Star Wars vs Star Trek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Pollux V, May 9, 2002.


Which universe would win?

  1. Star Trek

    227 vote(s)
  2. Star Wars

    268 vote(s)
  3. Spaceballs

    47 vote(s)
  4. Farscape

    12 vote(s)
  5. Dune

    50 vote(s)
  6. Stargate

    36 vote(s)
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  1. Believe Happy medium Valued Senior Member

    Seriously guys, stop feeding the troll. The more you argue the more he will refuse to listen. Honestly, he probably does listen, maybe he even agrees with you but he will not stop until you do. Give up and come back later after he leaves. Then we can have good conversation about this topic.
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  3. George1 Registered Senior Member

    that was my mistake. see, unlike you guys, i admit i make mistakes, when you seam to just thing yourselves perfect of something like that. ever heard of human nature? a part of it involves making mistakes, which i admit doing.

    unlike you guys, i can admit them.

    now, how do you stop light using frequencies base shields? gravitons can bend light, but they can't stop them, so lasers would pass through if light can. and light passes through all the time!
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  5. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Indeed... it's not even a refusal to listen - it's either he's trying to troll us, or he's really that stupid... and I don't know which to think.
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  7. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    No, but the fact is that a simpler machine cannot become more powerful without becoming more complicated in the process.

    First off, for starters. lasers are inefficient and there is no significant threat to the federation by any species primitive enough to use lasers. The navigational shields themselves can block lasers, those aren't even the main defensive shields.

    Look, your understanding of actual physics is so limited that I could hear the sound of it going over your head like a sonic boom.

    I never said it was an electromagnetic field.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Look, a quick lesson in quantum mechanics. There are four fundamental forces in the universe: strong interaction forces, weak interaction forces, electromagnetism, and gravitation.

    Three of them have carrier particles. For electromagnetism it is the photon. As far as we know (in real life) gravitation has no carrier particle that we can readily prove with modern technology.

    In science fiction the common carrier particle for gravitation is the graviton (it is a hypothetical particle in real life physics but has not been proven).

    When I said that star wars shields operated on the basis of electromagnetism I literally meant that they operated with the fundamental concept of electromagnetism. Now keep in mind that just because the carrier particle is the photon that it can readily block it, thats not what it means. Star wars shields operate on the concept of a very highly charged shield that will absorb plasma bolts. The concept of charge is part of electromagnetism.

    In star trek the shields are based off of the concept of gravitation. The shields create a high level of energetic distortion which contains a high concentration of gravitons.

    The advantage of gravitation shielding is this. A shield based off of the fundamental force of electromagnetism can only block things that are charged. Its like having the worlds strongest magnet and then sliding a rubber eraser across it. It doesn't matter how powerful the shield is, if the thing does not conduct charge then it simply will not block that thing.

    But trek shields are based off of gravitation. The tremendous advantage of this is that practically everything can be affected by gravitation. Light, plasma, torpedos, etc...

    you literally just said like a sentence or two ago that "simple is sometimes better."

    You have no proof otherwise, and considering the nature of star wars shields, the weapons they defend against, their nature, and their inability to stop solid objects then yah. They work off of a pretty similar concept.

    Its not caused by magnetic lines, theyre caused by the release of magnetic energy.

    Yes it is idiotic. A particle energy weapon is basically anything that shoots a particle at greater then 0 m/s, hell, according to that my breathing is a particle energy weapon.

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    What is up with you and solar flares?

    Why are you dumb enough to thing that it would dissipate so quickly? That stuff is moving pretty damn fast. And in case your too dumb to figure it out, solar flares also dissipate.

    It does not carry energy, it has energy and then transfers it to whatever it hits.

    So that means that star wars races are complete morons. It took humans all of maybe a century at most to realize that plasma was inefficient and phasers were better. It took them two centuries to come up with something better then a missile.

    Yet star wars has been using both of them for 20,000 years and are still clueless to how silly they are.

    A phaser is far more efficient then a turbolaser. And considering that none of your ships could block a phaser let alone a 200+ isoton proton torpedo then you lose. Especially since a spread of them from a single research vessel from the federation could obliterate five star destroyers.

    You haven't even proven your an adult. Your such a smart ass I bet you can sit on an ice cream and tell me what flavor it is. You have your head so far up your ass you can chew food on its way down.

    You lose kido. Go back to your homework. There is no reason to believe that star wars shields could ever block a phaser.
  8. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    My problem isn't that you make mistakes. Its that you were dumb enough to think they were right in the first place.

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    And star wars doesn't use lasers.

    You still don't get it you idiot. There is no such thing as a frequency shield. It is a shield with an oscillating field that can be manipulated to oscillate and various different frequencies.

    The shields only really affect light when they are being hit. The upper layer of the shield holds the gravitons inside of the shield. The gravitons only affect light when the upper shield is hit by enough energy to energize the gravitons and make them work.

    Normal light is energized enough, but when a plasma beam hits it then it excites the gravitons, that is why when the shield gets hit not only does it reflect light so we can see it, it masks the ship itself and does stop light.
  9. Saquist Banned Banned

    Fascinating. George I'm not having a failure of comprehension and your statement in no way addresses my post. He shows explosions and according to my measurements he's literally showing and describing the explosions size in pixels to the Falcon's size in pixels.

    I'm sure from your perspective you believe that's true but I have no reason to lie. I'm not emotionally attached to the result of these observations like you are George. You and Kittamaru have gone back an forth so regularly it muddies the absolutes with agendas of ego rather than truth. I can't afford to reduce my reasoning to such a level or I compromise my objectivity and lose my foot hold on reasoning and make errors in judgment.

    What Wong has done is absolutely detestable to truth and at this junction a pattern has emerged from which I can logically determine that his objective is not truth it's propaganda.

    1. He falsely asserts that the Renegade Borg were destroyed by a CME and uses the Sol's solar particle density to calculate the maximum impact of solar radiation concluding meager numbers. However he ignores dialogue that confirms that the particle density was was not gaseous but in fact a dense super fluid.

    2. His size comparison on the page I linked shows no direct relation for the estimate of a 40 meter asteroid. NONE. Rather my images show the turbolaser bolts are quite small compared to known objects and with no evidence to the contrary implores us to logically conclude the asteroids were a mere 4 meters round. The same images prove these were small asteroids as they can be seen in the back ground impacting the Star Destroyer and they are considerably smaller than the the 40 meter wide shield dome on the top of the Command Tower.

    3. His size comparisons for the vaporizations at the bottom of the page in question confirm that his pixel count is mesureing the size of the Falcon and the explosions not the asteroids themselves.

    Now it makes sense the picture you posted that also showed an explosion.
    You did not comply with the request of posting a picture of the actual asteroid in HD. You posted an explosion just like Wong. You are repeating his dishonesty with high fidelity, George.

    They have nothing to do with the page in question.

    I'm not going to call you stupid. Ridicule serves no logical purpose.
    it means short:

    It has been thus proven.
    It is your job to debunk the facts of my measurements and you have not and thus you have not logical basis for you assertion of "can't".

    Yes, a link does suffice. On this forum it is considered a proper method of sourcing and reference. It is evidence provided. You haven't provided anything to the contrary and it is your burden to do so, George. Your rebuttal has amounted to an incoherent "what's so hard to understand about that?" which is neither proof, evidence nor deductive reasoning.
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2011
  10. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    Its common knowledge, you shouldnt even have to cite it.
  11. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    That's why I can't even be bothered to try to debate calmly with him anymore saquist - he has yet to provide any kind of evidence, deductive or inductive, to back his claims, yet he has the GALL to call us liars.

    I can't deal with the kind of desperate trash that slanders a persons reputation simply because they don't have an argument... it drives me straight up a wall.

    And after I took the time to help him with his driver issues (which, by the way, your average ten year old could figure out with a quick google search)... yeah, ungrateful little git he is.
  12. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Oy, you are absolutely dangerous. You know just enough science to mess everything up. You're the type of person who just bandy's about terms but never understands the full science behind them.

    Shield Frequency is something ST came up with. It's the idea that the shield flickers on and off so that the weapons can be fire out from inside. The reason being that in ST Shields try to impede everything travelling through. Gravitons, of course, being what gravity is made of and yes it effects nearly everything, not just photons.
  13. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    George, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
  14. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Excuse me? You are actually stating that a device cannot become more powerful without being more complicated. Are you kidding? Sorry, you must be. Think for a moment, isn't a Colt Peacemaker more powerfula Hangun than a Ruger .22 Automatic? Isn't the 16 inch gun on the USS Missouri more powerful than GAU-8 30mm Cannon? It's not about how sohpisticated the weapons is, but how much the destructive potential of it is.

    Then why in an earlier episode did the did the Borg cutting laser cut through the hull? Only deflectors were down, as without Structural Integrity Fields and navigationsal shiedls the ship would not be able to move without flying apart. Why in later episodes did Picard refuse to enter a field of Laser armed mines? If he was immmune he would have had no worries.

    The truth was that the Kilowatt level lasers mentioned in the Outrageous Okinawa were harmless, but certainly more powerful lasers would have been an issues

    This from the man who thought that gravitons only affects light.

    If you are gonna talk Quantum mechanics at least talk about instead of just pulling stuff like the above out.

    Actually, you'd just be plain wrong on both fronts. It's very clearly evident that both series use shields that emulate both types of forces as well as others. For instance SW actually have temporal shields that are used to make certain time travel is less prevalent in hyperspace.

    Yes, it is.
  15. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Well, technically, a Colt Peacemaker is more complicated than a Ruger .22 (at least in terms of production and finish). Also, you're kind of comparing apples to oranges here, especially with the 16 inch gun vs GAU-8...

    Then again, as you said a few hundred pages ago:

    1) Prove that the Borg didn't also drop navigational deflectors and/or structural integrity field.

    2) You are miquoting - from the episode:

    Picard - "Lasers can't even penetrate our navigation shields. Don't they know that?"

    Navigation SHIELDS, not Navigational Deflector (which is a projected energy field designed to move objects out of the path of the ship, not a shield). Obviously they are two different things.

    3) We've seen ships go to goddamn WARP without a Structual Integrity Field -

    Don't bullshit me about "alternate reality" and such - it's the same damn ship.

    4) I'm sorry, but even if you were immune to bullets, would you WILLINGLY let someone shoot you with a few hundred rounds, or just go around.

    Sorry, but you're lying out your ass AGAIN.

    You still have yet to prove this, especially as you ASSume that Star Trek shields work by overpowering incoming weapons fire (which we know all to well that they don't)

    Prove otherwise (for that matter, prove gravitons EXIST)

    If you're going to use English, at least use grammar; my point: Talk about what? (At least talk about instead of just pulling stuff like the above out) - talk about WHAT?

    Uh huh, so then why doesn't time dilation effect hyperspace weapons (like the Galaxy Gun - unless you wish to prove that it's projectiles are also shielded). Or how about the 'Vong, who didn't HAVE shields at all?

    Scott, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
  16. Saquist Banned Banned

    Upon reading his post I had to admit I had more than a small emotional reaction to it's lacking. I can understand being insolent when one has something to offer in the way of evidence or reasoning but I'm most disappointed to say his attitude was remarkably brusque and obtuse ...almost purposefully.
  17. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    Well if the constitution class could withstand what was it? like 30 photon torpedos at once, each with anywhere from 25 isotons to up to 200 isotons?

    That means a maximum of around 6,000 isotons worth of explosive damage at once without buckling.

    I dont think even your ludicrous claims for turbolaser weapon power could even touch that one. You could go banging away for an hour and still not hit the hull.
  18. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    I said that in order to make a weapon more deadly it needs to be made more complicated. In order to make a 30 mm more deadly you need to create DU rounds which complicate things, weight wise and construction wise.

    In order to improve on the concept of the CIWS you need the high energy tactical laser system which vastly complicates things. In order to improve on the fission bomb you need to complicate things to create the fusion bomb.

    Yea, thats exactly what I am saying, a singular device can rarely be significantly improved upon by making it simpler.

    Tell me, how exactly are you going to improve upon lets say... the automobile without making it more complicated in some form or fashion? And all things considered, those sixteen inch guns are rather worthless considering that theyve been mothballed, and comparing those things to the 30mm is like comparing a hand grenade to a 150 mm artillery round.

    And as a matter of fact, those 16 inch cannons are vastly, and I stress, VASTLY more complicated then the GAU-8 30 mm.

    If I gave you a serious answer it would cause you to go into a rant/lecture which would further serve to bore me and reinforce some sort of internal quest of yours to obtain the biggest ego imaginable.

    And if those mines are armed with lasers chances are it means they are tripwire activated by lasers.

    Really? Where? Your just making stuff up you pompous delusional prick.

    Bull, there is no reason to believe whatsoever that star wars has graviton based shields. Afterall, if they did then why are they so scared of going to hyperspace without a course? Star wars cannot manipulate gravitons. Which is yet another advantage trek has. Star wars would be flying blind in trek. All that needs to happen is for trek to set up mine fields of self replicating cloaked mines on all major hyperspace pathways. And wars could never do anything about it.

    You lose.
  19. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Exactly... I mean, simple mistakes, I can forgive, and will even help to educate on... but what he's doing is, as far as I can tell, simple trolling. I refuse to believe another human being can actually be that stupid and know how to utilize a computer, even for it's most basic of purposes.
  20. Saquist Banned Banned

    The level of research done on the thread has been most profound. We've discovered a great deal not just on the Trek side but the Star Wars side aswell. It's unfortunante there are no competent debators on the other side. What is with the Star Wars side of the debate? I try not to use the word ridiculous too much. Many things are ridiculed but few things actually are worthy of it. Ricery and TWSCOTT and some of these other are quite disturbing. I can't fathom thinking in such a fog. It really MATTERS to these people that Star Wars be's almost a psychosis.

    Nevertheless I've learned so much from the debate.
  21. George1 Registered Senior Member

    that is a trek nonsense. it dose not really applied in REALITY.
    aha. that's nonsense! first of, lasers are light! if shields work as you said, they should be invisible.
    the carrier particle for gravity is a graviton. and you accuse me of not understanding physics?
    the graviton has a lot of support in real science. it didn't appear in scyfi, but as a theory in the scientific community.
    right. first of, there is zero reasons to assume what you said about the shields to be real, cuz a lot of evidence proves the shields dose not just absorbs the bolt, it also radiates it.
    again, there is absolutely no evidence to assume they work as you said! they also block dam solid things,remember? they always have to LOWER the shield in order for others ships to dock or land on them? ignorant!
    no, i said that just because it is more complicated it is not necessary better. i see you go with kit and warp words now.
    lie. again, remember the endor shield? it had to be LOWER for them to land. or the ray shield from revenge of the sith that captured the rescue team on board Grievous' cruiser??? before you go and just make assumptions, how about you actually study the nature of the object in question, and not lie!
    solar flares are cause by the release of magnetic lines. the energy from the solar atmosphere is then release. and in case you really made no research in the SW universe, turbolasers are always described as particle weapons. reed before making assumptions!

    right. this right here proves you have no actual idea of how real technology works. in 20,000 years, they were using the same thing because the almighty phaser is just as stupid as the transporter; a fiction of really bad scyfi, but i won't go into that right now.
    first: isoton= unit unknown. its fictional and has no meaning. NONE! use real units or fuck of, cuz 200 isoton's has absolutely no meaning.
    second: they had shields capable of enveloping an entire planet, and the emitter was a lone not so big building.that is a fact, and the SD could resits gigatones of firepower. they alone put out gigatones of firepower.

    i have never claimed to be one, loser. neither did i ever.
    hehehe, so pathetic! so pathetic! there is no reason for this conversation to go on, since you, like kit, proved to be nothing more than a flamer who when corned, start's to attack people' "maturity". you lost pages ago. you have yet realize it however.
    get lost, and if you think yourself as "mature", look around: this is not a debate for mature persons. you as an "adult' being here proves just how pathetic you are; do you have nothing better to do? i don't!! but i'm 18, so fuck it. how old are 30,35? who the fuck do you think you are?
  22. George1 Registered Senior Member

    wow, i knew you have no basis in real science, but demanding this? what a pathetic loser! do you not know that gravitons are highly supported by real and actual scientists? the best of the world?
    you and fed should just fuck of really.
  23. George1 Registered Senior Member

    i have to say Saquist, you just integrated with kit and fed into their net of bullshit.
    end of story really! there is no reason for me to debate this subject with lairs and fact twisters!

    the fact that you attack Wong proves just how desperate your tactics are.
    fact: Wong has a doctorate in science, and has all the authority he can ever get in this debate. sorry. the "appeal to authority" thingy is just your way of saying "i don't care who he is, he is wrong, no matter what...cuz otherwise i am and that is unacceptable!" he HAS the authority, and no matter what you thing of him means nothing! all you demand is me to see lies. twisted facts.
    did you even know Wong actually likes star trek...well, as far as the original and the movies go, cuz that's actually the only part of trek that has any value, the others aren't even worthy of mention.

    i will kindly leave now, and hopefully you and your buddies can accept the facts sooner or later. hopefully sooner.

    i am leaving, well, this thread any way, because you are not people who anyone can have any reasonable debate with. kit and fed especially. so go milk something else, cuz eventually someone will come and fuck you guys of this thread in shame, and you should have something else to do.
    i for one don't have the nerves to do it! i started actually having nightmares with this debate, and that isn't a good sign for my health! no, really, i HAD nightmares with this!
    the nerves are killing me, just because of you deluded people who step and step and step and step on my nerves and can't simply admit something!
    my dam 8 years old sister can accept when she loses a fight with someone!what the fuck dose that tell about you pathetic "adults"????

    :facepalm: i hope you get what you deserve. please,do look about your claims again, look closely, and recalculate what you said.
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