Splinter: Dispute From "Timeless vs Time"

Discussion in 'SF Open Government' started by Undefined, Apr 14, 2014.

  1. Undefined Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,695
    TO MODERATOR:

    Hi Trippy.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    What's up? Why doesn't the troll get banned for ignoring the posts of facts from mainstream sources while he continues to troll his beliefs and opinions and links to philosophical and not physical 'time' concepts/explanations?

    Are you biased by any chance? Or don't you bother to research the background so you can identify who CAUSES these situations befoe you kneejerk to ban people you don't like personally?


    @Kittamaru: You seem a good sort as mod. How about you check Trippy's bans over the last few months and see how they came about (in my case) by trolls being allowed by TRIPPY to bait and clutter and spoil discussions/threads with seeming repetitive impunity from banning, while the victims have to stay silent or be banned if they defend against the trolls. Biased moderating gives you all a bad rep. Trippy is obviously unsuited for mod position/power because he has been proven via experiment to be biased and personally emotionally 'invested' in the discussion 'outcome' and will not tolerate any of his trolls LOSING an argument with others who based their arguments/points on facts quoted from mainstream itself. It's about time that Trippy was 'retired' for the good of the forum, the site and the members....and espcially for the good of all other mods who are NOT biased and bringing constant disrepute to the site moderators by his self-evident abuse of his power to 'protect' and 'allow' his chosen trolls while they ruin others genuine threads/discussions and then bans the victims whenever they defend against the trolls because REPORTING THEM has proven futile if the mod is BIASED and does nothing until he bans the victim, again and again. It is ludicrous to still be pushing the line that Trippy is NOT obviously biased. The whole forum except the trolls he protects and fvours agree that the moderating by Trippy is nothing less than scandalous. How long can this site and its fair mods turn a blind eye to the bleeding obvious fact that Trippy is a 'bad one' and proven so again and again, and should not have been made mod at all in the first place.

    One can accept that mods are human and make mistakes once in a while. But Trippy's CONSISTENT ABUSIVE BIAS of the rules and his mod powers (it's all in the record), means that no matter what a victim does, that victim is behind the eight ball because Trippy has the power to skew and frame and collude with his 'stalking horse trolls' which get away with murder while they ruin other people's discussions in the knowledge that they will only get a 'token slap on the wrist' just for show while the victim will be permabanned eventually if they continue the sabotage and baiting etc tactics with the connivance of Trippy. Obvious. Too obvious for there to be any more 'excuses' made for Trippy and his like as 'mods'. What's the point in becoming a member here if such types are abusing their power so blatantly without admin stopping them? All the threats from mods don't mean much if you are already TARGETED for framing and banning as has happened again and again, does it? You are going to get banned anyway, right? So what's the good of APPEASING A CROOKED MOD like Trippy?


    Anyhow, kittamaru. If good and fair mods like you are powerless to stand up to Trippy's abusive skewing and protecting trolls and banning innocent defenders against the trolls, then it's not much of a discussion site, is it? If I get banned for speaking up against Trippy's obvious and often biased modding outrages, then so be it. But don't ever say you weren't made aware of the 'rotten apple mods' in your ranks. Good luck to you and everyone who isn't just another crooked psycho masquerading as a PROVEN CROOKED 'moderator' like Trippy!

    We've tried the REPORT button. We've tried the reasonable PM approach. We've tried IGNORING the trolls. We've tried everything recommended. But to no avail. So it's silly to pretend that the victims have any recourse not CUT OFF by crooked mods who bias other mods against the victim rather than actually read what the trolls have been doing. I'll probably be banned for speaking out (no other choice) in open forum against crooked moderators. Oh well, so be it if that is how the troll-mod gang get their kicks. It certainly isn't fair discussion of science on merits they are interested in, obviously. Bye, Kitt, everyone.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  2. Guest Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Grumpy Curmudgeon of Lucidity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,876
    Undefined

    Moderators here do not censor for content(unless the content is vile, offensive, etc.), they moderate for behavior. If they moderated due to the falsity of the content you wouldn't be here. The tantrums you throw when your idiotic posts are resisted is what gets you banned, not the idiocy of your posts in and of themselves. The moderators don't endorse such crackpottery, nor do they kick you out for posting it. Victor Spinoza is as...imaginative(in a strangely innocent way)as any other...intellectually challenged...er, spectacularly ill informed...er, special poster, but he stays in his ken...er, special place and doesn't bite anybody, so he is tolerated, and ignored. I've tried talking to him, but I get more back and forth from a fence post. He too has an inflated opinion of his own genius, but he behaves better so no one bothers him, or with him. It's a survival strategy, just sayin'.

    Grumpy

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  4. Guest Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,703
    Interesting to note, that I have had moderation by both Kittamaru and Trippy, one by Kitt in a non science thread about Gun control and which I have a strong opinion about and happened to call a spade a shovel.
    :shrug: I took all my suspensions like a man should.
    It actually benefited me in that I had more time doing what I should be doing.


    Nothing more to be said, other than nice post Grumpy, especially your reference to Victor.
     
  6. Guest Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Undefined Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,695
    Good morning, Grumpy.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Pull the other one mate, it's got bells on! You turned out to be just another troll after all. Never thought I'd see the day, mate.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    You and paddo ignored all the mainstream quotes which proved your 'beliefs' and 'philosophical' arguments about 'time' and 'space-time' were just that, beliefs and philosophy, not actual real physics based. Einstein, Penrose, Carroll (even the linked article YOU quoted from) agreed with Maxila, BlackHoley et al. But do you care about the physical mainstream facts which contradict your personal belief/philosophy stance you stubbornly troll again and again despite the evidence against it? No. That makes you and paddo the 'cranks' and 'crackpots', mate.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    So it's a bit rich for you now to gloat over people getting banned by CROOKED MODS who enable you trolls to sabotage and 'censor by troll tactics' which get the victim/target banned and leave you trolls without a blemish. How hypocritical can you get, Grumpy? Please no more rationalizations like you have been making for your failures and 'crank' and 'crackpot' repetitive posting of your beliefs and philosophies in lieu of physics. The facts are against you, as per quoted Einstein, Penrose, Carroll, wiki etc presented for your information...which you blithely avoided acknowledging/addressing while you accuse others of being the ignorant cranks and trolls!

    Get over it, Grumpy. The science is catching up with the reality at last. Maxila knew it. Everyone knew, except the stubborn cranks and trolls pretending to 'defend mainstream' while they ignore the mainstream info which blows your personal beliefs and philosophy in lieu of science out of the water you trolls 'play' in for your own ego agendas having nothing at all to do with fair discourse of science. Only troll tactics on your part so far, Grumpy. Not good for your blood pressure in the end, to deny reality as you accuse others of doing so often. Hypocrisy and stubborn refusal to accept the reality is not going to do anything for you and your troll mates like paddo, except keep you ignorant of the reality being further disclosed by those not mired in personal beliefs and philosophy 'misunderstandings' of what 'time' and 'space-time' is.

    Did you read posts #78 and #85, Grumpy? And all the other info posted for your delectation from mainstream? If you had, you wouldn't be such a troll still on this matter. So good luck if you can't be bothered to read and understand properly what mainstream ACTUALLY have to say about 'time' and 'space-time'...as has been posted for you again and again, to seemingly no avail against your stubborn blinkered PERSONAL EGO-based kneejerking MO of discussing/understanding, in lieu of objective science MO.

    Good luck, mate! Watch your blood pressure, anyway. Bye.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  8. Kittamaru Suppose it makes sense. Wearing a bit thin. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,937

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Well... that escalated quickly...
     
  9. Grumpy Curmudgeon of Lucidity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,876
    Undefined

    You know, suicide by mod is not necessary, you could just stop posting non-sense and discuss your ideas like a normal human.

    Do you want to take BlackHoley's place in that formal debate I was so looking forward to? It's a simple question, "Does time exist in the Theory of Relativity as published by A. Einstein?" Because before we can discuss anything else the lies and disinformation you guys have posted must be straightened out, once and for all. Are you up for it?

    Grumpy

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  10. Undefined Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,695
    Hi Grumpy.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Did you read the same FULL article YOU linked to that proved your arguments were based on personal speculations and philosophical beliefs about 'time', and not 'time' in physical energy-space terms? If so, why persist in this trolling charade. The matter is settled to your cost, not BlackHoley's or Maxila's et al. The fact that the usual Trippy 'colluding-with-the-losing-trolls' troll-mod himself has to intervene and tie the other person's hands behind their backs in order to let you get away with murder, is just more proof that you were losing this one, mate! Obvious. Concede with grace instead of continuing your newfound trolling agenda, Grumpy.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!




    What? How is it suicide to speak up against crooked mods? Unless of course the crooked mod IS a crooked mod and will permaban anyone who exposes the facts that they ARE crooked mods?

    But then it's not a question of suicide but of speaking up against abuse of power by crooked psycho types masquerading as 'mods'. Yes?

    The fact that you would prefer someone to quietly slink away from confronting the crooked mod rather than expose them is not a healthy sign for your own neighborhood if your own crooks run the place while you would prefer good men to stand by and slink away and do nothing to expose them.

    Such cowardice and appeasement of crookedness doesn't sit well with the image I had of you as an HONORABLE MAN and not someone who advises COWARDLY WITHDRAWAL just because it's 'convenient' to your own troll agenda SUPPORTING and EXCUSING and ENABLING the crooked types here and in your own neighborhood.

    Mate, the image of you I had over the years has been tarnished by your actions of late. Good luck with that new way of 'running with the crooks' mentality you seem to have developed of late, mate. Sad to see the once mighty fallen like that. Too bad. Bye.
     
  11. Kittamaru Suppose it makes sense. Wearing a bit thin. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,937

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    No offense man... but damn, you're just kinda taking shots all over the place, aren't you Undefined?
     
  12. Undefined Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,695
    No offence back, mate...but where have you been while the PROVEN troll-mod has been encouraging the trolls all over the place. Just read for yourself how the trolls across the threads have been ganging together to bury, troll and frame the facts to suit their own beliefs and philosophy rather than accepting the mainstream facts as presented which contradict their trolling stance. They complain about others not accepting the facts, but when they refuse and ignore the facts posted to them, it is 'ok' for them to avoid and troll some more? Only in a site where the mod is crooked is that 'ok'. Why should the victims always have the onus put on them by the trolls/mods when it is the trolls/mods who have created the problem? Why should the victims waste precious time on defending (with one hand tied behind their backs by mod THREATS) against the PROTECTED and ENCOURAGED trolls? Why should the victims be banned and the trolls get away scott free time and again?

    If that is 'taking shots all over the place' it's because it's HAPPENING ALL OVER THE PLACE. Even blind Freddy can see it. But it wastes so much of the victims' time and energy to keep defending and reporting and ignoring and NOTHING WORKS because the crooked mod is abusing his power and making the victims do all the heavy work of trying to get the trolls to STOP. But they are encouraged and protected by the mod, so why is it so strange to you that they should be trolling all over the place and getting away with it like that?

    If you good mods stopped the crooked ones from creating the atmosphere where trolls are king and can do as they please, then there wouldn't be any 'all over the place' complaints because the IN-place and IN time complaints would have been dealt with before it got to this stage where the victims have NO CHOICE but to expose them and complain about all the issues in open forum like this.

    Don't blame the victims. And don't start the characterizing as 'hysterical' etc etc the victims who have had ENOUGH by now. There is a limit to patience and meekness in the face of such relentless stupidity and crass troll-mod abuses of power for agendas of ego and not anything to do with science at all (else the trolls would be arguing the facts and not sabotaging the threads).

    So don't just sweep the crooked mod issues that have been ACCUMULATING for some time/instances all over the place now, or yet again trying to characterize the complainant as 'the problem' rather than confronting the REAL problem of crooked biased mod which has been PROVEN BY MY EXPERIMENTS USING THE TROLLS that Trippy IS CROOKED MOD and no excuses will 'cover' that anymore. Good luck and read you round, mate, if Trippy comes in and does what he does best to protect his trolls again. It has gotten blatant and boring to watch Trippy 'at his crooked best' over the last few months. So cheers and no hard feelings against you, kitt, or any of the good mods here. Bye!

    PS: Rembember, Kitt, everyone honest here: "For evil to triumph it is enough that good men do nothing".

    Speak up or be part of the problem. Cowardly/meek appeasement of the crooked types is just adding to the problem. Yes? Good luck, all good men/women!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  13. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,703



    This is not about good men doing nothing, or evil or triumph or anything else you imagine.
    This is about Alternative notions that you so urgently and fanatically want accepted, without adhering to scientific methodology or peer review.
    It's about delusions of grandeur and anti mainstream bias that some want to push in what is first and foremost a science forum, with appropriate sections for alternative theories.
    It's about the failure of those attempting to railroad these alternative theories, to be able to accept criticism.
    It's about the paranoia that according to these people, that everyone else is to blame, and that they are just victims of a biased process.
    It's about the one chance in a million that at least two of these antagonists, claim to be ready to write a book, and are completing a ToE, that will rewrite 20th/21st century physics.
    It's about the one chance in a million, that if they were in any way true, they would be pushing their stuff in a forum like this.
    :shrug:
    That's what it is about.
     
  14. Undefined Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,695
    It's paranoia until the real crook is exposed, like my experiments using you and other 'protected trolls' to expose Trippy and his crooked bias and abuse of mod power/position to ban the victim and let you worse-than-useless-to-science-advancement trolls get away scott free time and again.

    PROVEN BY EXPERIMENTS: Trippy is a crooked mod; and you are his exploited 'mindless and clueless stalking horse' troll type he uses to create a 'situation' where he can trump up an excuse to ban the victim.


    Bad luck, paddo; you picked a CROOKED TYPE to make your 'protector', obviously, because no self-respecting decent character would touch you worse-than-useless type trolls with a barge pole! Good luck with your chosen 'bedfellows' trolls and psycho-conmen types masquerading on the net as 'mainstream', paddo! LOL.
     
  15. Kittamaru Suppose it makes sense. Wearing a bit thin. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,937
    Alrighty, enough is enough... the constant lashing out and attacking members and staff alike has got to stop. Undefined, take some time off, chill, and come back (hopefully) calm, collected, and rational.
     
  16. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,703


    That small paragraph there and the illusion perpetrated, shows explicitly how some people burdened with self gratutitious agendas, can be so far out of touch with reality
     
  17. AlexG Like nailing Jello to a tree Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,304
    Won't happen. When he was banned as Realitycheck the reason given was 'trolling, trolling, and yet more trolling'. He hasn't changed.
     
  18. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,621
    just Perrfect! Teeheeheee!
     
  19. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    Some points I wish to make.

    1. I was responsible for requesting that the thread being splintered and moved here, the appropriate forum for this discussion.
    2. I asked Kittamaru not to ban Undefined, however, Kittamaru did not see the message until after he had already done so.
    3. I requested Tiassa to remove Undefined's ban.
    4. I resent Undefined's allegations, they are unfounded, and I consider them defamatory, and of course defamation breaches the sciforum guidelines.
    5. I'm not sure what "experiment" Undefined thinks he has conducted to reach the conclusions that he has. What little I can infer from it is that it involved following the advice that I have tried giving him on how to deal with trolls, which is great. If that is the case, then there is one small factor that he seems to have overlooked.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    I don't currently moderate Physics and Math, I can't move threads around, I can't close threads or delete posts, and perhaps most importantly I DO NOT RECEIVE REPORTED POST NOTIFICATIONS FROM THIS SUBFORUM. Regardless of that, I am still a moderator, and feel compelled to act when and where neccessary if there is no active mod in a subforum.

    As, I believe, I have explained to you once before, when you hit the report post button, the report gets sent to the following people:
    The moderator(s) of that subforum.
    Supermoderators.
    Administration.

    It does not get broadcast to all modertaors.

    What I do do at this point, however, is to read threads in the subforum, subcribe to threads that I think might interest me. If ruckus erupts in one of those threads, I will deal with it in what I consider an appropriate manner, because I know that none of the moderators for that subforum are particularly active. In this instance, this morning I initially dealt with blackholey, then as I was getting on the posts that had accumulated overnight, I noticed the exchange between Paddoboy and Undefined. I traced the exchange back to this post which, as near as I can tell, was that start of it IN THAT THREAD. Because of that, I gave Undefined a yellow-card for this post. In truth it should have been the first post in the exchange, or the last. I think I simply got my windows mixed up and some point and thought I was infringing the correct post - but really, that's neither here nor there.

    Let me make one thing perfectly clear:
    I do not, generally, give a flying rats ass

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    About who did what to whom in some other subforum, or some other thread - obviously there are some exceptions to this, for example, if I am explaining to you for the eighth time how to respond to trolls I'm probably going to take that into consideration. I'm not interested in hearing "But mommy, he started it" as an excuse for bad behaviour.
    What I am interested in is your (generic plural) personal conduct in the specific thread I am dealing with and how many red flags you have accumulated on your profile. Those are what govern my decisions, nothing more.

    As a moderator, I expect posters to treat each other as they wish to be treated.
    I would prefer discussions remained rational and calm, however, I expect that occasionally emotions will rise and heated exchanges will occur. Consequently, I expect that posters are wearing their 'grown up' pants because there is a degree of emotional maturity required on this forum, indeed, in online interactions in general. I generally prefer to avoid using the ban-hammer if I can, however, if an individual continues to escalate a situation, I will not hesitate.

    I'm sure there was more I was going to say, but I'm tired, I got distracted, and I lost my train of thought.
     
  20. origin In a democracy you deserve the leaders you elect. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,579
    I believe his answer is the same as BlackHoley - no.
     
  21. Grumpy Curmudgeon of Lucidity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,876
    Undefined

    "Does time exist in the Theory of Relativity as published by A. Einstein?"

    Well?

    Grumpy

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  22. Undefined Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,695
    Did you not read WHY 'the constant lashing out' was FORCED on the victim(s)? Because the modding is crooked or broken such that the victim(s) are left to make such reactions to have the matter dealt with before it gets any worse? See? Your uninformed/biased action in banning me without actually discussing ALL the details FIRST has biased against the victim and added yet more UNFAIR ONUS on the victim to clear his name rather than actually you addressing the ROOT CAUSES of the problems resulting in such victimizations and onuses to defend against troll-mod tactics and sheer dereliction of duty through acting without the full picture as to who should be sanctioned IN FACT not in BIAS FIRST and then make the situation worse for the victim(s) by prejudicing/preventing their SIDE of the story which cannot be fully discussed IF THEY ARE BANNED and so INTIMIDATED such that they are again restrained in their ability to complain and pursue the matter without being THREATENED by MORE bans for doing so. See? The onus is shifted onto the victim and the victim is intimidated and threatened with further bans if they DARE TO SEEK REDRESS through the obviously broken/crooked /mod-system. This has been again demonstrated by you banning me without any real understanding of the long history of what was happening here, and without having heard me out before you acted, which action IS IN ITSELF PREJUDICIAL AGAINST THE VICTIM and places even MORE onus on the victim to clear his name against that LATEST BAN. See the cascade effect of bans without reason or justice, which only adds to the problem needed to be cleared up, because the latest ban AND ACCOMPANYING INFRACTION 'red flags' go against the victim's name and later mods see that and just act without really knowing how and why that 'record' of red flags GOT TRHERE UNFAIRLY in the first place. See what happens? It snowballs into farcical 'records' that is merely the result of a biased and broken mod-system which is STACKED AGAINST victims and gives any NEGLIGENT MOD later the excuse "I was just following orders/record against the victim"....without any questioning of the veracity or fairness OF that record which just builds and builds based on prior false accusations and negligent reaction by the mods concerned.

    In future, kitt, bettr to NOT intervene if you don't have time to gather ALL the facts; rather than just ADD more onus/infractions etc to the PROBLEM of a biased/broken system stacked against the victim. Obviously.

    Thanks for your future understanding of the seriousness and unfairness of the current way the 'mod' system is biased and works AGAINST site policy of open polite discourse rather than troll-mod GANGLAND style 'backroom deals' made by certain trolls and mods to target and ban people who they don't like. The future integrity and reputation of this forum, its members, owners admins and and mods is at stake. Not to mention free and open polite discourse by any member on the science, without having to also be sabotaged and framed and banned and threatened and intimidated by troll-mod 'relic' gangs of the bad old days who still think no-one is watching/testing them...how insensible to their own bad-faith colluding and framing must they still be if they think they can get away with it like in the bad old days BEFORE I PROVED THEY WERE DOING WHAT I OBSERVED THEM DOING on MANY forums.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Kitt: My advice is to read all the facts behind any situation before you act. Then also DON'T under any circumstances take any other 'mods' word for anything when it comes to people they have a PROVEN PREJUDICIAL 'history' of victimization against by their abuse of mod power and using 'stalking horse' troll tactics and baits etc to frame/sabotage for banning. If you are honest, then don't let these cunning sociopathic egotists MANIPULATE your opinions and prejudice you by stealth. Don't trust anyone but your OWN due diligence when contemplating your own mod actions. You're still not fully contaminated by the old-troll-gang tactics. Keep it that way, Kitt, and don't be 'used' by other mods/trolls as they have used many others before you! It's all in the proven record here and in other forums from the bad old days. And for he love of Pete, don't ever again just default to convenient characterizations of "the victim is hysterical and so can't be genuine and so can't be a victim because the mods would never do anything intentionally wrong that would victimize anyone unfairly, would they?" NO way to make decisions, just rationalizations in lieu of factual attention to what went down that created the situation (and will continue to do so unless certain people/things in the mod-system change to PREVENT things getting to this point in the first place. Proactive self-analysis and change in biased/broken system is a good idea, yes? Good luck, everyone!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    PS: In case it all sounds like a 'conspiracy theory', you might care to research just how many of the old mod-troll gang from the old days here and elsewhere STILL act and think 'in corcert' against the PERSON when they have run out of arguments and are losing the debate in a thread. Many of them are the same gang of trolls and mods who KNEW EACH OTHER for a long time, and were part of the PhysForum FORUM MAFIA gang of troll-mods. Their 'remnants' are still infiltrating the sites and creating theses problems by prejudicing/sabotaging and abusing mod powers (which they should be stripped of immediately for the good of science and the sites), because even after they were EXPOSED and PROVEN by my experiments over the years, they still are so lamebrained and trollish mentalities running on EGOS and GANG-THINK that they delude themselves they are 'ok' and 'no-one is noticing' them going about their nefarious antics and abuses against all proper scientific open discourse ethics by abusing their 'infiltrated mods' powers and troll-gang tactics.

    Insensible types like that who are not even aware of just how silly and destructive to scientific discourse they are being, have nothing to offer sites or science except LOSS OF REPUTATION and INTEGRITY for all. Such types SEEK POWER so they can ABUSE IT. Obviously. Don't trust anyone who seeks such powers or pretends to perpetrate such abuses 'in the name of defending mainstream orthodoxy', because that way lay madness not advance. History shows again and again that such types WILL abuse it for their own egos and ends. Period.


    Let's get rid of them from the 'mod-pool' once and for all, hey? Remember always, everyone: It's THE PRINCIPLE of the thing, always; NOT the PERSON, ever. Cheers.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  23. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,621

    So much for the subject at hand, Grumpy! I was really looking forward to this debate but looks like the MAFIA has Undefined sidetracked.
     

Share This Page