Star Wars vs Star Trek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Pollux V, May 9, 2002.


Which universe would win?

  1. Star Trek

    227 vote(s)
  2. Star Wars

    268 vote(s)
  3. Spaceballs

    47 vote(s)
  4. Farscape

    12 vote(s)
  5. Dune

    50 vote(s)
  6. Stargate

    36 vote(s)
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  1. LoRaan Registered Senior Member

    Wow, cannot believe someone can say that Star Trek has a message, but Star Wars doesn't.

    First Trilogy: It is both a story of the overthrow of a tyrannical government and a story of final redemption

    Prequels: A story of how a single man manipulated events to topple a democracy and replace it with a Dicatorship, the destruction of an entire faith, and the corruption of a hero through his fears.
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  3. LoRaan Registered Senior Member

    If that was actually true then Q never would have been made human because of his mistakes as he would have erased them. See the problem here? We never have evidence that Q can actually change the past. Hell, we have not evidence Q can time travel. In fact all we are absolutely sure Q can do is rearrange matter and communicate telepathically.
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  5. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

    Lo, the thing is, any kind of electronic field is going to have a frequency of some form; it's kind of a physical part of energy itself. Now, I've heard rumors the shields in Star Wars (at least the particle shields) work by ionizing and collecting vast swathes of microscopic matter and condensing them to form a physical barrier, held in place between two opposing barrier fields... I don't know if this is true or not though. if it IS true, though, it would work... poorly... against something like a Phaser that works by literally tearing apart the atomic bonds of matter. The effect would be akin to shooting a Holtzman shield in Dune with a laser... KABOOM!
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  7. LoRaan Registered Senior Member

    Okay, first of all Energy itself has no need of frequency. Energy just is. How you transmit it might very well have frequency but only if you impart it with such. Direct current has no frequency as it is either flowing or not. Alternating Current has a frequency as there are brief periods, (too short for a human to notice) that it is nonexistent. (AC was created in order to make transmission over semiconductive wiring more efficient).

    Particle Shields in Stare Wars don't actually work the way you are describing. In many ways they are like the AG fields of Andromeda, they are shields that interact only with matter of the atomic size or larger. At least that is the way they are deployed and used. However to even get to the Particle shields you must first penetrate the Ray Shielding which would stop a nadion into it's tracks. Given the numbers supplied in canon Star Trek and Star Wars the ENTIRE Warpdrive output of the Enterprise D would not account for 1/60th the power of a SINGLE Heavy Turbolaser shot.

    War isn't about who is the good guy and who is the bad guy. It's numbers. Star Wars has more everything, from troops to vessels, to vehicles, to years experience in war. Not only that but their technology is vastly superior to anything short of the Q itself. Not to mention, they would have had over 6 billion years to improve before First Contact.
  8. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

    You read very deeply into I beg you to stop and look at the numbers yourself instead of accepting what they have put out there. If a single Turbolaser shot were as powerful as you say, then a Star Destroyer would be fully capable of shattering a planet on its own in a few shots... remember, the NCC-1701 (the ORIGINAL) Enterprise was, in one episode, unable to break through a planetary shield to save Kirk only because doing so would vaporize the atmosphere of the planet, killing everyone on the surface. The USS Defiant, a small ship by standards, is capable of eradicating all life from the surface of a small planet in around ten minutes, given the timeframe that Gul Dukat would have had to do so.

    The calculations on for the output of the Enterprise' warp engine doesn't make sense either, especially when you read the quote from Data, which stated "12.75 Gigawatts per..." and is never completed. also claims the Death Star Superlaser unleashes over 1x10^38th joules of energy... an absolutely absurd amount as such a discharge wouldn't leave an asteroid field left in the wake of a planets destruction.

    They also try to say the reactor on the Ent-D is a terrawatt reactor at max because of a quote in which it was said it "kicks plasma up into the terrawatt range"... considering energetic plasma is used for everything from powering the Warp Field Coils to power distribution on the ship, I think it's safe to say kicking energetic plasma into the terrawatt range =/= a 1 terrawatt max output.

    In all honesty, for every argument put forth by, I would recommend reading

    This guy was banned from for showing how wrong many of Wong's calculations were despite being told to stop doing so. Unlike, he posts his math compared to screenshots taken from the shows/movies and explains why he came to the conclusions he did. I would recommend to read through and see what you think.
  9. LoRaan Registered Senior Member

    First of all you are not understanding simple physics. The TK event was a Terraton impact at it's effect on our planet was negligible aside from killing off dinosaurs. That would take 800 shots of a Heavy Turbolaser to duplicate. So shattering a planet is far outside the capabilities of a single ISD. However, it could very easily destroy all life on a planet in short order, especially adding it the fighter compliment.

    As for the episodes with piercing the shield, they did indeed have to power to do so, but since all life on that mud ball was in that shield they exterminating the life there was pitifully easy to do if you didn't calibrate weapons fire perfectly.

    And the Defiant actually has the same power and firepower as a galaxy class heavy cruiser.

    The quote is a great part showing how stupid the writers can be n Star Trek, a watt is defined as one joule applied for one second. Thus a generators specifications would be listed in watts and not have a per (any time unit). Of course Data is programmed to speak so there is no misunderstanding and would add "per second" so that it could not be confused with possible life time output of the reactor.

    Actually that is the minimum energy needed to break a planet apart based on 1g of gravity and the mass of a Earth type planet. It is very easy to calculate provided you actually understand physics.

    I don't say it is a terawatt reactor, in fact I would stick Star Trek with the cannon figure of 12.75 gigawatts if I wasn't nice enough to assume it had to be terawatt range, but we could say it is gigawatt like data says.

    He was kicked off because he was a disruptive influence who claimed his calculations were correct even when they were not and continuously made slurs against the people who proved him wrong.

    You do know that every physicist out there laughs at this guy, right? His math is woefully off even in the best case. I have performed all the calculation even using his factors and he is amazingly off in every case. Then man doesn't even realize that a 35mm camera can have a different apparent focal length based off lenses used.

    Oh and his idea that the Superlaser has to be a chain reaction is ludicrous at the base of it. It goes against all visual evidence as well as canon and physics. The only thing that site is good for is a laugh.
  10. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

    I'm going to assume you meant the K-T Extinction event, which is theorized to be approximately 100 Million Megatons, or 100 Teratons. I would not say that a blunt-force impact that had the explosive power to instantly wipe out all life within thousands of miles would be considered "negligible", but I see your point.

    If my memory serves, the shield was a planetary shield... so, by definition, yes, all life on the planet was under the shield (it was also, if I recall, an M-Class earth-like planet... hardly a "mud ball")

    This... just, no... The Defiant is a purpose-built heavy escort warship... the Galaxy class doesn't have NEARLY as much firepower as the Defiant in terms of raw damage potential. What the Galaxy class should (or would have if upgraded to modern spec) is Staying Power and MUCH better research facilities, not to mention medical and crew compliment. However, the Quantum Torpedoes and Pulse Phasers give the Defiant a MUCH higher overall damage capability than something like a basic Galaxy class explorer.

    Which, again, doesn't make sense. When I heard that in the episode, my initial reaction was something along the lines of "dafuq?"

    Ah, but we aren't talking the energy to break a planet apart... we are talking the energy needed to vaporize a planet (According to Wong). Yet the planet was obviously not vaporized, else there wouldn't have been an asteroid field left.

    So then how do you account for actions that require much more than 12.75 Gigawatts? Even as a silly example, in TNG "Survivors", they were struck with, as Worf puts it, "400 Gigawatts of particle energy". Now, if we take it to mean that 400 GW is enough to down the shields, that would mean that the Ent-D is only able to withstand mid level modern weapons, and a modern nuclear warhead would be capable of downing the shields... an amusing thought as in TOS the old Connie Enterprise was only slightly worried that a 20th century interceptor with nuclear munitions would be able to cause damage to the ship when they had no shields whatsoever, and that's while in the atmosphere of the planet (which would, if I'm not mistaken, make the impact more potent)

    And yet, when I read through the posts he was involved in, I see a lot of strawman and ad hom attacks against him, right from the get go. Yes, in the end he became bitter and unruly... but you know, I don't blame him given the kind of reception those rabid warsies gave him.

    I would greatly like to see your math of his calculations - if he is wrong, and you can prove it on paper, then I shall simply dismiss his site entirely. However, I have no way to believe Wong's numbers as they stand because there is so much on-screen evidence that simply renders it moot... yes things like that may be supported in the EU, but what we see on screen has to remain the God tier against anything else.

    How does it go against visual evidence, or physics? The beam impacts the planet, then a few frames later it literally detonates from the outside in as though the core itself exploded. It wasn't vaporized, it didn't shatter as though struck, it literally took the hit, then a moment later went "pop".
  11. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

    Okay, so, give me a "stable claim" from on the output of, say, a single Heavy TurboLaser blast. Now, reconcile that number with a calculated impact power of the Asteroid that wiped out the bridge of the ISD in The Empire Strikes Back.

    My question is thus: If a Star Destroyers shields can withstand impacts of HTL and TL fire for more than one or two shots, why would something as low-key as an asteroid lazily floating into it be enough to down the shields? And even with the shields down, why would it be able to take out the bridge of an unshielded ship? My challenge to you is thus:

    If your understanding of physics is as good as you claim, calculate for me the impact power of that asteroid. Base the size of the asteroid on the known size of the ISD and its parts.
    Now, assuming all the asteroids in that field were of size with a +/- 200% variance, distributed such that an ISD may take two or three hits a minute (safe to assume if they were using their weapons to vaporize the larger ones as is oft claimed), tell me the average incoming energy from asteroid impacts over the span of a minute.
  12. LoRaan Registered Senior Member

    Okay first of all, the impact of the asteroid would depend on the density of the materials for Durasteel, Dura Armor and such. Then we would have to know the seed of the craft in the Asteroid belt, which is well in excess of 2km a second. Also factor in that the incoming Asteroid had it's own speed of at least 2km a second.

    Let's assume the Asteroid that impacted was 40 meter diameter sphere of Iron as a conservative estimate with a speed of 4000 meters per second.

    Mass: 263,391,128.07696825036 kilograms
    Speed: 4000 meters per second
    Kinetic Energy: 2,107,129,024,615,746 joules or roughly 5,267.8 times the energy that tore the Enterprise D shields a new one

    I would point out that the Ship in question was the very same ship seen chasing the Millennium Falcon out of the Asteroid Field later that very movie. That means the bridge tower survived. it was likely damaged and thus why Han Solo could hide so effectively.

    Also the ships were in the Asteroid Field for days prior to the impact we saw and since there was no shield interaction the shields had to have been hammered down

    Conversely let us take the ramming of the Scimitar by the Enterprise E. The ship took roughly three second to travel twice it's length, but I will speed it up to 700 meters a second for you

    Enterprise Weight: 3,255,000,000 kg
    Speed: 700 meters per second
    Kinetic Energy: 796,250,000,000,000 joules or 37.78% of the Asteroid impact seen is ESB. I would point out that this ram attack hit the Scimitar while the Reman ship's shields were at 70% and did far more structural damage than we witness the ISD in ESB to have suffered.
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2013
  13. LoRaan Registered Senior Member

    It is called both the KT and TK depending on which professors you talk too. It goes form Terraton to 100,000 Terratons again depending again on researcher. But you can see a piddling 12.5 gigatons is nothing to a on it is a different matter

    It was an area shield just like the other instances this happened. In every instance all sentient life was centered in that area.

    The Defiant was designed as containing the firepower and power of a Galaxy Class in a compact frame. That is EXACTLY how it is described. I will also mention that galaxy class Heavy Cruisers could fire Quantum Torpedoes too.

    Actually just realized my error and will correct it 12.75 million gigawatts...which is 12.75 terrawatts. Which if we convert it to a warhead equivalent is 3.035 megatons per second.

    No Wong clearly states he provides only the energy needed to negate Gravitational Binding Energy, he doesn't provide the energy needed to vaporize anything or even break any rocks, he provides just the energy to overcome gravity.

    If you remember the 400 Gigawatts severely screwed their shields and damaged the ship. However see my admission above that I forgot one word, but still it does not let the Enterprise D even remotely near a Heavy Turbolaser.

    Oh, the Constitution class ship still had it's structural integrity field would could easily handle the sub 5 kiloton nuclear warhead you place in a missile carried by a fighter of that era.

    I read through his shit, he never once gave a correct number, never responded properly to a disproof and was insulting from the get go. Remember that this person had been debating Wong and others for years and was openly insulting to both on other sites and began bring the same crap there.

    He has been proven wrong, but then again you dismiss the guy who did it because you disagree with how he handles idiots.

    There is nothing onscreen that contradicts the EU. You can try to make the claim that ships firing on each other aren't showing the level of firepower stated in AU, but that is like complaining that a .45ACP is weak because it would not penetrate the Second Chance Standard vest that was designed to stop the round in the first place. We have never seen anything that contradicts the claims of EU canon in any of the films. You never will either as EU canon is based off observation of the films.

    Of course this is completely unlike Star Trek which contradicts itself in the very same episode.

    Yes it did, whish is exactly what you would expect from a beam striking the surface drilling down and super heating a core. A chain reaction like that guy describes would see the planet dissolving instead of popping. Think for a moment
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2013
  14. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

    I think I was thinking of a TOS episode where they were trying to punch through a planetary shield to save Kirk and Spock... I can't recall the episode and am not having any luck with Google atm, so I coul be wrong.

    I'm curious where you are getting these from? The only ships we have seen use Quantum torpedoes are the Defiant, Sovereign, and IIRC, Prometheus classes. Granted, given that Quantum Torpedoes are the same basic size and dimension as a Photon, it would stand to reason they are compatible on all ships. Where do you get the information that describes the Defiant as having as much power as a Galaxy? The thing that made the Defiant so dangerous was the simple fact that it had even more power in terms of warp core output, but would literally shake itself apart at higher outputs (such as high warp travel)

    Which is still a odd quote coming from a being such as Data, who we know would neither exaggerate nor make such an elementary mistake.

    Could I have the line please? It's been some time since I've gone to (and last time I was there my antivirus went haywire, so I don't intend to make a return trip anytime soon)

    They were firing 400 GW of "particle energy"; the response Worf gave was that he was having trouble reassembling the shields, and then that there was thermal damage to the hull. None the less, I wish we had more information on what exactly they were firing (they made a quip about jacketed streams of positrons and anti-protons). The exact qu

  15. NeedleOfInquiry Registered Member

    Your computer is allergic to bullshit.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Then how is it that a single phaser beam can destroy an atmosphere, but a thousand turbolaser shots can't do the same?
  16. alpinedigital Registered Senior Member

    First, maybe u missed this post, or ignored it, or didn't understand it?

    Let me try again. (Sorry if my terminology is slightly off, but I'm trying to explain in my own words rather than exactly how it's presented at wikipedia)
    First, u say energy just is, it doesn't have a 'frequency'.
    Well, 1st off, energy frequency has to do with how it's measured; It's a calculation of units of work (frequency of action) over time. StarDestroyer site attempts to dictate to you that 'frequency' is like an on/off switch, or like A/C current (which is not actually on/off, but is more like the difference between a regular saw that goes back and forth, to a band saw that is continuous direction.)

    StarDestroyer tries to dictate that ST shields are like a Reciprocating Saw that goes back and forth at certain frequencies and if you match that frequency, u can catch an instant when it isn't cutting. Then we're supposed to believe SW shields are like a band saw that is just cutting at all times. However, this is NOT what shield frequency is a reference to. Frequency would be a reference to the spacing and shape of the teeth on the saw. Star Trek shields ARE always cutting, but they adjust the shape and spacing of the teeth to optimize their cutting potential. (Granted, this would seem a more appropriate analogy for weapons frequency, but it deals with both.

    An 'energy field' is like a field of electromagnetic particles, just like energy weapon beams (and bolts) are tightly focused fields of particles. These particles are like the 'wiring grid' for transferring waves of energy at varying intensity & polarity. Those waves end up similar to teeth on a saw, but as Star Wars only knows how make longer teeth, Star Trek technology allows them to reshape, off-set and re-order teeth.

    Star Trek shield frequency modulation capability is essentially their extreme control over the phase, alignments, and polarities of the energy waves in the energy field, and they can do the same with weapons. It's not at all like timing a machine gun to a plane propeller which implies physical gaps, because the only gaps are the spaces between particles, which much like solid matter, it's only as 'solid' as is the density of its atoms. But I assure you, the energy field concept in SW and ST are exactly the same. It's just a particle field with EM waves traveling throughout.

    Anyway, hope this clears things up, but I've OCD'd on this as much as I care to for now. lol
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2013
  17. LoRaan Registered Senior Member

    First of all it wasn't a phaser strike that EVER ignited an atmosphere. They had to use the Main Deflector on an atmosphere that was already prone ignition. That is the ONLY time an atmosphere was ignited.
  18. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

    Well, technically in the episode you are talking about, they used the phasers to turn the dust and debris in the atmosphere from the volcanic eruptions into an energetic plasma that was then siphoned off by the main deflector by... well, they never quite explain HOW it was siphoned off... *shrugs*. But now, in TOS, they mention at least once, I think twice, about how firing on the planet with enough power to do the job they wanted would potentially ignite/immolate the atmosphere.
  19. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

    I apologize for missing this earlier:

    How are you getting a speed of 2km a second for both the ship and the asteroid? Just curious, because looking at a frame-by-frame still of the scene, the ship is most certainly NOT covering more than its own length every second... in fact, it looks to travel a total of about 10-15% of it's length in 10 frames. A 30FPS, that would give us 160 meters in roughly 3/10ths of a second, or about 480 meters per second. Round up to 500 to make the math simple. Assuming the asteroid is doing even twice that, and you have to greatly cut down your numbers. Now admittedly, that's a very rudimentary analysis that I did in all of like, 30 seconds. If we took the time to measure it all correctly I'm curious to know what we'd come up with.

    Well, as above, I already showed that it's not moving 4,000 m/s, but in fact roughly 1,500 m/s. Also, why are you immediately assuming the asteroid is as dense as iron? It could be a rocky core with an ice surface, like the asteroid Ceres. It could be like Vesta with a nickel-iron core, olivine mantle, and basalt rock crust. Heck, 10 Hygiea is primarily water and silicates. Many of the largest asteroids (those with their own moons) are piles of rubble held together by gravity and are thought to possibly even be hollow or have large caverns inside. So... a 40 meter sphere of Iron seems silly?

  20. alpinedigital Registered Senior Member

    If you spend some time looking at quantum physics stuff, you'll find out a lot more that explains the sciences of both sides without having speculative argument attempting to convince you. I've spent countless hours at Wikipedia digging through actual physics that explain more than I've ever learned reading debates or ST/SW descriptions and explanations. Now, I'm only human, prone to make the same mistakes in interpretations and understanding as anyone else who doesn't have a professor telling them if they're right or wrong, so take this, read and understand it, and choose for yourself if it makes sense:

    Shields are electromagnetic energy barriers. They are caused by emitting EM fields which carry enough charge to counteract the passing of energy and matter. Matter is made up of atoms spaced so far apart that if it all had neutral charges, it would pass right through other matter. The strong nuclear forces in matter 'repels', giving matter the physical nature of being 'solid'. As particles of matter and energy interact with the shields, matter would be repelled or deflected while the energy would be repelled or absorbed, in some cases, potentially changing the polarity of the EM energy, which is the case with ion cannons and ion storms - ionic energy actually effects the polarity of the EM field which is then carried back to the ship as a massive energy surge that more or less disrupts the energy throughout connected systems and they all go hay-wire or shut down.

    Now, the 400 GW thing: Earlier in the episode, Worf said 'equivalent firepower - 40 megawatts'. The 'equivalent' part is the key word, because it is a power level conversion of the energy type that was explained as positrons and anti-protons. These are the 'antimatter equivalent' -NOT that they are 'matter' so much as they are the anti-matter version of charged particles. Shields would function using normal protons and electrons. Ion radiation is like saturation with waves of positive and negative energy which is chaos to any EM field, so ion weapons are perfect weapons against shield defenses - they not only disrupt the energy of the shields but also connected ships systems, but ions are still normal electrons and protons. However, this god-like entity in The Survivors episode that 'willed' the ship into existence went one step better in blasting the Enterprise with the antimatter versions of the charge carrying particles.

    Im kinda surprised that when Worf mentioned the blast of 'positrons and anti-protons' it didnt only raise concerns but intrigue as well. This would be the evil twin of an ionic weapon. Of any weapon in a science fiction arsenal - this would be the way up there with the 'holy grail' level weapons. Not only is it bringing chaotic energy charges like an ion cannon but it obliterates the particles of energy it comes into contact with... hense - Worf's problem with re-assembling the shields. A positron & anti-proton blast is literally a shield system's worst enemy. It's a proverbial bitch-slap to those who think their shields offer any protection at all.
  21. Layman Totally Internally Reflected Valued Senior Member

    I think you underestimate the ingenuity of a Star Fleet crew. Even if they where outmatched and outgunned they would know this before they even entered the encounter. They would then come up with a way to overcome that obstacle. In Star Wars the Death Star was taken down by a small personal fighter craft with no shielding and a small arsenal of weapons.

    The ship computers are much more advanced in Star Trek than in Star Wars, they would be able to scan a ship and then be able to find such weaknesses almost instantly. The advanced technology in Star Trek was attributed to a time traveler going back to the 20th century. In Star Wars they still used the same electronics that they used in the early 20th century. Any type of electronic warfare would favor the Star Trek universe that they would most likely use if they where simply out powered with a large scale technology that really wasn't more advanced than their own.

    If their plan went wrong they could always eject the warp core and ignite it for an explosion that would destroy the other ship. It didn't seem like the big ships in Star Wars even had shields surrounding their ships, otherwise the small personal fighters that they use to battle them would be completely ineffective. They wouldn't be able to penetrate the shields in the Star Trek universe without having some type of shielding of their own and knowledge of the Star Trek type ship. I think the answer would be simple sense Star Wars has troubles with these "space flies" and the Star Trek ships wouldn't. In the instance they had to abandon ship they could possibly take out the enemy in a shuttle craft that would be a bigger threat than a x-wing.

    It probably would only take one photon torpedo to take down a destroyer in Star Wars. A photon torpedo or quantum torpedoes can level an entire city. Janeway fired a few at a planet and one volley leveled entire regions of a continent, it is like dropping an environmentally friendly nuke on your enemy. With no outer shielding or special material hull plating they would be destroyed, it would be a lot more damaged than just getting hit by a tie fighters laser beam. I think they used these in a holocaust they had in world war 3 in the Star Trek timeline. You will never see an Arab in the Star Trek series.
  22. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

    Well, don't forget, the Federation uses a shield grid made of multiple graviton field generators coupled with an unnamed (as far as I know) shield emitter, which hints at some sort of gravitational component to the shields.
  23. alpinedigital Registered Senior Member

    Yeah, that probably gives unique and exotic properties, OR creates a more efficient field. I just glanced over a bit of it. VERY interesting stuff. On one page, I saw a 'measuring of current density' which is 'electric current per unit area of cross section' expressed in 'amperes per square metre'. Kinda interesting but basically says bigger amps need fatter speaker wire to deliver efficiently LOL

    I'll be back after I wrap up what Im doing and stick my head in a few (10) Wiki pages. Force carrier particles and condensed-matter physics and stress-energy tensors... It's completely bad-ass the level of quantum physics technology they get into in ST if you really know a lot of that techno-babble isn't just sophisticated dialog BS but often references actual science.. its almost like when they DO use BS or goof up a reference, it could be an inside joke to see if anyone would catch it. lol Except I did read in The Royale, LeVar botched a Celsius/Fahrenheit reference which made the temp less than absolute zero. (oops) haha
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