurate when it comes to certain things. It's just that somethime the Jedi involved do not understand. As for the council unable to see the future, remember that they had a 900 year imbalance between the Living and Order forces that was crippling some of their more esoteric powers.
And Dune is barely out of the industrial age. Their weapons are not any more advanced than todays in capability.
Frank Herbert never said that, never even implied it.
Now i know you are stoned, the Hyperdrive requires a Nav computer or an Astromech to even use. Shields have dedicated AI's that allow the weaponry of the protected ship through and not the enemy fire.
Actually, since they have not progressed much since Butlerian Jihad I am guessing that even adding the machines would not help. Your still stuck with a universe where a 20 kiloton nuke is the end all be all of weaponry. Versus a universe where people can carry 4 kiloton grenades.
So? I take it Frank's kid has no respect for his father's work.
Heard of these nifty things called radio telescopes, deep space probe droids, scout ships?
Thank you for dropping the name. However.
Irrelevant is not the name I would choose to catalogue this bit of information.
What we do know is that Wong got to Saxton before the visual effects were completed on the film of Ep. II were completed
In other words his book is extremely premature of the visual effects. As a result Wong's anti- Trek/ anti- Star Gate attitude might have revealed itself.
I'd be remiss to ignore this wedge of evidence as you seem so inclined to do.
Tech wise Trek is superior to Star Wars. That much is obvious. Ion vs Impulse. Zero point weapons vs. Nuclear war heads. Transporters vs. shuttles , walking hologram projectors vs. holodecks and moblie emitters.
One of the things Star Wars fans fail to understand is that this genre is standing still. It's technology hasn't progressed in any considerable capacity in a 100,000 years.
Trek is moving forward. The era of the 23rd century would have crumbled before a Star Wars onslaught as well as the early 24 centruy
But Trek has moved on. These same old weapons from Star Wars are now up against technology designed to bypass shields. The enemies in Trek are also considerably powerful. And while ther Federation doesn't hold a candle to the Borg or Dominion it's adaptablity kept this small cluster of space safe.
Leto was able to predict at a range of 3000 years. Paul blinded himself by rejecting the sacrifice that he would have to take in order to bring about the universe he wanted. Name me an incident of incredibly accurate SW prescience? Leto knew the location and schedule of every single militant group within an entire city; he was able to dispatch easily. Dune's prescients are prescient at god-like levels; forever aware of the fabric of time around them.
Holtzmann fields and it's various uses, lasguns, spacecraft, no-fields, nullentropy fields, stone burners, axlotl tanks, face dancers, artificial melange (which itself is an INCREDIBLY potent substance). Not to mention the Bene Gesserit's incredible maturity and understanding of humanity and politics.
I vaguely remember Leto's empire being spread over 3 galaxies. Correct me if I'm wrong. The Scattering itself spread humanity so thin that it would be easier finding a grain of sand in the Atlantic Ocean than locating any individual ship.
Dedicated AIs??? the basic principle of a shield is simple enough for tribals to use (gunguns). Guild pilots can calculate at astromech levels easily.
The 'end of all weaponry' is Dune is full-out orbital bombardment that obliterates it's population.
Frank Herbert himself wrote Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse: Dune. He is the one who decided that the Butlerian Jihad cannot last forever. Please read Dune before making assumptions like this.
Heard of something called the lightspeed barrier and the incredibly large volume of space?
Consider it analogous to the effect that the Spacing Guild had on Paul. Sidious was actively blocking Jedi vision, through the circuition his plans were taking. He was cloaking the future through his schemes, which were schemes within schemes within schemes wedded all ready to his powerful Dark Side energies.
In essence, it was the equivalent of facing Baron Harkonnen as a Mentat Prescient.
STar Wars has the technology to supernova non-nova stars.
A single Star Destroyer can turn the entire crust of a planet (not just the surface) molten in 3 hours.
Hyperdrive is 20,000,000 times faster than the speed of light. And any smuck with about ten thousand credits can buy a ship that can hop across the galaxy.
An illiterate slave boy can home-build a sentient AI out of scrap parts that can speak 3 billion languages.
Dune has a few bioweapons (and those are only in the Brian Herbert things) and nukes on par with modern nuclear weapons + one special type of nuke called a "stone burner".
I've actually done a calculation of Dune based off Leto II's room in God Emperor of Dune. Check out my results:
1100 on each side = 4400 perimeter
20 inches wide - 10 inches long
0.5 m wide - 0.25 m long
2200 women in one row wide
4400 women in one line long
Area = Length x Width
3,226,667 worlds in the God-Emperor's Empire
Star Wars may only have one galaxy, but practically every planet in that galaxy is used. This is hundreds of millions - if not more - planets. Those in the stories are basically on the major, well known, ones.
Actually, Star Wars required 20,000 years from the advent of hyperspace travel, and 95,000 years from making Coruscant into a city, in order to have the computers that were powerful and portable enough to fit into the ships to calculate hyperspace jumps without blasting themselves into bits. Moreover, all ships in Star Wras have droid brains. The millennium falcon was held to have three.
It also is not simply a matter of AI, but just simply of raw computing power. Dune has mentats. Mentats are super computers in human flesh, but their level of power is vastly beneath even the simplest computers in Dune. The Ixans would wet their pants facing this sort of technology.
True, but they themselves showed no thing in the prequel books which was comparable to SW. C-3PO - again, made by an illiterate slave boy - could probably run circles around Omnius' programming.
Even in the newest book, the machines do not seem to have progressed mcuh.
Yes, but theoretically a human being on par with Einstein could figure out the equations necessary for space-folding. A computer doing the calculations could probably input the data necessary with relative ease. That is, -relative- easy. Of course, it required some 10,000 years to make the original computer systems, and it took quite a while for the Ixians to do their systems.
Easy: Jump from galaxy to galaxy and unleash about 100,000 probes. Find the planets, then start shooting them with Galaxy Guns.
Of if preferred, do the Galaxy Guns at first. Make more with World Devestators.
What what what?
The Millennium Falcoln was going either a significant fraction of C, or more than C, when running away from the Star Destroyer after Hoth in ESB.
The yield of Star Wars weapons are significantly higher. This is shown in ESB with the asteroid vapourization as well as many other places.
Where is one instance where Zero Point Weapons demonstrate any power whatsoever in Star Trek?
This is the eqiuvalent of saying Star Wars doesn't have as good makeup as Star Trek. Hologram technology in Star Trek may be more impressive, but that is because they don't have the ubiquitous droids.
Actually, it has. But the fact remains that much of what SW does, it onlyl does during war, as there is no reason to have half this shit when there isn't a need. It is too expensive. Too much time and effort.
Bypass -Trek- shields. The shields in Star Wars can shield things from several orders of magnitude more than what an entire Star Trek fleet can produce over an hour.
The Borg would be overcome by the Empire without a second thoght. Hell, just put them against the Sith Empire.
Thousands of years earlier, Anakin's birth was prophesized.
Illiterate slave boys...
Technology in Star Wars is like indoor plumbing for us.
First of all Impulse Engine are Ion engines, thus the Ion trail. While they propel their small light ships quickly they don't have the output of an Ion engine. The engines aboard the Defiant, arguable some of the most powerful int he Star Trek universe need to be functioning at 100% to launch the Defiant ffrom the ground of a class M planet, and even then you have to stand the thing on end. Meanwhile the engines on a Imperail II Class Star Destroyer regularly can lift off from M-class worlds with upto 2 G without strain.
Zero point weapons are a nifty concept but fail to produce effect that are more impressive thant Tomahawk cruise missle loaded with convential explosives. Meanwhile that little hand grenade Leia threatened Jabba with was a 4 kiloton nuclear device.
Transporters are about the most useless piece of equipment ever made. The list of things that foul up a transporter is so long that it makes War and Peace look like a short story. Shuttles can opperate in all these circumstances and have the nice feature that if you wind up stranded due to some failure more than likely you have some shelter and some extra gear.
Holodecks are nice, but compared to Holonet it looks like a sick joke. Holonet can broadcast instantaneously form one side of the glaxy to the other. It's like a galaxy wide internet with no delay. In comparison Supspace radia can have hours of delay in the same quadrant.
You have heard of diminishing returns. Things have improved but at a slower rate. Still they started off well beyond Star Trek and their advancement along the line of technology still puts them learning faster.
Even the 27th century would have been crushed, hell take it out to the 40th or 5oth and they will still be crushed
First of all those weapons bypass trek shields the best the Federation fields is still less that 600 gigawatts.
The Dominion or the Borg wouldn't even be a challenge for the Hutts and the Hutts know to kiss the asses of the Empire and the New Republic.
A galaxy is a VERY large place, and I sincerely doubt that the majority of planets are used in the SW galaxy. Han Solo is scared of getting lost is space without a navcomp database. He memorises starmaps for this reason. If he could just jump to 2 or 3 random planets and find civilization, he wouldn't be scared.
However, even if SW uses only 1% of all it's stars, it is still phenomenally large. Much larger than Dune's colonization of the galaxy. Yet, the galaxy is still an incredibly enormous place, 100,000 probes won't cut it.
If an illiterate boy can build an AI, then all Dune needs is one Face Dancer to read his brainwaves, and Dune then has AI technology.
Any Star Wars prescients could easily be shielded from viewing the Duneverse. Leto II can easily produce a blind spot of Palpatine's level.
Dune's greatest asset is it's incredible control of information. Artificial religions, prescience, no-fields, face-dancers are all different methods of extracting and withholding information from your enemies. Surveillance and deception. Star Wars is woefully lacking in comparison according to me, even though it clearly has military superiority. Even processing information (military genius) is much rarer in SW than Dune.
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