Star wars vs Star trek another way to think about it

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Fettman, Jun 16, 2007.

?

Peace or war?

  1. Yes war, no peace

    13 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. Yes peace, no war

    13 vote(s)
    50.0%
  1. Picard578 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    8
    And why is capitalist system better than communist one?
     
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  3. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    6,230
    Did someone say it was?

    Historically, communist systems haven't been as effective as capitalist ones. Whether or not that would be true in a fantasy future setting, who knows...
     
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  5. Stray Dog5 Fear my bark Registered Senior Member

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  7. chaos1956 Banned Banned

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    238
    Are you sayin it was a bad idea to have put this "pursuit of happyness" into the Declaration of Independence. I think it was, those who are truly independent find the way they do thing best always. They leave no consideration for the deffinition of another persons terms of happiness. Causes this "justification" for why America is see throuought the world but as a race that only takes its non judgemental values and attempts to spread them throuought the world. Some people have seen our way of life both good and evil, yet countries continually hire people who are willing and ready to make a war with another counrty just to end their political problems. In doing so they reinstate one yet again with an unjust system. I say we can persue this happyness, but it will not be done with the current mindset of politicials. Sure they see the problems and attempt to do the best, but they always find solice in one main idea instead of looking at the roots. They get caught up in the problems left and embedded by some moron. They think if I fix this one thing that people do not understand, I will make the world a better place. They always miss the main points that a society always suffers with. The poor, the hungry, the unemployed. So these people become evil in their eyes like they do not exist anywhere in the world except other countries. Still the truly evil men are only the ones who find justification in the end by saying, "You know what lets just kill the evil people." That will almost surely stop this independent pursuit of Happyness that they flourish in. If we really think that killing people is what dictators and world leaders like to do, why do we keep hiring them? Oh wait we like to kill people too. You kill us we kill you back. That is truly a fair trade is it not? Still what about the dependant pursuit of happyness, the one that comes at the price of killing another man. They never feel this experience they are not soldiers or they were trained not to feel it in battle. Can we train people towards happyness? No, but we can easily make them not feel until they get PTSD. We will even send you to college for doing so. Freedom isn't free as long as we enjoy killing ourselves which is never going to end. And we are all more worried about which soldier sticks his dick up whos ass. Why? Its some kind of subconscious diversion to keep our mind off the ever present thought of killing these "evil" people.
     
  8. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    Um...Starfleet doesn't own everything. It may seem like that, simply because of the POV of the characters--who are 99% Starfleet personal.

    Things like transporters, shuttles, and even planets are government property. But that doesn't mean that the government runs everything. Hell, Sisko's wife has her own cargo ship and she doesn't report to anyone, save for maybe a union or station security.


    Except that those all tend to be Starfleet and Federation projects. Let's go through that, shall we?

    1) Starfleet owns all construction equipment regarding Starfleet ships because that's for Starfleet. It's no different than a military deciding that since they don't want anyone else to make them weapons, they'll make their own. That's not communisim, simply just another way of managment.

    2) We have no information based upon buildings and the like.

    3) Colonies belong to the Federation. They are first Federation property, not civilian property. It's not like the Federation was going to take their planets and tell them "tough shit" like most people would probably do; they went to the trouble of finding them new locations with similar properties and offered to help them set up shop again.

    Instead, the colonists decided that the planets that they were told they may be eventually forced to leave in the future were being given away--and decided to throw a baby fit over it. Even going so far as accusing Starfleet captains of being no different then the people who enforced the Trail of Tears.

    Since when?

    That has more to do with the fact that the replicator will create the dishes down to the period of what the recipie book says and doesn't have any "flare" to it. It's not like eating it is like white paste that may have a faint taste of steak. It is a steak, it's at the specific degree, and it's good.


    Again, I have to ask, since when?

    DS9's replicator created one well enough.

    Um...yes you can. You could replicate most of that stuff. Only the cars and a house would require assembly due to size limitations. Starfleet has in fact, given away industrial replicators; replicators solely given to the Bajorans and later the Cardassians to jump start their infrastructure. IRs literally allows you to build factories.

    The fact is, the Federation is a mixture of communisim and captalisim. The government does control more things and own more things, but that's simply because it's easier for them to do so. Is it really a big deal of the government automatically provides you with a warm home, a replicator, and the comforts of life?

    Now, Starfleet does use credits, which seems to be more aimed at purchasing the stuff that they don't give you. Starfleet officers and the like still recieve compensation for their services. Is it much? Probably not. In fact, things in Starfleet are probably really cheap because people don't need it to make a living off of. It'd probably give them a downright massive economical advantage since the government doesn't appear to suffer any massive burden by providing so much free stuff and thus people can afford to keep prices lower than a society that demands that you make money to survive.
     
  9. Stray Dog5 Fear my bark Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    74
    thanks for clearing that up hellblade
     
  10. Nasor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,230
    I didn't say that starfleet owns everything. I said that the Federation seems to control the means of production in their society.
    Okay, I'm going to need a reference. When was Sisko's wife shown to own a cargo ship?
    I am not aware of any examples of capitalist societies in which the military makes their own weapons. In virtually every capitalist country in the world, the military buys everything from nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers to helicopters and ICBMs from corporations. Hell, the USA even has its nuclear weapons built by private companies.
    It's not a "big deal," but it does mean that you're probably communist.
    It is generally accepted by most economists that the competitive, profit-driven nature of capitalism is what causes it to be more efficient than any other economic system. If you don't need to make money to survive, you have no incentive to innovate, increase efficiency, and find a way to make your prices lower than all your competitors.

    Also, when do we see them replicate complex machines on ST? I would appreciate some specific references. The fact that there are so many weapons dealers selling guns to various planets and factions seems to indicate that you can't just replicate up a phaser on demand, otherwise people would just do that instead of buying weapons from dealers.
     
  11. birch Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,077
    wrong. what motivates the drive to innovate and efficiency is improvement of living standards as well as natural interest. this is an ongoing process.

    most all inventions were out of pure necessity, desire for improvement or interest.

    competition is a zero sum game if it doesn't have a valid motive besides just competition for money or gain.

    capitalism may seem to work or is legitimate in the beginning but it shows it's a farce in the end.
     
  12. Nasor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,230
    Read what I said more carefully. The profit motivation is what causes capitalism to be more efficient than other economic systems. The desire to improve standard of living is present in pretty much any economic system. Capitalism adds extra motivation on top of that, resulting in even more incentive to improve efficiency.

    In any case, I'm not particularly interested in debating the merits of capitalism vs. communism. If you want to believe that capitalism is a "farce," I really don't care. I'm more interested in discussing what the various ST shows indicate about how the federation economy works.
     
  13. birch Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,077
    i disagree. no one wanted to truly improve anything with the incentive for gain. now, those who saw a way to use it as a way to profit is capitalism. i think capitalism just ends up resulting in the motivation for more money or who can take the most.

    take for instance the pharmaceutical companies that want to keep people sick in order for them to stay in business. not exactly working for true progression, efficiency or sanity i would say.
     
  14. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,478
    no money = no need to start your own business..
    there would be less incentive for privately owned businesses..

    i don't recall replicators capable of replicating anything real big..or complicated..but it could still replicate the parts needed for anything more complex and there would be no need for raw materials, replicators just take energy..

    they must have compensation as they would not be able to purchase items on other worlds, unless they replicate the cash...(i want one!)
     
  15. wish_08 Registered Member

    Messages:
    1
    I'm a Star Wars fan full stop! I'm pretty sure most people are. I actually came across these swimsuits yesterday and snapped a couple for Christmas, take a look for yourself shop. blackmilkclothing. com
     
  16. Stray Dog5 Fear my bark Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    74
    Whoppe!!!! for SW, goes and kills evey single one of them. Yes it wasn't me it was that dude there. Lol and yes I agree with u Nm
     
  17. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    Well, kinda old, but I might as well respond to Nasor since I forgot (and someone just linked this somewhere else).

    Which means...what?

    That this is bad? Hell, most of their production comes from replicators. How is this a bad thing?

    Since forever? That's her occupation. It's suggested to be a bit of a relic (ie, still using an old transporter model), but she's never at any point been shown to be involved with the Federation government in terms of her business, aside from her arrest.

    And this matters how? So what if a country has its own private weapons division? I don't see how this is a bad thing in general.

    I'm not particularly. Nor would I oppose being one if a modern method of achieving it were possible. Besides the anti-religious message, of course.

    When economists become experts on the human condition, let me know.

    Yes, the drive to survive is a strong motivator. But then again, so is boredom and social pressures. In the Federation, people have grown up with the mentality that they need to better themselves. We're told that in The Neutral Zone and First Contact that humanity is no longer motivated by greed, but a desire to make themselves better.

    We see the replicator in DS9's Ops station replicate a small phaser weapon that fired on all the people in Ops who weren't Cardassian officers. We also see that in an early DS9 episode, one man is able to use the station's replicators to mimic the design of a device that literally changes local probability in your favor.

    There's also the Class Four Industrial Replicators that the Federation gave to Bajor and later Cardassia so they could build power plants and factories rebuild their infrastructure as seen in' For the Cause'. Given that power plants in the Cardassian Union and the UFP are either matter-antimatter based or fusion based (most probably here), that would seem to indicate that the replicators have all the means to reproduce anything required to create a fusion reactor, as well as other factories for industrial purposes.


    Unless those planets or groups either lack access to those replicator patterns or the actual replicators needed to make it.

    Now, there are materials that replicators cannot mimic, suggesting that there are limitations. These seem to include special materials (dillithium, tritanium, latinum...ect.) so there are limits to them, but overall the replicator is a device that is incredibly useful.
     

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