Star Trek vs Warhammer 40k

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by ricrery, Oct 8, 2009.

  1. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    Actually the hive mind has displayed superb intelligence many many many times over. Who needs careful strategies when you can just zerg rush an enemy. Remember, the tyranids digest bodies, friend or foe, dead or alive. So they have no reason to worry about casualties. The only cases in which they have ever used tactics and strategems is when the zerg rush fails, and when they do use tactics they tend to be spectacular. Entire worlds have been known to be destroyed by single tyranids alone acting intelligently.

    It is also known that the higher the synapse present the more intelligence that an individual tyranid will display. Lets face it, as far as tactics go in star trek... there are practically none at all, what few tactics exist are rudimentary and basic at best.

    And we both know that even if the UFP could kill 1,000 nids for every man they lose at the end of the day the nids would still win.
     
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  3. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

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    This was considered a viable tactic for against Species 8472. Nor do they have to make the explosion that big; they can make smaller bombs that instantly destroy entire Tyranid fleets.

    Borg nanoprobes is capable of punching through any known type of Federation shielding or armor. That includes tritanium.

    I'm saying the UFP would slaughter them. Both from orbit and behind shields, phaser banks, and heavily armed bombers.


    Okay, and just what about four million joules being energy based rather than kinetic is going to save a Space Marine from going pop?

    Since when?:bugeye:

    A frag grenade will at most, take your hand off. A phaser will disintegrate you. An energy weapon that pours 4 megajoules into your body alone will fry your ass. Or did you forget that 40k plasma weapons are below 4 megajoules and are still effective weapons?

    If you recall, bolters are capable of penetrating Space Marine armor, though it does tend to be a little resistant to it. But we're talking a massive gap in output. The bolters KE is in the tens of thousands of joules. A phaser has a yield of up to around four million joules.


    I've noticed.

    What about them? The Tau can't launch any sort of massive invasion, the Eldar are decaying powers, the necrons can only move through the webway and are Borg lite, chaos is of little consequence here, and so forth and so on.


    No they aren't what? Their bolter rounds are simply not that powerful in terms of explosives. We've seen cutscenes showing this.


    When? Name it.

    That doesn't make them smart.

    Where is your evidence for this?

    Yeah, that has to do with putting actors in front of a camera on a TV show. Nor does your statement suggest some sort of super intelligence behind the Tyranids.

    Funny, that's not the way it worked for more than one fleet in 40k. Nor would it really come to that, the UFP can shield their planets. Even colony planets have shields that can protect entire settlements. And even if the UFP has to evacuate and abandon the planet, they can destroy all trace of the tyranids on the planet with a Genesis device.
     
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  5. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    The federation would never use a genesis device, its what makes them better then the 40k world.

    Hellblade, as a military power 40k is better in my opinion. But as a civilization Star Trek is the best hands down. Other science fiction civilizations tend towards the worst parts of humanity, violence, destruction, and lack of imagination. Star trek caters to the best, boundless innovation, diplomacy, peace, and loyalty (sometimes as far as loyalty goes).

    So don't think for a second that I don't like Trek.
     
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  7. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

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    I'm pretty sure that's not true.

    Nanoprobes survive in phases fires by capital ship weaponry, which fires in the petajoule range. They've also been detonated with photon torpedoes before.

    Tritanium is 21 times stronger than diamonds. When Chief O'Brian's tritanium tool had been stolen, it was discovered in a plasma conduit. A terrorist had made it look like an accident by shoving the body of a dead officer in there with the tool and turning the conduit on, vaporizing the body and only melting the tritanium.

    That's far more energy than Space Marine armor can withstand. Borg nanoprobes can punch through that.


    Based on what? Their ships are faster, more agile, and have better weaponry. They can even fight at warp speed where as the Nids are forced to manuver at sublight speeds.


    Sure they could. They could even use superweapons to blow apart large sections of their fleet. We've seen similar methods used n the Immunity Syndrome, where Kirk faced off against a giant space amoeba that drained energy and threatened the entire Federation. He killed it with a massive matter-antimatter bomb.

    A frag grenade will at most, take your hand off. A phaser will disintegrate you. An energy weapon that pours 4 megajoules into your body alone will fry your ass. Or did you forget that 40k plasma weapons are below 4 megajoules and are still effective weapons?

    And yet your argument in response to it is "No, that's dumb. Trust me because...because I say so."

    How about you stop insulting my intelligence and explain yourself. Yes, there is a difference in how a bullet and an energy weapon work. That is not a free ticket to start ignoring that energy weapon whenever it pleases you.

    The Tau have an immensely small empire that holds less territory than even the UFP. Their ships can move between 10c to 60c and they can only make short trips, not the months long trips the Imperium can make. The Eldar are a dying race and a war with Star Trek is just going to hasten that.

    No. It's fact. Especially after Workshop's massive retcon of the entire race. Now they're cyber tomb kings in space. Worse still, they have to rely on the webway for transportation and only certain sections of it--otherwise they're stuck using ships that would take decades to centuries to get anywhere.

    The Necrons do wield pretty impressive weapons, I'll grant you that. And they're more durable than Borg drones in terms of regeneration. They also have understanding of powerful arcane secrets. Of all the species in 40k, they'd interest the Borg the most.

    But the fact of the fact of the matter is that the Borg will beam them weaponless into an assimilation chamber, strap them down, and assimilate them.

    Not that you'd want to play that game with me, but just where are you getting this statement from?

    Naming off planets is not an indication of them being smart. Nor are genestealer cults, as they're not part of the hive mind.


    No it doesn't. It's the same as calling someone smart because they don't have to turn the knob of a door to get in. All they have to do is push. Being able to zerg rush enemies does not make you a super intelligent hive mind.


    I was talking about the bit of this all happening because some tyranids acting intelligently.

    You. Are. Not. Telling. Me. Anything. About. Intelligence.

    Lol, what?

    Have you ever watched Star Trek before? Captain Picard seriously considered using a genocidal weapon to destroy the Borg before. Captain Kirk gave General Order Twenty-Four; the order to destroy all intelligent life on a planet. He also used a bomb that ripped off half the atmosphere off a planet that clearly contained wildlife. He also used genocidal means of killing an entire species of hostile parasite aliens that had taken over a Federation colony and would have killed the colonists if there were no other way of killing the creatures.

    And of course, Captain Sisko bombed a Maquis planet with a deadly toxin in order to force a Maquis leader to surrender to him. And he would have bombed every Maquis planet in the DMZ if he had to. Starfleet's Section 31 also infected the Founders with a terrible disease and even after Starfleet proper learned of the plot and had a cure, they wouldn't give it to them.

    Your opinion of Trek--positive or otherwise, has no bearing on your argument. Nor does my opinion of Warhammer 40k have any bearing either.

    What does have bearing is the fact that the UFP have side arms that that rival 40k lasercannons, they deploy energy shields around large areas, they have rifle-size weapons that fire a ton worth of energy in each shot, they have better sensors, better transportation, and they use modern tactics where as the Imperium uses a mixture of WWI and WWII tactics. Their weapons are archaic and poorly designed and lack heavy firepower--save for the larger titans, who are 30-50 meters high and can toss around ton to at best kiloton firepower. The UFP however, has photon torpedoes that act in the 50 megaton range that is about the size of a coffin.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2012
  8. cadas Registered Senior Member

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    8
    ok this is why not to count star wars out 1 tibanna gas:Tibanna gas produced four times its normal energy output when cohesive light passed through it. Thus, when spin-sealed (compacted at the atomic level), tibanna was used as a conducting agent in blasters and other energy weapons, producing greater energy yields and thus greater amounts of damage. Most personal weapons could not tolerate this power boost, but ship-mounted blasters benefited greatly from the use of tibanna gas. number 2 : how many star destroyers alone did the empire had? : if i remember right from books (yes i said books) they had upward of 10,000 sd's and thats NOT including fighters ,corvettes, and other ships of the line and what if other factions in the star wars universe joins in..well this could get very very messy.....also i have read star trek and own several seasons and in major conflicts in books (i said it again) the max amount ive seen is 100-200 and the sizes alone of the ships is...well...small the intrepid could only hold about 200 only a few could hold a 1000 while star wars could hold close to well over 5 thousand and remember there are SEVERAL super star destroyers not just one and the yong could be the major game changer aswell and oh yes theres a sith that can do the jump to light speed with just the force soo all you questions are invalid ty
     
  9. Kittamaru Suppose it makes sense. Wearing a bit thin. Valued Senior Member

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    I reckon if they could survive the initial onslaught, the Feds COULD beat back the Tyranids... mainly through incredibly advanced science... they would find some way to, essentially, poison them using their own hive mind...
     
  10. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

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    Wrong thread dude. This is Star Trek vs Warhammer 40k, not Star Trek vs Star Wars.
     
  11. Chipz Banned Banned

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    Borg plural is pronounced "Swedish".
     
  12. Grell Registered Member

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    I've been lurking for a little while, mostly reading the other forums if I'm honest. please forgive me if I've jumped into the middle of something I shouldn't have!

    As far as I know, the Empire in warhammer is bigger than any single ST Civ, its got more than a million worlds as rough guess by the Priesthood, and its been fighting wars against pretty brutal bad guys for a long time.

    If it decided to divert serious resources to invading the alpha quadrant, like a major crusade, it could really destroy the classic trek civilisations with a combination of firepower and force of numbers.

    Big ork invasions would be less considered, but would rampage through the trek galaxy willy nilly, whereas the Tyranids invade on a scale that makes a borg invasion look pretty small.

    Tyranid ships don't use shields. They use ablative screens of spores generated by their ships, armour and regeneration capabilities. Active defences like energy arcs as point defence and huge sails to absorb particle beams also are used.

    tyranids don't need to catch enemy ships much. Mostly enemy ships have to come to them to stop their worlds from being eaten. Also I don't believe Star trek ships can shoot at a sublight speed ship when they are at warp. That happened a lot in Shatner Trek, like when M5 went crazy, but it doesn't happen in Picards trek!

    Only some of the Necrons are only limited with the webway which isn't a bad limitation since its a galaxy wide really fast transportation network which can be extended to open temporary gates. The Word Bearer book and Hellforged have necron lords who have ships and fleets with space folding drives instead of having to use the webway as well. The tombworlds in codex spacemarine is a planet warship and we know that it ravaged a sector and that the webway cant take planet sized craftworlds so they must also have their own drives.

    As the codex says the Ctan gifted the necrons witha lot of technology and it was only at the end of the war that they got the webway. before it was torchships and whatever space folding tech they gave the Necrons nobility

    beaming necrons weaponless into their assimilation chambers would be difficult as necrons are recalled or phased out when damaged, as the necrons wish to keep their tech secret. Necrons have their own nano-tech and resists and actively assimilates or destroys things which attack them.

    also their weapons are integrated, so removing them would be difficult and they could even follow the "stolen" necrons onto the borg ship and begin to consume or destroy it.

    this gentleman will be talking about examples of Tyranids not just charging at things in wave attacks.

    the invasion of maccrage or hive fleet behemoth was the most straightforward Tyranid invasion but the tyranids still often hid and ambushed space marines when pretending to be dead. The Swarmlord "employed strategies of encirclement and misdirection" when fighting on the ground at Maccrage, and "matched every strategy" turn for turn.

    The parasite of Mortrex was a creature that implanted ripper seeds into victims. These could burst out immediately but many were left dormant until victims had left combat and returned to base. Genestealer cults form part of their own telepathic gestalt until the Tyranids take them back under control. it is okay to say they represent tyranid strategies beyond massive wave attacks because they are sent out by the Tyranids to infiltrate and cause disruption, even if they aren't directly under control all the time.

    Simply by virtue of existing the Genestealers show that the Tyranids are devious beyond simply brute attacks. In the same vein, Death Leapers and Lictors are used to psychologically destroy vital leaders rather than just killing them, to maximise the damage to morale. Tyranids even try to assassinate Inquisitor Kryptman with a mutating tyranid assassin-beast secretly dispatched to his home base.

    however you assess this, it is incorrect to imply that all tyranids do is brute force and zerg rush.

    I dont think that TNG or DS9 era Star Trek has shields that wrap around entire planets for the UFP. The Imperium has shields for hive cities and installations and these do not save you from Tyranids. Does the UFP have access to genesis devices, or a genesis device design that doesn't blow the planet up?

    The Tau nibble, they dont take big chunks and work like the dominion. The eldar are a dying race which is still amongst the most powerful in 40k, so it is not right to simply dismiss them. Necrons are not as limited as you think, and if they are borg lite then I would hope to see mobile planets in the borg arsenal that I have missed on the show! Orks outnumber everyone else combined and would thne obviously outnumber most trek contributions. Chaos is powerful and deadly, not just for guns but because of its insidious nature.
     
  13. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

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    No, it's a free for all.

    Probably not entirely true, but close enough for the main civilizations.

    I seriously doubt that. First off, even the far more aggressive Tau have not gotten a massive crusade that has ended with them being crushed like a bug, despite the fact that they're much, much smaller than the Federation was even two centuries ago.

    ...How do you figure?

    ...The Borg invasion was small. Thus far, they've sent one ship twice, then two cubes and a sphere. And that last time was to capture Voyager's unique technology.

    That's going to come back to bite them hard. Those screen spores are not going to be much trouble for a properly modified photon torpedo, which have been seen, with some guidance modification, capable of penetrating into stars.

    That's true, but the Tyranids do follow real space, therefore they can be targeted long before they actually reach a real world. And unlike Warhammer, a planet's sensor array could be modified to catch any warning signs of falling tyranid spores long before it reaches the planet.



    Correct, but they can easily re-position themselves and make use of warp jumps for tactical advantages. Add that in to Starfleet's greater combat range, better defended border, and their more aggressive technology, they could easily destroy a tyranid fleet given enough time. Especially if their Klingon allies lend them some of those plasma bombs--the ones that destroy all organic matter on a planet within seconds.


    Except that can't be true, as the Necron ships are torch ships without the webway. This is simply a canonical error.

    Or maybe it's just a torch ship. Even if it isn't, it's a singular special ship.

    Incorrect. The Necrons rely entirely on the Webway for FTL. This is stated specifically by the current Necron Codex. Without the Webway, they're limited to slow moving torch ships. There is literally no way for them to leave in a timely fashion without the webway.

    Through some sort of teleportation technology, I'm sure. And that's something the Borg can quickly learn to block.

    The Borg are rather insistent.

    Their nanotechnology is far inferior to their Borg counterparts. As we saw in Enterprise and Voyager, Borg nanoprobes can quickly reconfigure and even produce their own hardware in minutes, sometimes even seconds. Even lone nanoprobes are designed to immediately take advantage of existing alien technology to assimilate and produce Borg drones.

    That can be solved with a energy dampening field.

    Except a Tyranid fleet's primary method of attack is wave strikes. They may mix it up with some clever tactics in their own right, but this often combined with wave after wave of tyranids. This isn't going to end like Warriors of Ultramar.

    There isn't going to be tens of thousands of tyranids bum rushing a Federation city. This is how a land invasion, assuming the tyranids make it that far, is going to go down:

    Starfleet will target gatherings of the alien life forms with phasers and long-range photon torpedoes (well, long range based torpedoes, short for ship torpedoes). This will eradicate any large swell of tyranids well before they become a problem.

    Even assuming the Tyranids are able to gather enough forces and charge at a city before planet control can blast them into oblivion, a defended city will use nuclear grade artillery to blast them into pieces. Even the mortar launcher in TOS's Arena has a yield of at least 5.5 tons and can easily be scaled up to 40 tons. Said launcher and its small case of grenades were small enough for a single infantryman to carry one. Hell, he could probably carry two without much trouble.

    Even if some of the Tyranids get within closer range, phaser banks set up along the perimeter of the city will mow them down with brutal efficiency and even if they manage to reach the perimeter, they run into the shield protecting it. Of which, you're going to need nuclear grade weaponry to get through it.


    Actually no, the invasion seen in Warriors of Ultramar were. Very little form of tactics displayed other than "swarm, adapt, and terrorizing among the citizens".

    Good luck trying that with Starfleet sensors. Even their hand held tricorders can reach out to ranges of multiple KMs when scanning for specific lifeforms.

    It's a pity that the Imperium of Man hasn't learned proper contamination procedure. Well, I hope those ripper seeds bind to other life forms at the molecular level, because otherwise, that's not going to work. At all.

    Genestealer cult leaders actively flee the Tyranid hive fleet. Those that don't I think, aren't accepted back.

    True, but that's an evolved trait, not a display of high intelligence.

    And yet they still use the same zerg rush tactics. I mean, it works. That's fine. But that's their main offensive tool. You can't get around that. Sure they do other things and that is important, but the moment your horde of monsters show up in phaser range, they're going to learn about something called "wide beam".

    They do zerg rush. Even when they employ more subtle methods, they still zerg rush. That's their main offensive tool.

    ...Based on what? Even if we assume they're just connecting continent shields, what does that matter?

    Since when? I don't think I've ever seen cities and installations other than space assets show void shields. The only thing I recall seeing them on are titans, who are monstrously huge. And even they can only take a few tons of explosives before they go down.


    Yes? Shocking as it may be, but an unqualified primitive from several centuries in the past using it to try and kill his foe is not exactly the sort of guy you want to test your device.

    The technology was showcased again in Deep Space Nine. In that episode, Starfleet re-ignited a dead star. The terraformer in charge of the project was also a stated genius and artist who had also worked on numerous planets using that same technology.

    ...Okay?

    There's like five or six basic powers. And they fall below the Tyranids and the Imperium for sure, and likely even the Necrons in terms of long-term threats.

    Unfortunately, they very much are. Even if they have a moving planet with FTL, the rest of their ships are not. This has been addressed in the 5th edition Codex. At best, you might have one or two lucky Necron Lords with FTL ships.

    Um, no they don't? Their territory is much, much smaller than the Imperiums. Even if they have a vastly higher greater population density (I really don't see how given hive worlds), there is simply no way they'd be a major threat unless they all combined forces, which is simply not going to happen.


    The Q do not appreciate dangerous and out of control gods running around in their universe. Their response to even their own acting out ranges from turning them into single celled organism to outright execution.
     
  14. Grellish Registered Member

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    you must forgive me i have not been back for a while and had to make a new account as i dont remember the old one login
    What do you mean?

    The tyranids are responsible for the withdrawal of the damocles crusade. How do you know they are smaller than the federation?

    They are big fleets of millions and billions of orks with strong fleets. If 2000 ork ships had attacked earth instead of a borg cube it would have been orkified by now!


    That is why i said they invade with smaller fleet than the tyranids

    Are you saying that torpeods will just force through exploding spore screens and ignore psychic energy strikes?

    Tyranids follow real space from the outskirts of star systems. They use wapr travel or compressed space corridors up until then. I dont know which example of ST sensros you are using as na example for the planet sensor array to show that this could happen

    if tyranid spores are falling on a planet the most likely warning sign is the fleet of tyranid ships or tectonic activity


    ST ships do not do as you describe from the ST I watched. They fight in big clumps or really close. So I dont know about greater combat range! How does the border make a difference since they can not stop the tyranids from flying past it/ sometimes they might not but I dont see it often.

    I dont know what agreesive technolgy means but anything could easily destroy a tyranid fleet if they have enough time so I don't know how that helps.

    If they do use these plamsa bombs do you know that they will work in space without an atmosphere to propogate through. Also tyranids are biological but they are really tough and use inorganic compounds for armour.
    The codex still describes the gifts of technology of the ctan and you cant say its a canonical error unless someone from gw agrees
    If it was a torch ship then it wouldnt have been able to ravage a sector. A sector is larger than a single system and can comproise hundreds of star systems. If it is a single ship then it is a single ship the size of a planet so its more than big enough to be dangerous! Necron ships and units also use interspatial corridors to quickly move things across the galaxy so the World Engine or any ships that had to use ftl could bring things with them

    also it is not a singular special ship. There is more than one world engine.

    I spoke about this before and they do have the webway?

    Or the necrons could quickly learn to penetrate their shielding. The necrons are renowned for their tech solutions

    The necrons are a bit deadlier.

    Necron nanotechnology aggressively destroys enemy tech that attacks it. Even magic daemon axes are destroyed. An entire necron lord can assemble himself from nano-scarabs, and their nano tech can repair their own hardware in minutes and seconds as well.

    What energy damping field has been used by the borg to do something like that? Also necron nano-tech will self destruct the necrons if required.

    Yes they use wave attacks. But as you agree they don't just do this. As you were talking about them being smart with the other fellow.

    It will not end like warriors of ultramar i dont think a federation away team would survive inside a tyranid ship

    If the federation cities dont have good enough defences and i doubt most federation cities have extensive defensive fortifications then the tyranids will drop on the city as well

    starfleet will be occupied by being outnumbered by hordes of tyranid spaceships

    when do star trek cities have nuclear grenade artillery as defences, is that from a novel?
    The same for the phaser banks and the nids can burrow really well, so they could bypass a shield if they have to do. But i dont think they do since federation cities dont have shields in general

    no. Warriors of ultramar is hive fleet leviathan and Behemoth is the most straight forward. In Warriors the tyranids infiltrated gargoyle brood mothers and use imperial tactics against them several times. "swarm adapt and terrorise" is actually a very good tactic as well. And you have missed the Lictor infiltrating and trying to kill Kryptman.

    You have to be able to do something about the movements of the enemy and know what is going on. You dont need to be invisible when encircling and misdirecting.

    it is an example of more than just wave tactics. Why would implanting trek people with parasites not work? Trek people are not all capable of ignoring parasites and surgically removing them or beaming them out would use resources and would only work on people not immediately killed or killed before they are cured if they can be.

    I dont know what you are talking about with the cult leaders fleeting the hive fleet since they rise up and fight and welcome the tyranids with open arms. Your comment about accepted back is confusing as the tyranids consume and recylce their own troops after each attack and tyranid monsters are reincarnated in new bodies

    This is a confusing statement. High intelligence is an evolved trait. Tyranids control their evolution. If they evolve the ability to perform a task, then they are deliberately planning for their creatures to perform in this fashion.

    I think you are misunderstanding me. I dont want to get around how tyranids use mass wave attacks because it is not the only thing they do, so why would I?. The horde of monsters will show up in phaser range after gassing, shooting and poisoning the people with the phasers. Or they will tunnel underneath them. Wide beam will not stop them being shot .

    This is the same thing you said above and it is still not making an argument i need to defend?

    Based on them not having any? You are saying that shields mean that nids will not win a war of attrition in reply to the other gentleman. I was pointing out your claims about shields dont seem right
    The hive city of verghast had an energy shield as did the other hive cities on the planet verghast.
    The fortress of the Silver skulls has a shield
    In Blood reaver the marines errant have a shielded fortress
    void shields are described in the planetstrike book as being used on many installations
    Even the orks can put up a power field around a city in Grey hunter
    the hive city in Blood Gorgons has interlocking multiple layers of void shields
    even a penal colony in last chancers has a void shield or a prison in What price victory.
    In eisenhorn the private residence of a rich noble has a spherical void shield and individual void shields are used to imprison psykers.

    The genesis device was using unstable protomatter nobody said it was because khan messed it up.

    Was that said to be genesis device?

    I am pointing out that the tau dont try to launch massive invasions as much as they be more careful

    however they are fighting a salient of a primary imperial crusade in the jericho reach and when they invaded Damocles sent starships to every planet in the sector.

    In one possible future the eldar deploy weapons of apocalyptic power and destroy the iom they hit above their weight and the eldar could destroy the federation.

    As I have said elsewhere, you are mistaken about the state of necrons. Also as i said before the necrons dont need to have more than one ship as a pathfinder due to their interstellar portal tech built into ships and units.

    And the moving planet isn't alone

    Orks are described as numbering more than humans. They also occupy a greater portion of the galaxy than the imperium which does not control or occupy everything in each region it claims.

    Ork waaaghs have numbers in the millions and billions, this would be a potent threat to any trek nation.
    The q did not stop Q when he was having all his own fun, and they did not stop they guy who killed the husnock

    When did the Q stop anyone who wasn't Q from being godlike ? Also, I am not talking about gods doing everything. You jumped to them without reason.
     
  15. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

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    Can't you just ask it to send you a new temporary password via your email account?



    That there may be larger societies in Trek...? I thought it was rather straight forward.



    And yet the Damocles Crusade didn't end after five days, did it?

    http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100706070328/warhammer40k/images/f/f0/Tauspace400.jpg

    From where I'm standing, it only looks like the Tau have a few systems. It sure as hell isn't 150 core worlds, a thousand (plus) colony worlds, and 8,000 light years of territory.



    Except that the Orks don't tend to gather in fleets that massive--not unless it's a really, really big Waaagh! Most invasions from what I've seen tend to involve only a few dozen ships. A Waagh of 2,000 ork ships would require time to build up. And Starfleet would probably hold a significant technological advantage over the orks.

    It wasn't a Borg invasion. That's what you're missing. It's more akin to probing. The Borg seemed to have some interest in testing certain cultures so they can find new means of adaption. We've been told that when the Borg do invade, their fleet numbers in the hundreds to thousands of ships--not one single ship.


    Depends on how powerful the explosion is. The shields on torpedoes pretty much render immune to enemy phasers throughout the franchise. If the yield of the explosion is powerful enough, then sure, it could cause the torpedo to detonate prematurely. The difference is that 40k spore screens stop torpedoes that aren't shielded and probably don't have all that thick armor. Or energy weapons that can be blocked by throwing physical matter in the way.


    Since when do they protect themselves with psychic energy?


    1) From what I recall, they use some sort of space folding thing. Whichever the case is, they are physically in space, not some parallel dimension.

    2) Star Trek ships can typically detect all life forms. The only exception was the Borg (at first), who were in all likelyhood blocking their scans or their cybernetic hardware confused the sensors.

    3) Star Trek ships can easily detect all life on a planet just by orbiting it, as per the Survivors:

    Now, this is just one ship. A planet is going to have multiple orbiting satellites, some ranging from from subspace transceivers to planetary sensors designed to observe the area around them. And Starfleet ships themselves can scan light years at a time searching for a single starship. While planetary bodies and so forth would indeed make immediate detection of a tyranid craft difficult, it probably be detected long before it entered a planet's atmosphere.

    Uh, no. Tyranids send scouts head of their main fleet to search for planets rich in food. When one is found, they lock onto system and immediately travel towards it. In some cases, Tyranid cults form on the planet and create psychic beacons that lure the fleet like a moth to a flame.

    ...It's called TV. American (and really most) sci-fi are shown at closer ranges because otherwise you wouldn't be able to see the ships fighting. They'd be little specs at even relatively close distances, absolutely invisible at the ranges that ships are actually capable of engaging at. That's not to say that they don't engage at closer ranges or never try to close the gap (shorter range = shorter reaction time), but they are very much capable of longer ranges.

    Biogenic weapons are illegal in Star Trek, at least in the Alpha-Beta Quadrant area. They literally have weapons that instantly destroy all organic matter in seconds on a planetary scale from the Klingons to the Romulans. Even Starfleet's Section 31 managed to whip up a virus that is so malicious that it infected a species that can literally shapeshift into liquid, solids, gases, plasma, and photons and was slowly killing them. Compared to the difficulty of infecting the Tyranids--which is that a virus that is based off the original genes of the fleet queen, is enough to ensure total destruction against that strain of Tyranid.

    There's no reason why they shouldn't. It's plasma. But I wasn't really thinking of that weapon. Starfleet, or rather, Voyager, developed a biometric warhead based on the Borg's nanoprobes. The species they used it against, called Species 8472 by the Borg, were so resistant to assimilation, that their cells instantly destroyed any sort of nanoprobes that attempted to assimilate them. Their ships were so powerful that even a Borg cube couldn't destroy one--in fact, it's implied that perhaps even a single bioship was able to destroy about a dozen Borg cubes without taking any significant damage.

    Voyager's modified Borg nanoprobes allowed the probes to penetrate the cells of the bioships long enough for them to detonate; the nanoprobes literally destroyed them on the cellular level. These nanoprobes? They were delivered through torpedoes with matter-antimatter warheads as well as ship phasers, which as far as DET is concerned, kicks up into the megawatt range, perhaps even the gigawatt.

    ...Since when? Last I checked, those armored bits are just really strong shells. Which is fine, but they're still organic.

    Which Codex? The latest codex pretty much rewrote a great deal of Necron back history and technological capability.

    What is the source?

    Sometimes.

    Necron ships can only move at interstellar distances through the webway, but only in certain parts of the webway and such connections are always small, since the Webway apparently actively resists them.


    Assuming they can monitor the Borg's shield frequency...sure? But it's not like that'd do them a world of good. As soon as they try it, the Borg can adapt by creating a scattering field to block any sort of transporter in or out (I would actually like you to quantify this ability of theirs).


    Not really, no. Perhaps in their peak time, yes, but the grandest technological feat they have belongs to a small cult that has a device that can destroy any star they choose--but are too afraid to use it because of how delicate it is and how much work it would require to maintain or restore balance if it were used.


    Source?

    Some Borg drones used it to foil Harry Kim's phaser and effectively neutralize the bombs he was planting throughout the ship.

    Except they sort of do. Yes, they also try sneaking into the city, or having a few tyranid breeds stir up trouble within the city, and occasionally they pulled a quick one on their enemies by taking advantage of terrain that the enemy didn't consider--but throughout it all, their main form of attack was brutally beating on the front door with wave after wave after wave.

    The full run the Space Marines ran through? No. Beaming into the main chamber with four times as many guys from a cloaked ship, stunning/killing/vaporizing all enemy targets, and dealing with the Queen in record time? Yeah, they could do that.


    Except even a minor colony on the edge of Klingon-Federation space had a shield protecting a small colony on the planet even after the Klingons took orbit and began to conquer specific colonies on the planet. At best said colony was a town or a small city.

    How do you figure? It takes Tyranid fleets ays to move from the outer point of the system to the inner point, again, something we saw in Warriors of Ultramar. Starfleet, if it really needs to, has been known to cross the distance between Earth and Jupiter in half an hour at high impulse speeds. At their more typical velocities, they can still cross a system in hours.

    It's from The Original Series. Kirk uses a mortar launcher to fire at some Gorns about a kilometer or so away. They all duck and cover and shortly after the explosion, a light breeze washes over them.

    A Phaser II--that little hand phaser? According to the TM, it has a DET output of .01 MWs at its highest setting. Thanks to NDF, that's enough to blow up 3,900 metric tons of rock. To give you a hint; most small navy ships weigh in at 4,000 metric tons. And that's just the hand phaser. Imagine if they doubled that energy output. Imagine if they raised it to .1 MWs rather than just .01MWs.

    1) Star Trek sensors can read the temperature of a planet's core. Finding the Tyranids isn't going to be hard.

    2) They can beam them back out.

    3) Failing #2, they can beam bombs in.


    Deep Space Nine disagrees.

    And that's still remarkably primitive compared to what would happen in a Trek engagement. That army wouldn't even reach the edge of the force field thanks to multiple torpedo launchers, mortar launchers, and small phaser banks. The army would literally be reduced to a smoldering ruin.

    Yeah, but being able to hide your units is rather helpful in accomplishing that. If this were a Starfleet colony, there wouldn't be an issue of whether or not one wing of Tyranids might flank your or join up with another. You can nuke both of them from halfway across the planet.

    Because transporters can filter out anything that doesn't bind to a life form on a molecular level. And even then, they still have options.


    1) Transporters in the 24th century are so common that cadets can beam home for supper and back again. Even starships have multiple transporters ranging from units designed to move large cargo bulk to beaming people down. Later they even began learning to beam hundreds of people in the span of minutes. Hell, by Star Trek Nemesis, they have one-off transporter prototype devices that is smaller than most pins.

    2) If the person is dead, they can still vaporize the body to prevent it from being used by the Tyranids.


    Again, from what I've gathered, it depends on the cult leaders. Some of them leave the planet before the Tyranids arrive and others are simply not assimilated back into the tyranid bio-pool for whatever reason. Probably either because they're considered impure, diseased, or simply so they can go out and find more planets to draw the hive-fleet too.

    Apologies; what I am saying is that although there are certain breeds of Tyranids that do indeed show intelligence, maybe even a sense of individuality, these are rare and subservient to the instinctual nature of the Tyranids. Commanders for example, show cunning, not true intelligence. The fact that they can see things on a much grander scheme is also useful, like a dog looking down on ants and seeing what they're doing and responding to it. However, it is doubtful that the Tyranid Hive Mind will ever act with the same sort of intelligence that is more common with humanoid species.

    ...Because anyone with any concept of modern tactics would never, ever do anything the Tyranids do?

    ...How? Again, they're behind a shielded wall and their weapons can fire out while the Tyranids cannot fire in. Phaser banks will blast large chunks of the swarm into chunky salsa, close range phaser banks will vaporize scores of them, and a single tactical nuke could destroy an entire army of them. And that's before they somehow find a way to try and penetrate the colony's shields.

    Which will easily be detected by local sensors thanks to the geological instability it will cause. They then just beam the tyranids out or simply drop bombs in. Even if this works once or twice, once the secret is out that the Tyranids will use this method, Starfleet will simply start watching for the tactic.


    That's what the shield is for.

    And what is your counter argument? A Starfleet science outpost had a small shield around it and some ruins in TNG's Gambit. DS9's Nor The Battle To The Strong had a shield over a single settlement on a border colony with shields that held off the Klingons for a few days despite constant attacks. Kirk didn't find it unreasonable to expect that a planetoid with a large, glorified library colony would have a shield to protect it. At least two penal colonies in TOS also had shields, one of which encompassed the entire planet. Your limp response of "this doesn't seem right" doesn't hold out in weight of actual evidence.

    A pity that technology doesn't seem to be around when the Tyranis come to play. Or during most planetary invasions. You know, like 80% of them? Like when Orks invade? Or Necrons? Or Tyranids? Or Chaos? These seems to be more along the lines of exceptions or important places having shields. They don't appear to be available to the two planets we saw in Warriors of Ultramar. Were they even in play during the invasion of Ultramar itself?

    Yeah, one science officer said this. And yet despite her objections in regards to the actual make-up of the device, it was shown to have solid results when used properly in the first cave-test that we saw back in Wrath of Khan. Where as the Genesis planet was created in a nebula after some madman with a death wish detonated it like a bomb. Let's see, how was that device supposed to be used again? Oh, that's right. It was supposed to be released on a planet and reshape the planet's surface, not make an entirely new planet out of a nebula.


    Writers specifically stated that he had continued in the steps of the Genesis project. All of his projects were based on building on teraforming and he used protomatter (key ingredient remember) to reignite the star.

    How did they destroy the IoM? Destroying the Emperor's Golden Throne would effectively doom the IoM as a single entity.


    Are you saying they can teleport their ships across space or simply soldiers and units?

    And the quote for this would be...?


    The difference is that Starfleet can come up with a means of destroying their entire race and their entire means of reporduction to the point where the orks are no longer a threat. The Imperium is rather brute force in how it tends to respond to problems.


    Except when they did in Deja Q. They were so upset with him that they stripped him of his powers and told him to choose a mortal form to live out the rest of his meager existence as. He was effectively given a death sentence, given how immortal a Q is.

    So what? What makes you think they cared? Q put humanity on trial for their past sins and apparently the Husnock were vicious and aggressive even as an interstellar species. That one god-like being killed off their entire race in a fit of rage and bitterly regrets it means what?

    True Q. Q specifically says that they were going to judge a young woman who was both Human and Q to determine if she was Q enough to become part of the Continuum. If she was--then she got to join. If she wasn't, they'd execute her because she was too dangerous to leave alone. In order to remain as a human and lead a human life, she would have to of lived without using her powers. It was the same thing her parents agreed to, failed, and were later executed by the Q for breaking their promise (we don't know what they did).

    It seems to me that they take it pretty seriously. Simply because they do not stop all god-like beings from acting does not mean that they have shirked their responsibility. Given what Chaos is and how it acts, the Q are not going to want Chaos stepping into their universe at all.
     
  16. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,706
    Hey guys, long ass time no see. Anyhow I figured I'd pop in and make a quick point or two.

    1.) Ceramite (A major component in the armor of space marines) is described as being an extremely poor conductor of heat. It is a fair assumption that phasers work on the basis of heating matter up, and its simple fact that plasma based weaponry does the same. In essence, what I am saying is that ceramite, and ergo BASIC space marine armor (terminators have adamantium as well) is uniquely well suited for combating Star Trek weaponry. It is actually the most ideal of circumstances because the inherent weakness of the weapon corresponds to the inherent strength of the armor. Ironically, ceramite, if you make the assumption that it is a derivative of ceramic and not say aerogel, then that makes it far less ideal for kinetic weaponry such as bolters.

    2.) Star trek proponents always bring up that they can kill nid ships before the ships get in close enough to do any real damage to the planet. And I gotta say, it is a damn good argument, the only way such a strategy could work for the nids is to surround the entire planet with ships and attempt to blockade, but since warp (the ST version) does not go through real space that would be pointless so the nids couldnt even exhaust the fed armaments because theyd resupply from other systems.

    3.) This is a continuation of the nids but it different. The reason why the nids would have a chance at winning is because of genestealers somehow making planetfall. Which wouldn't be that hard, the stealers make their stealthy entry to the galaxy long before the nids themselves. The federation makes the same wrong assumption the imperium did at ymgarl and assume the genestealers to be a major predatory species of a single planet rather then realize that they are shock troops from a massive organism. How many federation science vessels go directly from major discoveries to the core federation planets to present their findings on a regular basis? A whole lot of them. This is the one area where the federation's incredibly fast warp travel damages them, the stealers needed centuries (possibly longer) to make landfall onto more core planets and there is no telling if they ever even made it to Terra. From the point at which an archaeological team comes across a world which has genestealers to the point at which their spacecraft returns to Earth I doubt even a year has passed. And lets be honest, to a war ridden society like the Imperium a genestealer cult could sprout planetwide rebellion, G-d knows what they could do to the comparatively peaceful Earth. I think it a reasonable assumption that the genestealers can do enough damage to makeup for the travel time of the fleet.
     
  17. Kittamaru Suppose it makes sense. Wearing a bit thin. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,936
    Well, phasers are... strange...

    As for the genestealers, I dunno - depends on how well federation detection methods can pick up the intruders

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  18. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    ...So? Orange flamethrowers are used to great effect in 40k. We even saw one of the Marines in the Ultramarine movies using them, not to mention the various games and picture art.

    Yes and no. Lower settings, those below level 8, work on EM and thermal impact doing their damage. Settings higher than the typical kill setting of 6 or 7 brings the NDF threshold into play and you watch as 50% of affected matter (ie, the size of a humanoid) is transitioned out of the continuum. In effect, phasers set off a chain reaction.


    Isn't plasma-based weaponry pretty damn effective in 40k?

    And yet, we again, see that flamers do pretty damn well against them:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNQkMVVdekg

    Time Index ~0:55

    And of course, they even arm their Dreadnoughts with such things:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTjyO_FncE4

    Time Index: ~1:35

    All appear to vary between deep orange and yellow, even white.

    Also, keep this in mind:

    Data tends to use metric, so that would mean 2,314 Celsius. Fire in the orange or even yellow area is going to have a range of about 2,000 to 3,000 kelvin. That's 2726.85 Celsius at the highest temperature we've seen their flamethrowers go to. With three phasers, it took about two seconds to send up a thick cloud of white smoke for the group to use to prepare an ambush.

    In TOS, Kirk estimated that a rock that his phaser couldn't cut through:

    Kirk estimates that it must have a high melting point of eight thousand degrees centigrade, suggesting that his phaser can come close, but not enough to reach that point. This reinforces the idea of ~2,000+ celsius. Also should be noted that Kirk's era phasers could only reach to level 8, not up to 16 like TNG ones.

    At level 16, a phaser will cause 3,900 metric tons of rock to explode. Somehow, I don't think a Space Marine Chapter is going to survive long against soldiers whose weapons can do that.

    Um...this is going to be rather difficult. Colonies tend to monitor things that approach them and they prefer to deflect asteroids that won't burn up in atmosphere or outright destroy them for safety reasons. It's possible that it might somehow get aboard via a traveling ship, but even so, once genestealers are discovered to exist, Starfleet will know what to look for and they'll know how to find them.

    This is a rather glaring assumption I think. Even if Starfleet doesn't initially understand the intent behind the genestealers, they're going to eradicate them as quickly and efficiently as possible. Which is pretty damn efficient given Starfleet technological sophistication.

    Not many. But they regularly keep in contact with Starfleet Command. Any major scientific discovery is probably going to require immediate reports to Starfleet Command and the ship probably sends out weekly reports, not to mention subspace traffic from the people who live there to love ones and friends. A ship that goes missing is going to immediately draw Starfleet's attention.

    ???

    Since when?


    Starfleet warp drive, even for more modern ships on their maximum cruising speed, is suggested to have an effective travel speed of 1,000c (it's actually 1,649c, but for long distance travel, there's probably inefficiencies). The Imperium covers that same distance in 1 month to 6 months, suggesting that their FTL ranges from 2,000c to 12,000c.


    Um...what? Being war-ridden can actually make a society easier to planetwide rebellion because times are so hard and rough. There are things for people to get angry at, securities that can be taken advantage of. In a society where people are so happy that they no longer care all that much about monetary wealth, but rather on being a better person, is not going to be a very fertile ground for a Genestealer cult. The best the cult can do is work of fanatical people, who'll be quickly looked down upon by the rest of society and as soon as Starfleet gets involved, they're going to find that genestealer cult and they're going to take action. Because they're going to see that rebellion as an attack from some sort of greater entity (be it a government or space creature).

    And God help the Tyranids when Section 31 gets involved.

    If they can produce a lethal virus against shapeshifters that can take the form of all the basic forms of matter...God knows what they'll be able to do to the Tyranids.
     
  19. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,706
    If I were the feds I'd be more scared of the necrons then anyone else though. Their strength is in fighting battles on their terms, the Federations strength is undoubtedly in their space fleets, lets face it. On an individual basis, the quality of a space marine soldier is so much higher then that of a federation soldier. Necrons do not have to fight in space if they don't want to.
     
  20. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    Um, no. Sorry, but where is it at all shown that their armor is super effective against heat, so much so that a flamethrower can't harm them?

    What weak points? The entire body is covered. The most exposure a Space Marine shows is the joints in his armor, which is possible, but even so, this would protect them at most from setting 7. What's going to protect them from setting 8? Riker tests a Phaser I in a TNG episode on a nearby rock and it blows it apart rather handily. Assuming that's level 8 and that's how it responds to denser materials, that's still more than enough to blow a hole clean into a Space Marine's armor. It's more firepower than we often see from their bolters.

    ...Charging head-on into battle isn't exactly unheard off for Space Marines you know. It might also have been a tactical decision. If they were cut off (and it appears they had been), the loss of their tank, which was probably holding the orks off, more than likely forced them to abandon their current shelter before the orks could muster enough reinforcements to take their little building there. We saw that even the Dreadnought wasn't unstoppable.

    ...That's because he only hit one guy. How can you say it wasn't an effective weapon when we only saw him attack one of the marines? I mean, if he had sprayed like four marines and only one of them died while the other three blew him into salsa chunks, you'd have a point...but as it is...no, sorry. That doesn't work.

    The Dreadnought is a fairly heavy unit compared to an ork with a flamer. And simply because something is better does not mean that the weapon is tactically unsound.

    Oh sweet Jesus, not the dumb as fuck Ork psychic wankery.

    First off, we saw the flamers used by the Dreadnought in the second video produce a flamer of similar intensity. Second, we see a flamer of similar intensity in the Ultramarines movie. Third, we also see flamers used by the Space Marines in game with the same rough intensity as the orks in the opening cutscene. So yeah, the idea that this is ork magic isn't going to fly here.

    No flamethrower is good as any sort of main weapon choice. That's just...basic tactics. They simply don't have the sort of range that you need to be effective against people with guns. That isn't the point; the point is that a flamer is capable of harming a Space Marine. That indicates that their armor probably maxes out at around that point. Even if it doesn't, I'm pretty sure they don't laugh off missiles.

    Hmm, perhaps Kennedy made some sort of mathematical error when he did the conversion. The TM states: "Heavy geological displacement <650 m(3) rock/ore of 6.0 g/cm(3). In any case, I'm not sure where you're getting that this is anywhere close to that of a mountain. 3,900 metric tons of say, solid limestone will come out to around 1,494 cubic meters. Now, using 11.4 meters and converting it to cubic meters, I got about 1481.544 cubic meters and 11.5 meters got us 1,520.875 cubic meters, so the figure is somewhere between 11.4 meters and 11.5 meters. In any case, the height of the average human is about 1.86 meters. In other words, the whole this phaser would make would be roughly six times as high as a human. That's high, I grant you, but that's hardly going to be destroying mountains anytime soon.

    Now, assuming that Kennedy made some sort of error, I'll use solid limestone again, assuming that this is roughly what the TM was talking about when it gave the measurement. 650 cubic meters is 1,697 tons of rock and working from 8.7 meters in height, depth, and length to get cubic meters, that would give us 658.503 cubic meters, which is a bit high, but 8.6 meters is on the lower end, where as 8.7 is pretty close to the mark. That gives us a hole that's 4.67x larger than that of a human, which is fairly accurate to the sort of holes that we see phaser set to higher settings produce (of course, in the show, phasers don't produce explosions, they just magically disintegrate the material...but if we went by that, this would actually be even worse since even though only about a fourth that size is being produced, all the energy is going into the target, not away from it).

    In any case, a Space Marine is not going to survive a phaser set to level 16, no matter which way you cut it.

    Why? The Imperial encounters strange alien beings like them all the time and they were mostly found on old space hulks.

    Um...Imperial Sensors don't really strike me as all that sophisticated compared to Starfleet sensors. Starfleet sensors can literally observe the temperature of stars, of planetary cores, and so forth. Imperial cruisers seem to have trouble when an opponent is too close to the star, which can cause a blinding effect for their sensors.

    Um...what? First off, while it's true that their technology is more advanced than modern day, modern day observatories can't effortlessly scan the space around Earth. They really have to rely on infrared and plain old eyes (with telescopes) to spot many of the things they need. They can also pick up radiation and things like that, but compared to even Imperial sensors, which can probably pick up most things within fairly close range, it's not all that impressive.

    But Starfleet sensors can scan light years of space around them. They can pick of lifeform readings from fairly impressive distances away. Anything that approaches a planet with any sort of bioreading is going to be discovered as some sort of foreign object and probably taken in for study.

    Also, where's this assertion that genetic engineering is a common, daily thing? Genetic engineering is rare and typically only performed by the Space Marine chapters for introducing new members of their chapter. And these things are far from either safe or "mastered". In fact, Space Marine chapters reproduce their Space Marines by growing gene seeds from previous generations of Space Marines, both for the continuance of their chapter and to be sent to Mars so that new Space Marines chapters can be made. They can't even produce these gene seeds themselves--hell, they can't even fix any sort of deficiency that arises FROM the geneseed! Perfect genetic manipulation? Bullshit.

    And not only is their means to produce Space Marines both difficult and flawed, but the process itself is very dangerous and limited. Humans of a certain age and must be physically and mentally fit. Even after an applicant to become a Space Marine is proven to be both physically and mentally capable for augmentation, they still may not even survive the process of augmentation. It varies from chapter to chapter, but the very process of genetic manipulation can kill them. Even when it succeeds, certain organs may not develop properly or may function at all.


    ...That's a joke right? Iron halos are only available to the most important and influential of Imperium men and women. Even most Space Marines do not have an iron halo. Iron halos are typically only given to high rank Space Marines, nobles, Inquisitors (and even then, probably high ranked), and other such individuals. That isn't mastery. Personal shield mastery is more like what we see with the Borg; where such technology is slapped onto every single member of their species.

    I doubt even a Chapter Master with an iron halo could even survive a phaser set to level 16.


    ...Hurray for the Eldar?

    Again, bullshit. First off, in regards to exterminating other species, Captain Picard was willing to use a young Borg drone as a weapon to try and destroy the entirety of the Borg. There are trillions, trillions of drones in the Collective. When he later backed out because he didn't want to use that particular drone as a weapon (he thought it immoral), he was rebuked by his immediate superior. Then of course, in Deep Space Nine, Section 31 actually attempted to destroy the Founders by using Odo the virus that I spoke of earlier--they very literally were going to reduce the entirety of the Changeling race to a handful of survivors at best. Hell, in DS9's For the Uniform, when Eddington was having the Maquis using biogenic weapons specifically toxic to Cardassians only to drive the Cardassian Union out of the DMZ, Captain Sisko's response was to bomb a Maquis colony with a biogenic weapon toxic to humans and told Eddington that he would continue to do so until he surrendered himself and the biogenic materials he was using.

    And in regards to exterminating a planet with your own population? Captain Kirk faced a very similar situation in

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    pperation: Annihilate!".

    Nasty parasite eh? Oh yeah, there's more; these things are intelligent beings.


    Now, Kirk did refuse to give up, at least in front of his officers, but he was rather clear that he not only would have if no other choice presented itself, but his command duties required that he did so. And this was a colony with over a million people.

    Now, I agree that Starfleet will do what they can to try and study and come up with a means of destroying these cults safely, but if it comes to it, Starfleet will save those they can and burn the rest of the planet to the ground. If they must, they can even rig up rather destructive weapons on short notice or have them deployed from the appropriate weapons depo.

    1) No, not many ships go to Earth. There are a hundred and fifty core worlds within the Federation and by the 23rd century, the UFP had over a thousand colonies.

    2) Yes, ships will eventually return to spacedock or a station of some sort at some point.


    3) Oh yes, that's very much possible. But the chances of them taking an entire space station? Probably not going to happen. First off, ships have manifests. In other words, they're going to be rather curious when they detect only a handful of say, human life forms on a ship that's supposed to have say, maybe four times that number. And they're going to be really suspicious when they detect numerous life forms that they can't readily identify. Their response will very likely to believe that the ship has been captured by pirates or something. And once a station is alert to that sort of threat, there's very limited options left for the genestealers. Either they run and the starbase puts out a notice to the nearest Federation starship--or the genestealers attempt to board a fully armed and prepared station. Something similar will happen when they encounter a colony world.

    I
    So? Warhammer has this stuff too. I don't see why Starfleet having it is any worse. The fact that Starfleet has far better means of picking up life forms and can even identify known life forms means that genestealers will have a difficult time masking themselves when finding a prey. And even if they do manage an invasion of a colony or station, once Starfleet discovers the problem--and they will--they're going to be able to find those genestealers no problem because then they'd know their biological signatures and will be able to find them. And before you try and assert that genestealers are too similar for that to work, there's less genetic differences between Humans, Betazoids, Bajorans, and several other species and they can readily detect them. They can even pick out the difference between Vulcans and Romulans, though it appeared that some Vulcans and Romulans have learned to fool the sensors. But their species originated from the same planet and have maybe a few centuries of minor evolution between the two species.

    Finding genestealers isn't going to be all that hard. Especially given their biological differences are rather apparent in most of the generations.

    ...No they aren't. Not on the sort of scale you're suggesting. Genestealer cults tend to stir up riots and rebellions, which while possible on some colonies, is going to be rather difficult given that colonies aren't wanting for food or resources. The most trouble the UFP has had was with the Maquis worlds, which probably are ripe for cult infestations, but as soon as Starfleet gets wind of it, they're going to be there with an armada and they're going to burn every last world to ash.

    I'll agree that on the basis of physical speed, strength, endurance, and combat skill, Space Marines are far greater than your average Federation soldier. Unfortunately--that doesn't matter. Space Marines at best display modern combat tactics and it isn't unlike them to degrade into far more simple style charges, especially if it's a chapter that prefers melee combat to ranged combat (Blood Angels anyone?). In addition, Adeptus power armor is not capable of withstanding a phaser set to level 8. It's not capable of withstanding a phaser set to level 16. There are doubts in my mind that it could resist a phaser set to level 7 too. And those are by far the least nasty thing Starfleet has in terms of ground warfare. They also have mortar launchers that are low level tactical bombs--as in within the same punching range as a US MOAB and with a range of a few kilometers. They have tricorders that can track enemies for several kilometers around their positions. They have transporters that can beam them across a planet in seconds and with several high-traffic transporters, they can beam hundreds of such soldiers around the planet in minutes. They even have low-grade personal shielding that ranges from ones they can wear (but aren't that great apparently) to ones that cover small areas and even base camps. Their towns, cities, and military bases will be heavily shielded.

    In a ground engagement, Starfleet steamrolls any Space Marine chapter in existence. They might not even have to fire a single phaser at them. They could signal a fighter craft or even a military base with a low-grade photon torpedo tactical warhead and have them utterly destroyed from orbit or high altitude. And this is assuming that said marines made it to the ground in the first place; planetary defenses could easily pick off each and every one of those drop pods as they fall from their strike cruisers.

    Now as for the Necrons...well, the problem is that the Necrons rely on the Webway. Without it, the Necrons can't actually travel anywhere very fast. There aren't many passages that allow for Necron ships to enter, so their mobility is limited. And without the webway, their ships are limited to sublight speeds. And to make it worse, there isn't a webway in the Star Trek galaxy; that's an artificial construct that exists only in the Imperium. But even if we handwave this away, it would mean that the Necrons are incredibly limited in where and when they can attack.
     
  21. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,706
    The longer your responses the longer it will take for me to get to them, chances are I won't get to this till monday (flying to college tomorrow, spending time with family now), and depending on whether I feel like it I might not ever do it. I got 2/3 of the way through before getting bored. It is fun to debate you hellblade, but most of the time it is such a pain in the ass. If you have some important points to make then highlight them or something. Because I don't want to write a thesis on the topic.
     
  22. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,635
    This kinda reminds me of the Star Wars vs Star Trek days, where all of us had long ass posts and spent hours debating on a thread that lasted for years and thousands of pages. The days when we had hours upon hours to waste...
     
  23. Grellish Registered Member

    Messages:
    2
    Unless you know about them then i dont think it matters. You said it is probably not true but is close enough. It isnt close enough it is absolute and accurate because you have no other example and the main civilisations are tiny in comparison

    What difference does that make. You said the tau didnt get crushed so the imperium couldnt divert any troops to destroy the feds but the eastern fringe is under attack by the tyranids and many many other species so the damocles crusade doesnt work as an example. The reinforcements for the damocles crusade are called back due to tyranids.
    The tau codex only shows a selection of worlds. It does not show them all, for example only two third phase worlds are listed but there are hundreds. Tau space is densely populated with habitable planets inside the Damocles gulf so their territory is isolated initially. No scale is given for the map so i would like to know how you know what area it covers.


    A single ork battlekroozer can carry hundreds of thousands of orks and ork space hulks are commonly shown as carrying millions. All waaghs build up from small to large. Having a holodeck will not help sf against orks so can you explain what tech advantage will do to offset the military power of ork?

    Can you post where it is said that the borg are testing the federation by sending a single ship to get new methods of adaption?

    Where is it shown that torpedos are immume to phasers? Also 40k torpedoes are heavily armoured. Trek energy weapons can be blocked by throwing physical matter in the way as well.

    Tyranid ships use energy blasts and arcing energy strikes to destroy incoming ordnance in Warriors of Ultramar.

    Even after the codex introduced the compressed gravity corrriodor tyranids are written using warp travel as well. So they can clearly do both.

    Tyranid ships are notoriously difficult to detect despite being huge alien monsters they are lost in the background radiation of space.this could be related to the psychic stealth that the hive mind can use in Hive Battle. The tyranids could block the scans as well!

    this does not prove that the star trek ship can detect all life on any planet anywhere it just shows they can detect life on a planet. You are making the assumption that they have done so perfectly.

    You have gone beyond the scope of my comment since you said that starfleet would catch warning signs of tyranid spores before they reach the planet. I said that if spores are falling on a planet then the warning sign should be the planet surrounded by tyranid ships. You have not read my post correctly. Tyranids drop vanguard organisms quite a lot but they dont always have to.
    Tyranid scouts also perform spectroscopic analysis of stars and solar system emissions to find planets to target. Tyranid cults form on planets when genestealer cults are engendered. But they dont need genestealer cults and the vanguard organisms can spread over multiple star systmes meaning you cannot just concentrate your forces.

    I do not think you can use the excuse of tv to rule out the fact that most of star trek fights at much shorter ranges and they are unlikely to do otherwise because you want it to be that way
    Exterminatus has not managed to defeat the tyranids, or viral weapons deployed against them in space. The bio-toxin from Warriors of Ultramar does not work any more.

    Also the virus didnt result in total destruction of the tyranid since tyranid forces still survived on tarsis ultra and the planet was reclassified as a tropical deathworld in The Heroclitus effect short story. It was originally a temperate planet with severe cold weather periods. Hive fleet leviathan was not defeated.

    If it is a chain reaction weapon then surely it needs a medium to propogate through. Also tyranid ships are heavily armoured with rapid regeneration and their own defensive biology. The biometric warhead was designed to hide the nanoprobes from species 8472 so it probably wont work on tyranids who rapidly adapt to attacks.
    If the nanoprobes were delivered by phasers and torpedoes then it is more likely that they were modified to not be doing their damage normally. Otherwise a borg drone should be armoured in nanoprobes since they can stop capital ship weapons fire.

    Tyranid armour uses inorganic elements such as the alloys derived from hyperdense adamantium ore for example.

    Also a tyranid starship is not the same as a human being, the toughest example of an organic life form destroyed is a human. Are you proposing that a thalaron pulse will destroy diamonds?

    Where did you find out that it was a canonical error?

    Hammer and anvil The necron recall signal recalls them to the closest tomb world or World Engine.


    I dont see the point in repeating myself but i will. As i pointed out world engines and examples from hellforged and Dark apostle require that the c'tan gifts still include powerful ftl drives. This would explain why Anrakyr can travel with inpunity to awaken necron tombs without having access to somnolent necron dolmen gates.

    I would like you to quantify the ability of the borg to adapt a scattering field to block necron teleportation since it is so much more powerful and advanced than their own.

    I dont see why you think that the celestial orrery is an example of how weak the necrons are. It is a very strange argument and has no value as a reply.

    Dead sky black sun. The living metal bionic arm that infested the cybernetics of a space marine cut through and assimilate the daemon axe blade embedded in it

    The Undying One in the Word Bearer series assembles himself from the nano-scarabs.

    The self repair of necrons on the battlefield demonstrates their own repair capabilities with the enhanced version using power from phylacteries and other lord tech repairing necrons from molten puddles (codex necrons)

    The borg have no such equivalent for their drones whom they can manage to bring back from the dead but never do so during a firefight for example, or repairing them from molten puddles.

    In fact they cannot survive when their biological tissue is destroyed. A necron warrior would have laughed at the plasma coolant if he could laugh.
    What is "foiling a phaser" ?

    Also none of that is teleportation?

    I am thinking there must be a problem with the english here because you are saying the tyranids are stupid because all they do is wave attacks except wwhen they repeatedly dont. Then you want to use this as the only example we can use because it is the only one you know?

    Tyranids were winning before the biotoxin was used so it is not sensible to argue that they were doing something wrong as they adapted each time there was a problem or a defence against them.
    It is odd that this does not appear to be how federation people fight anywhere except in your imagination?

    Can you tell me which episdoes all these powerful federation troops are shown in because i only see the ones where they shoot at people with phasers in single beams and pulses to kill them. Also how are they going to find the main chamber and kill the norn queen in every hive ship?
    Which colony is this and did it have the phaser banks and photon mortors you have made up?
    The warriors of ultramar fleet is quite small? Also being outnumbered in a system is not countered by being able to move ships around a single system because you are still outnumbered in that star system i am afraid.

    Can you be more specific please perhaps a link from a website since i cannot find it on google. Also in the original series starships can fly across the galaxy and many other things that they cannot do in later series so i would ask that you have an example of a photon grenade from tng.

    Do they ever use them in tng at all?

    .

    If the technical manual is not canon as appears to be the case then it seems this is not any use so I would be only imagining something that is not actually the case it would be imaginary! I think this is very appropriate since you are imagining lots of things that are not actually happening in star trke!

    I do not believe i said the tyranids would be hiding. I said they would burrow underneath. But can you explain why a star trek sensor that can read the temperature of a planetary body means that any sensor from star trek can find a tyranid if they are burrowing?

    I remember just like that time the federation used transporters to beam boarders off their ships into space. Sometimes i dont think sarcasm crossed the language barrier so i hope it is clear.

    Beaming bombs underground your own city! I see you are sun tzu reborn sir

    also i would ask why tactical bomb beaming is not commonly used by the federation in all fields of battle
    Deep space nine is a space station so you must mean something else
    You have mentioned all this a lot and i have asked questions on some of it. All together i must ask you to show me where this sort of thing exists around star trek cities

    Please can you show where star trek cities have nuclear missile batteires thank you also tyranids are all over the planet so nuking your own city would not be a good idea.

    Also since this was in reply to your not very good argument about tyranids being dumb animals i would think you should address that argument and not move on to another as if that was what i was talking about thank you
    Genestealer infestation changes the genetics of victism so this will probably work i think. Plus they need to actually set the transporters to do things like this although you are very not good at being right about star trek so i must ask where you get your information on this?


    This does not reply to my post?
    For the tyranids i think the trade off would be better yes. Also again you are replying to a different argument because i was explaining how you are wrong to insist on calling tyranids dumb animals since they arent.

    Where have you gathered your information? Genestealers are motivatedd to spread their infestation. Ygmarl genestealers are the breed that is known to be used as traps and left on planets in stasis.

    My own apologies but you are going to a lot of effort to say that tyranids are not intelligent and it is not very smartly done.

    The breeds of tyranids that show intelligence are subject to the Hive mind, explicitly not the instinctive nature of a tyranid strain. Different broods have instinctive behaviour inherent to their brood. For example Unless ordered otherwise exocrines will stay at long range and bombard enemy troops. This is the instinctual nature of the subordinate tyranids when not under synapse control Synapse control is the feature of the controlling breeds of tyranids.

    A hive tyrant embodies the will of the hive mind completely but does not diminish it when it is destroyed. Your separation of cunning and intelligence is incorrectly assuming that it is one or the other. Tyranid Hive tyrants and their ilk are cunning and intelligent. This is said repeatedly in the background. Also they don't need to act like a humanoid species or have intelligence like them to be intelligent. You are saying they aren't intelligent but not showing. Show dont tell please.
    A person with a concept of modern tactics would be basing their tactics on human concerns and capabilities and motivations. You have been making the argument that you have just changed to tyranids having different intellect but then you want to talk about how they should act like humans with a different intellect. It is difficult to reply to somone who changes their mind with each parapgraph!
    please dont use fanfiction
    I spoke about this before i am not going to post it all again ok.

    The federation sheltering behind shileds when the entire planet is being tyranoformed will not be a victory even fi we use your fanfiction?

    None of these are planetary shields or continental shileds except for the one TOS example? Your actual evidence does not seem to actually exist. Just like your fanfiction torpedo and phaser banks?

    80 percent seems a very specific number. Where did that come from?

    Also you are using examples of shields of differeing capabilities and scale to act as evidence for multiple continental scale shields being used to cover planets, but you act out when I do the same.
    Please can you have a consistent standard of evidence?

    Also there are 30000 major hive planets in the imperium and verghast was a small hive. So I dont think it really works as a super important world. Please remember that tarsis ultra was only important because of the ultramarines alliance pact as well.
    Do we have a reason to doubting the science officer and the guy involved in teh making of the device?

    Please to show evidence that genesis works properly on a planetary scale as a cave is not a planet.

    Which writers?
    It is described as alkilamor dark matter weapons being the eldar version of exterminatus. It actually says destroy humanity.
    Soldiers and units would be enough as scarabs can construct new ships using raw materials as well.

    According to Imperial glory novel the Imperium has tried to make biological anti-ork weapons before and the Dark eldar have made them as well. The orks became immune eventually.

    Also is this more fanfiction because you just say things like "starfleet could do this" but have no proof?

    And they were upset with him because he was not acting like a Q should. Can you guess what arent supposed to act like q?
    It means that you cannot make the argument that the Q will save trek because they dont like out of control gods

    you have proven they dont like out of control Q.

    Other godlike beings are not q.
     

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