Star Wars vs Star Trek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Pollux V, May 9, 2002.


Which universe would win?

  1. Star Trek

    227 vote(s)
  2. Star Wars

    268 vote(s)
  3. Spaceballs

    47 vote(s)
  4. Farscape

    12 vote(s)
  5. Dune

    50 vote(s)
  6. Stargate

    36 vote(s)
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  1. LoRaan Registered Senior Member

    Actually there are many cases of ships blowing up galacxy class cruiser based on the poor maneuverbility of said design. The author probably Said Ent-D as it is the most famous of the GCSs. In most cases the GCS in question was functioning normally, especially the one taken out via Jem H'dar suicide ram.

    The point is, and Lt. Paris actually stated it, Federation ships are massive clumsy vessels. The Defiant and Intrepid are the first vessel types to move away from that, but still the alrger vessels are not anymore or less manuverable than Captial SW vessels.

    Actually the main movies only show but a few space battles, and in some of those dodging the enemy was not done for any number of reasons. Hell we see in ROTJ the massive Mon Cal ships perfrorming evasive maneuvers in order to avoid long range attacks, but due to general Calrissians suggestion close to point blank where any EM would be pointless considering the size of vessels involved.

    During the chase of the Millenium Falcon, three Star Destroyers take immediate (and violent) evasive actions to avoid colliding with two others.

    The Myth of poor SW ship manuverbility is just that, a myth. Same for Star Treks non warp combat limitation, though anyone will admit combat at warp seems to radically weaken the weapons systems.
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2011
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  3. LoRaan Registered Senior Member

    Yes and Scotty wasn't even sure he could do it. When he did it took quite a bit of the power of a Bird of Prey to the point main lights dimmed and the vessel need several seconds to get back to being able to move.

    Alright it is possible to move at warp and fire, however in every case this was done the firepower of the Weaponry was VASTLY reduced. Even in Nemesis it took several Photon torpedos to drop the Enterprise out of Warp. Even then the Scimitar did not attempt to warp strafe the Enterprise even though the former was cloaked. The vessel slowled to Impulse and engaged in a protracted sublight fight with the Enterprise E and two Romulan cruisers. In this battle the ships moved at speads of several kilometers per second based on ship size and speed. The same can be true of 99.9% of all ST battles.

    Conclusion: Warp Strafing is possible but weapons systems are severly weakened when it is done.

    As for SW speed, the Ships have shown incredibly fast sublight speeds when making manuevers. In ROTJ, the Imperial fleet was on the far side of Endor, a gass ginat and moved into the trap position in a matter of minutes and without the obvious telltale alerts of a ship dropping out of hyperspace. This gives a not battle transit speed equivalent to the ST starships. In combat the vessels move sever km per seciind again based on ship size and apparrrant speed.

    Conclusion: SW ships are at least half as fast as ST ships with it comes to sublight.
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  5. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Considering a Galaxy-Class vessel as "clumsy" because a Jem'Hadar bugship can ram it... well, you may as well say an F-22 Falcon is "clumsy" because I can turn around faster than it can... the comparison doesn't even begin to make sense here.

    The reason why Trek rarely dodges is because it just isn't worthwhile, especially given their weapons speed and range - and the fact that it helps more to dump the power from propulsion into shields or weapons.

    And yes, the ships in Star Wars are incredibly cumbersome... in fact, I think the fastest I ever saw a capital ship in Star Wars "turn" was the Executors swan-dive into the Death Star after her bridge was pasted by an A-Wing - even the Falcon has a crazy huge turning radius in most maneuvers (many times it's own length). Yes, now and then she turns inside of one or two ship lengths, but not often.
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  7. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Do remember... this is the same Bird of Prey that had just gone BACK IN TIME by exceeding the warp barrier... the same BoP that Scotty had re-formed the dilithium crystals via nuclear radiation from a US Aircraft Carrier... I hardly think that is an apt comparison to a modern Starship...

    The only weapons to suffer a degredation of firepower at Warp are beam/pulse weapons (phasers, disruptors, etc). Torpedoes are entirely uneffected. And actually, if you listen to what Geordi said, the first 2-3 shots disabled the warp core.

    False, as there is no evidence to support Torpedoes are weakened at warp in any way.

    Do recall - Trek ships have an impulse "speed limit" imposed to prevent temporal fuckery from high relativistic speeds without the use of a Warp Drive - impulse can push a ship (according to dialogue) to nearly 80% the speed of light... though you suffer all the relativistic effects doing so.
  8. LoRaan Registered Senior Member

    Actually as we never ever see the GCS perform manuevers like the Defiant or the Intrepid class can as well as a native expert claiming that pretty much every Federation vessels is incapable of making the manuevers needed to survive a certain anomaly is pretty damning evidence.

    As for your red herring; No the comparison is more making to claiming a Frigate is not as manuverable as a PT Boat.

    We also have countless scenes where a GCS fails to make even half way decent evasive manuevers attempts. A very damning case in point being the final fight of the Enterprise.

    Now yes the fasted Captial Ship turn was definately the Executor's swan dive, however in same movie we saw Mon Calamari ship make 10 and 20 degree turns almost instantly in response to Death Star fire.And I would point out that the very fact the Executor did that 'swan dive' mean practically any Star Wars vessel is capable of manuvering like that and remaing structurally intact. I would also point out that in close range combat making such manuevers would not like through off enemy aim as your vessel is CITY sized.

    As for the Millenium Falcon turn rate you are obviously referring to the one time in Empire Strikes back when Han made his 'Suicide run' on the ISD. COmpletely forgetting that earlier in same movie he'd made a more than ninety degree turn in less than his hull length, hand manuever in and asteroid field that was incredible dense. You also ignore actions in ROTJ where sharp turns and manuvers in tight spaces.
  9. LoRaan Registered Senior Member

    The same ship they intended to take forward in time with said extra weight so the Dilithium crystals must have been MORE than fine. So your comment is illogical. If beaming up whales and a tank of water is enough to bring a BoP power level so drastically low than would even a GCS or Sovereign be performing more than one or two operations like that at a time.

    Yes, the three Photon torpedoses only knocked Warp offline on a unshielded ship. We know from other battles 3 full photns to an shielded ships enegieering section should have left the vessel nearly crippled and almost exploding.

    See above.

    Meanwhile Star Wars ships suffer only such temporal problems when their temporal shields are danaged or miscalaibrated. Remeber Star trek cheats FTL by ending space. Star Wars just shunts themselves to a noneistienian reality where they use normal engines to exceed light through acceleration.
  10. alpinedigital Registered Senior Member


    Maybe one day u pay attention cuz I've pointed out that the Ent D whipped a 180 and jumped to warp in 3 seconds I think in the episode The Chase, and their first encounter with Q, they separated the saucer section at Warp, then whipped a 180 while at Warp. They've OBVIOUSLY been shown to fire at warp, and some weapons are even capable of maintaining warp speed when fired at warp so DUH!! Yes they CAN MANEUVER AND ATTACK CLEAR UP TO WARP SPEED.
  11. alpinedigital Registered Senior Member

    You need to watch that show again, and actually, NOT COMMENT since you're so unsure about what you speak of. This is like several times you speak and stick your foot in your mouth each time.

    If you're referring to the Cause & Effect episode, the reason they didnt maneuver out of the way is because the temporal distortion was effecting ships systems. Why do you think they were left considering other options like tractor beam and decompressing a cargo bay if they weren't already unable to 'back away' as was suggested even before the other ship emerged?
  12. alpinedigital Registered Senior Member

    Unless u can show me a Star Destroyer bust a 180 and giddy-up at warp speed, then just stop arguing. It's pointless. SW FTL is a completely separate realm of space, not normal space where all the tracking and sensors and weapons work on other things in normal space. And as stated, Trek ships can utilize any speed. SW ships have cruise, and chase; Otherwise they take hyperspace.

    So chalk up ALL that slow ass SW crap as pathetically slow. I won't entertaining the BS "They were behind a moon and then they are real close" crap, get the numbers. Not an event skipped ahead so it fits in the scene of a movie. Not a camera effects trick to make it look like its haulin ass.
  13. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Problem - The acceleration delay between slow-reverse impulse and top warp speed, or about warp 9, was 0.300 milliseconds. (TNG: "The Last Outpost")

    Hardly - more aptly would be comparing an Iowa-class Battleship to a PT Boat.

    Again - evasive maneuvers in Trek would hardly make sense - you are talking a weapon system that fires at relativistic speeds and expecting a person to be able to react to that in time to make a starship dodge it... why not try dodging, say, crossbow bolt and then tell me why the claim that because they DON'T dodge means they are cumbersome makes no sense.

    Yet those Star Destroyers couldn't avoid one another? And why didn't the Executor simply turn broadside once her forward shields fell?

    I do not profess to have a photographic memory of every sequence in Star Wars - none the less, some scenes do stick out to me (another one being when he dove into the "asteroid" to hide - he did a loop and dove into it instead of a straight dive)
  14. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Perhaps - however, we don't know how Klingon ships are wired, nor the real output of a BoP's reactor - a single Bird of Prey is a match for a Constitution class Starship... how do you think that old Connie would fare against a Sovereign, considering the massive advancements in Warp technology?

    Actually, they were disruptor blasts (not photon torpedoes). Also do note - the Sovereign class has full-body Ablative armor, where as the Galaxy Class, Akira, Nova, Norway, and others only have it in the most important sections. The Defiant is the only other ship (aside from Prometheus) to have full-body Ablative Armor (oh, and the Lakota)


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    Exactly, which is why Star Wars is utterly Impotent at HyperSpace. Whereas Trek can fight, see, steer, and all of that at Warp. Now, Trek DOES have Quantum Slipstream drive, which is similar to HyperSpace in that it's straight line, no fighting, holy mother of god GO GO GO.

    Oh, and also:

    I forgot about the Stardrive section pulling the 180* turn while still at warp

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    BTW - it's nice to debate with someone who is civilized LoRaan

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    A pleasure!
  15. George1 Registered Senior Member

    yeah, sure. we didn't see them doing sharp maneuvers, yes. why would they? they were so close that if they tried anything, they might have REALLY collided and do very serious damage.

    yes that. and i am fair enough to admit my mistake; i was not aware of the power lost.

    you said it: you didn't invent the canon system. and everything from C and above is valid material that can be used in this argument. furthermore, in the movies we don't have many occasions in which they should do sharp turns. but see, there are many factors which can make a sharp turn unnecessary.

    which raises the question of why they would do it with SW ships.

    and how is that of any relevance to the argument, exactly? just hear this one out. ok, they can fight, see, steer, and all of that at Warp. so what? remember, their not actually moving in any way. from the ships perspective, and in fact the space around them, their in the same place. that's why they can do all of that. when they fire at ships not at warp, their weapons are weaker and less accurate because of the warped space. just one request, PLEASE: bring relevant things that actually would make a difference in a fight. this one isn't one of them.

    yes, i saw the fire at warp. but at other ships ALSO at warp, and when they fire at sublight vessels, they always have to drop out of warp. WHY? just warp around and finish them. oh, that's right, their weapons are weaker and precision reduced. and yes i do remember those 180 turns. THEY WERE STILL. weren't moving. they were in orbit once, and turned around, but since you don't use much of the engines in orbit except maybe for correcting it, the 180 turn is also irreverent. they never use it in combat. also, while at warp, just to point this one out, YOUR NOT ACTUALLY MOVING.

    as i already admired to make a mistake, i won't continue.
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2011
  16. Believe Happy medium Valued Senior Member

    LOL, I can't believe that you are still here arguing this. You really are George Lucas aren't you.

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  17. George1 Registered Senior Member

    last time, NOOOOOO
  18. LoRaan Registered Senior Member


    You don't get the make the rules here.

    And anyways there were on the far side of a Gas Giant. The battle of Endor was actually waged over a moon of the Gas Giant Endor. Just like the Battle of Yavin was over the a moon of the Gas Giant Yavin. Which i will pint out that they magaed to complete a quarter of a very large orbit in fifteen minutes.

    And like ST has ever given us numbers. They merely state Impulse and Warp speed. only in the non canon technical manuals do we see any numbers that tell us what those mean.
  19. LoRaan Registered Senior Member

    A single BoP is not a match for the on Constitution, remeber they outgunned them six to one. However the beaming of those whales and water still drained the ship to minimal power levels for several second. I am not arguing a Galax CLass ship could not do it or even do a dozen such exercises, but they would not be able to do it on a repeated basis or in any sort of Electronic Warfare environement. It's be a great trick to pull for a rescue operation, but would not work on a strategic level.

    There were Disrupter (the equal of Half to 3/4 photons) and Photns and still despite firing on an unshielded vessel it took more than one shot despite Precision trargetting. Also not Shinzon did not use warp strafing to make himself immune to counter fire despite the fact he could have. There is only one reason to slow the vessel down and that would be to bc using the weapons at warp weakens them.

    yes you were and quite effectively.

    Actually in the description of hyperspace travel the ship moves about fairly well, most plot a straight hyperspace jump as it is easiest, but plotting while still travelling is possible as is plotting corse that make turns bansk and radical shifts in direction.

    Thank you, but if you are gonna continue to debate you must allow some concession based on what we see. Remember spoken dialogue does not mean much of anything unless it is backed up by visuals. Humanoids are too prone to exaggeration, hyperbole, and mistakes.
  20. LoRaan Registered Senior Member

    So, you still have to plot your course and have human reactions to hit engage and of course pray local time space doesn;t say F you like it does sometimes in both universes.

    I chose the Frigate as it somewhat manueverable. Frigate being GCS and PT boat being Defiant.

    Actually they do make sense people dodge crossbows and gunfire everyday, a target that is moving evasively is harder to hit. So at longer ranges in ST and SW evasive manuevers is quite smart.Especially with the odd shape of some ST vessels.

    Actually those three did. The Three ships that were destroyed by collision were pasted by the Executor, and even that failed to penetrate her shields.

    As for the Executor turning, she lost forward deflector screens but the big ships were to the sides, only fighters were swarming from the front. Which do you protect yourself from the few scorpians in front of yu or the two Grizzly bears at your sides.

    Yes, han like acrobatic manuevers, but he had to fly above the hole to see if it was good for his needs before he decided to fly in there. As for his huge banking turn he was being tracked by weapons firing on him. turning in place, like we saw the vessel do in Mos Eisely and the Death Satr Docking bay, would be stupid. Making the guns try to track you through a turn, much smarter.
  21. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    I apologize - i thought the argument was that the Galaxy or Sovereign did not have the power to do it at all - my mistake.

    Where do we hear that disruptors are 3/4 a photon torpedo's strength? And no, they were just disruptor blasts at first - remember, the Scimitar had 52 pulse disruptor - plenty enough for a volley

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    In SW: TCW series it was stated that hyperspace jumps had to be plotted around objects in a series of jumps because they couldn't turn in hyperspace - is the retconned in the movies?

    The issue with that is that many of the visuals cannot even be shown to us - much like relativistic weapons and long range space combat - reason being is it would make for an incredibly boring show (after all, you couldn't see a light-speed weapon or ship, much less at the ranges they are fighting). We have to assume the officers in charge are at least somewhat competent in what they are saying

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  22. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    True, though for the most part they point the ship in the direction they want to travel and let the computer handle most of the time-space dickery

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    Thing is, though, with subspace fields pulling mass-lightening tricks, inertia starts to go out the window - it's why the Ent-E is capable of turning inside her own shiplength despite being incredibly long and very massive.

    True in the sense that you can throw off a persons aim - a computer is much harder to dodge, especially when you only have to aim a microsecond ahead of where they are to ensure a hit (such as with a phaser)

    I'd be more worried about the Scorpians if I knew my massive cannons weren't really capable of hitting them - focus on the targets you can hit

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    Perhaps, but wouldn't a tighter turn result in a faster deviation from the previous vector, especially when linking those turns in series?
  23. LoRaan Registered Senior Member

    and yet still it can straight to hell, even computers fail sometimes and them more viables there are the worse it gets.

    And yet most of the time she makes massive sweeping curves just like the Flacon did in it;s power turn.

    Okay we know that is not true when it comes to Phasers because of the time needed for lock on as well as the fact that part of the reason TNG on phasers hit at all is they use a firehose sweep effect most of the time, unless the Captain call for pin point aiming and even then the vessel they are shooting has to be perfect still and not pumping out Electronic warfare.

    But opening your defenses to the grizzly bears means you die instantly versus the 1 in a thousand cahnce one of those scorpian manages to pierce your clothing and you skin with enouch venom to kill you. Admiral Piet made the smart bet, the poroblem was the rebels managed to pull to an inside royal flush.

    Not actually a tighter turn mean less distance form original position and new position...

    Plus Han was aiming for a particular spot, pulling a 180 in place, something wer know is possible given ANH may not have put him in positon. He was also accellerating through his turn and then cut engines when he was in position.

    BTW the Star trek universe doe have a way of turning at high speed, High Energy turns used in TOS and Undiscovered Country. Basically using the Warp drive to spin the ship about in place. You could even pull off a 359 degree turn, but why would you want to? This turn however is dangerous and can cuase extreme damage to a ship if used improperly.
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