Spanking your child?

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by ElectricFetus, Jun 12, 2003.

?

Is Spanking ok?

  1. Always

    14 vote(s)
    18.4%
  2. When all else fails

    30 vote(s)
    39.5%
  3. Never

    27 vote(s)
    35.5%
  4. It depends, will explain below in post...

    5 vote(s)
    6.6%
  1. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,140
    Some Aribella said on the political sub-forum pissed me off and I don't think she was saying anything like this but any ways:

    I personally have seen the result of "New age" parenting in which you should never hit your child, and the result are not pretty! my step mother is a mega new age freak and she has a 2 year girl and a 6 year old boy named Ryan. Organic foods only, no TV in the house, no promotion of violences in any form, no spanking every as followed under a strict varity of how to discipline your child psychology books. and the results are a slightly obese, prone to stare at a tv and being totally mezmorized apon seeing one, spoiled little brat that hit other child and his parents, goes into tamper tantrums when he does not get his way (at 6!), has no respect for anyone including his parent who he will hit when he mad, little narcissist.

    Now I on the other hand was raised in a "lets figure out how to raised him as we go along" and was spank alot! I respect my parents (not because I was spanked by them) I was raised with a good level of strictness in what I should and should not do, I was warned, explained why it was wrong and if I continued would be punished by time outs, chores and spankings... I have even been belted before (for setting fire to window curtains)I also watched a lot of TV especially cable channels like Discovery, NGC, news (TLC, Science, techtv and History was not around back then). I played alot of videogames (most of which my mother was addicted to) such as Wolfinstien, Doom I-II, Quake I-III, Carmagedoon I-III ect. I my self am a non-violent, left-wing, agnostic, college student now.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2003
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  3. weebee Registered Senior Member

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    Hmmmm…yes it depends on the child, and the parents. Coming from a family where my mother was violent to my farther (who she considered a suitable target) I’m quite glad she thought spanking was wrong, because had she started she’d have never stopped. But I understand there are those who think being spanked did them well.

    I like the comparison between training dogs and children. Clicker (reward) training works wonders while spanking dogs tends not to work, especially when they get too big.
    I guess it’s a case of realising that we need to train our children, that they are not naturally good little humans. So that if you know your child will throw a tantrum over not being able to see TV, create the situation when you feel strong enough to handle it and when you have the time. And you need to do it over and over again and find a suitable reward for good behaviour.

    But I’m rather intrigued that you don’t question your need to set the curtains on fire. . .

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  5. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    I was a kid and I can't remember how it happened really...

    Sure positive reinforcement works well but on test with rats negative reinforcement taught them 7 times faster. I was raised under: if you do something wrong they will warn you not to do it again or if it was bad enough they would put me in time out or so forth (like the fire thing was a one time incident) if I repeat I would be punished or punished harsher so forth, they did not stop before physical punishment because they did not feel that was a limit, my stepmother on the other hand can not spank Ryan, she tells warns him that it wrong and why he should not do it but when he repeats she try to put him in time out and he just walks away or has a tantrum, breaks stuff in rage, so forth, he does not respect his mother because she has no authority, there is nothing she can do to stop him, I have seen her hit him though out of pure rage, once Ryan punched his baby sister and his mother just slap him across the face right on the spot, not a good tactic I think, but her fuse was burnt out from all the other stuff Ryan had done wrong the whole day, and she just erupted on him like that. My step-mother does positive reinforcement but there is no way to do that when he is bad. It requires long term goals, like she won’t get him a new toy unless he is good, but Ryan does not think ahead yet, and it has only the effect of cause a tantrum and more bad things when he is told he will not get something because he was bad.

    I am not saying non-spanking does not work but I think it depends on the child, some children have a natural respect for their parents authority, some like Ryan or I do not. So one should parent on the qualities of the child rather then on some guild lines in a book.

    No spanking does not induce respect directly, it teaches the child that there is some thing they just can’t do without very painful consequences, as they get older they listen more and understand the reason why they should not do that, they hear there parents complain or complement them and come to trust their parents as guide and authority: do as s/he says because s/he is my parent and is right and knows what best for me to do.
     
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  7. weebee Registered Senior Member

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    374
    I mostly agree with you, but I’m not sure about; some children have a natural respect for their parent’s authority. I think it’s more a case of how parents interact with very young children. In the cases where the children don’t respect their parents I think they have been spoilt as young babies and toddlers. As they grow up the parents try to remove the huge attention and toys and the children protest.

    I would have thought that a six year old should be able to think ahead, maybe not for things like toys, but trips to the zoo, which he has memories of might work better. And really that’s not the type of reward that I was thinking of, more the emotional reward of being ‘a good boy’ reinforced internal satisfaction. I watched a documentary on child psychology once where there were two sisters, one of which always needed the parent’s attention and help to do tasks. Watching the way they interacted you could clearly see that the parents were reinforcing the behavior as much as the child. After being told to ignore the child but praise her when she did it on her own, the child learnt to get enjoyment from doing her own things.
    So I guess the question might be how is your step-mom reinforcing Ryan’s behavior?

    I don’t think the negative reward system of rats should be used on humans, dogs or horses, because these creatures tend to grow up larger than the controlling human, and if it fails there is quite a good chance that you could get punched by your 6 foot 16 year old son…(but maybe this is the same likelihood of non-negative reward systems (good empirical research topic perhaps)

    I really should stop viewing children and animals as similar objects

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  8. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Define spoiling? Many people don’t seem to know what spoiling is in fact very dangerously so!

    My step mother followed all the positive reinforcement scheme the books told her, She even specified to me that you complement them when they do something good or on there own or helpful.
    and it failed miserable.

    perhaps some children enjoy being complemented more then others even find it hurtful when it is no supplied.

    humans are animal just very smart talking ones with opposable thumbs. Therefore an animal model can provide rough details on how the human system works, test using electro-shock on humans (adults, I don’t remember of hearing of any studies on unconsenting, unpayed children) match the same as animals… hum, perhaps if we put elector-shock collars on all are children

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    what are your opinions on media violence?
     
  9. wesmorrisbabe Ethusiastic bistander Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    266
    I've got two kids, a two (almost 3-year old and an almost 1-year old) and time-outs seem to be the most effective for my eldest daughter. A year ago, I used to "spank ocassionally but as a last straw" when she did something wrong, but even though I used physical punishment as a last measure, that minimal action caused her to act out. (And I'm not saying that this is true for all kids, nor giving advice NOT to spank, just telling this story of a personal situation.) So, I decided to implement the time-out strategy and we have no problems with her behavior. In fact, merely the mention of a 'time-out,' changes her actions immediately. Every parent, though, has different strategies and sometimes it's good to experiement to find what works.
     
  10. SwedishFish Conspirator Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,908
    i can't imagine what a kid could do that is so bad they deserve a spanking. they're just doing what they're supposed to do, being kids. we have a strict no hitting kids policy in my family. nobody ever hit anybody else. when i worked in retail in high school i would see mothers yelling at their kids in the store going "DON'T ::SMACK:: HIT ::SMACK:: YOUR ::SMACK:: BROTHER!!!" hrmmm wonder where he gets it. my brother has the two loveliest, well behaved kids ever because he reasons with them. i understand not everyone has genius kids who can understand logic

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    but goddamn it works. they're smart, can make good decisions on their own and are just so nice. they know why they have to do what he says, not just because he says it. the funny part is that every kid in my family is hyperactive. it takes an infinite amount of patience to deal with hyperactive kids but it can be done without losing it. my mom did it, her mother did it, her sisters did it, my brother is doing it and i look forward to doing it too. there's no such thing as a bad kid, only bad parents. the parents are the ones that need a spanking.
     
  11. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,140
    Ryan was never hit (tell recently) and he hits everyone! I remember when he was 3 he was at a park and throw a pebble at another little kid, hit him on the head, the kid cryed, Ryan laughed… I think by the time Ryan is in his teen I should fear for my life, "can't visit dad Ryan might kill me"!

    My sister Thias (my mothers and step fathers kid) is also 6 and has never I mean NEVER been spanked or hit in any way. She is punished with time-outs and the threat of a spanking but see rarely does wrong and when she does so she doesn't repeat it after one of the above is administered. Now I don't understand this in that me and my brother Nathan (also my mother and step-fathers kid) were spanked, perhaps girl-ness makes her more obedient and to lovable to hit? I pray this is the case for my other sister (my step-mother and fathers kid)!
     
  12. cthulhus slave evil servant Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    754
    lol. ryan sounds just like me when i was little. exept i used to kill our pets. our family lost a couple puppies, a cat, a couple bird, and a gold fish to my wicked 'tendencies'.
    she would never hit. just try to reson.
    i lit the yard on fire. "that was bad. what if the house burnd down? where would we live?"
    for all i cared we could live in a dumpster. i was a demon child.
    but i grew out of it. it was just an evil faze. just make sure you dont let him near chlorene or gasoline.
    if you lucky he wont grow up to be a killer or somthing.
    tell her to put him in ballet or somthing. my mom tried that. i got in trouble for hurting the girls. lol.
    get him doing somthing constructive. or just burry him in the backyard.
    some kids just dont care about the toys or time outs. you just gotta swat em. i was also one of those kids who when i was punished ide just get back at her later by puting salt in her drink or pins in her chair. lol. i had a fun childhood...

    btw. my mom tried a dog colar on me around my wrist. still have scares. dont u darte try it. that thing hurt like hell and just made me madder.
     
  13. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,140
    So there is hope then, thank god! Here here don't change a thing I'm going to send this link to my father.
     
  14. Bebelina Feminazi Messiah Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,997
    Using violence against children or anybody else is always wrong. You will hurt the child both physically and emotionally and also teach the child that violence is a good way of solving problems, which it isn't, in case you had any doubt.


     
  15. weebee Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    374
    You might be interested in the book They F*** You Up: How to Survive Family Life by Oliver James. What I’ve read of it is quite funny –in a good way.

    As for media violence, they showed Total Recall yesterday and I’ve decided that I have nothing against TV and Cinema violence if its realistic (the injures actually seeming to hurt). There is a feeling that children should not come into contact with danger and pain, but in doing so are we failing to teach them how to deal with them?

    I know that many people on this forum like the idea of everything being genetically determined and set by the time the child is born. However I think brain chemistry and biochemistry is quite dynamic in this regard. Studies such as http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/goleman/ indicate that the environment of the early upbringing is important (not only with violence, but also with developing empathy).

    What will happen if we wrap our children up in cotton wool letting them get their emotional rush out of films and games, which currently have no moral and empathic value?

    Btw, I think that if a child kills something I think it is very important that they be taught to understand what pain is. They may grow out of it, but there is only a limited number we can send into the army if they don’t.
     
  16. Chagur .Seeker. Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,235
    I looooove the 'When all else fails' option!

    By then the parent, or whoever, is so pissed they're
    incapable of administering an appropriate punishment
    and abuse is often the result.

    :m:

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    :m:
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2003
  17. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    cthulhus slave, you sound like me when I was a kid. I didn't kill animals though.

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    Anyways, I don't see why it would be necessary. None of the children in my extended family are physically disciplined, and they're decently well behaved. Mama was too afraid of me to beat me (well, she was once I grew old enough to hurt the bitch back - *grins*) and I haven't killed anyone yet.

    Why anyone would want well behaved children is beyond me.

    weebee:
    Actually, a good smack under the chin works on Shephards.

    Bebelina:
    Actually, violence is a very effective solution to many problems. But not towards children.
     
  18. weebee Registered Senior Member

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    374
    'violence is a very effective solution to many problems.'

    I can't think of one. Killing, maybe because it removes the 'problem' but violence as a solution?

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  19. Bebelina Feminazi Messiah Valued Senior Member

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    Xev, can you give an example?
     
  20. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    10,943
    WW2, off the top of my head. Force met by superiour force can solve problems.

    I consider the sublimation of our violent instincts to be a bad thing. It breeds weakness, hypocrisy and a frustrated desire for power.

    Not that I believe we should beat the shit out of each other for the most trivial things, but rather that we should aknowledge our aggression rather than hide it.
     
  21. mouse can't sing, can't dance Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    671
    Xev,

    Weakness? How? The sublimation of violent instincts does not imply you are completely defenseless. In my perspective it rathers implies that you first explore other options, before exploding into a fight. Hypocrisy? Probably you are right there. Desire for power? Well, isn't this present in all of us regardless if we try to subdue violent uprisings in ourselves?

    I'm not sure how to acknowledge aggression without beating someone to the ground. How is it done?
     
  22. Bebelina Feminazi Messiah Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,997
    Yes, we should acknowledge our aggression, but learn to use it in a non hurtful way. Because regardless of wether superior force can conquer a weaker force through violence, it still causes great suffering, and sets a bad example for future ways of solving similar problems.
    Using war upon humanity is like beating a child.
    It gets silent for the moment but inside grows a huge desire for revenge.
    And the circle will never stop...
    But we can talk about this hypothetically how much we want, violence will still be there for a long long time to come, humanity is a slow learner.
    I think humanity would have to evolve into drastically different beings before people can stop their aggression from becoming violence.
    Perhaps we can aknowledge violence as a way of solving problems in the past, but also see that it lead us to a very unfriendly place, and if we want that to change we must also change our behaviour.

     
  23. Bebelina Feminazi Messiah Valued Senior Member

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    4,997
    "I'm not sure how to acknowledge aggression without beating someone to the ground. How is it done?"

    You can easily transform the feeling if you are made aware of it to begin with. When you feel anger, say to yourself " I know feel angry."
    And just be angry, beat the sofa, work out, running works fine, take a log and beat the dirt.
    Or if you are of the more sophisticated kind, you can sit down and meditate and transform the feeling into creativity and write a book, paint art...build a house, start a movement.
    Many books have been written about anger management, read one.

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    Make the adrenalin work for you, not against you.

     

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