Spanking Lowers IQ Points

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by Orleander, Sep 25, 2009.

  1. Ellie Banned Banned

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    if i did then my parents werent around.
     
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  3. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Clearly an outlier. Dismissed.
     
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  5. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    Of course I care and cared about my dads feelings. But where is my responsibility in the event. It was my fault, I chose to take the risk, which put him under tremendous pressure.

    The bottom line, is that without punishment for me, then it would not have mean't the same. How, as a 8 year old am I supposed to truly understand what he went through.

    Kids often don't understand the gravity of situations. This is why we have to tell them not to run in the street.

    We did not feel we would have a problem walking down the road, we didn't think that we might be taken by someone. We never gave it a thought. At that age we need boundaries plain and simple.
     
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  7. Psyche Registered Senior Member

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    There is plenty of info available at psychohistory.com, it's a field of study which goes along way to explaining the wars and atrocities of history (and modern day). You could also investigate the childhood histories of virtually every violent offender. You honestly can't think that people with truly loving upbringings grow up to rape, murder, join hate groups, launch terrorist attacks etc?

    We see the effects of child abuse every day in the newspaper. Children, unlike adults, have no recourse to defend themselves. They are perfect victims, in that they can and are, manipulated into seeing themselves as the aggressors, and their parents as the victims (as is typical in relationships where sociopathy is involved) so it often remains a hidden, secret shame, even from themselves.

    All throughout history the worst crimes against humanity have been done openly, with the sanction of social normalcy, and the veneer of moral necessity. Slavery is a good example. Many arguments used by those against abolition are used today in the debate over spanking, and the general attitude towards children is similar to those towards slaves (that they can’t be trusted, need to be punished for their own good, are incapable of understanding reason etc.)

    As to your comment about how the parents feel, I can respond by saying that I don't care. A child doesn't understand why their parents do what they do, and while their may occasionally be solid mitigating factors against assigning blame, it doesn't doesn't alter or diminish the immediate authentic reality of the child who is trying to figure out what the hell is happening.

    The reason you never felt you were being abused is because you weren’t allowed too. Children who are spanked/ abused simply aren’t allowed to get angry or upset. The only thing that matters in the relationship is the emotional preferences of the parents, nothing else. It’s a survival necessity for children to blame themselves for the upset and aggression of the parent.

    There is no respect in violence. It is not possible to authentically respect yourself if you grant that at any time in the past present or future another human being was completely justified in humiliating you. Nor is it possible to authentically respect the perpetrator.

    Being born into a family is an involuntary circumstance which results in a devotion to parents that is identical to a vulnerable person towards their cult leader. This is why people who were abused as children remain loyal to their parents for life, its virtually impossible to think of ones parents as anything other than supreme moral authorities.

    One of the sickening undertones about these discussions is the implicit, unquestioned assumption on the part of the pro-spanking crowd that a) parents know what they’re doing, and b) they know the difference between right and wrong. Strictly speaking, I would say that spanking ones kids is evidence that neither premise is correct. Knowing the difference between right and wrong has nothing to do with the positive/negative reinforcement that is the accepted norm of teaching morality, it has to do with compelling intrinsic motivation to be a free, honest, compassionate human being, something of which can only be learned through example, an example of which few children ever truly have.

    In general, the act of punishing a child is a total negation of their perception of reality. Scolding a child for not finishing their dinner debases their perception of being full, not liking the food, or having any ownership over their own bodies. Spanking a child “for their own good” leads to them not being able to understand why the fuck the person they love and trust the most in the world is treating them like crap, but blaming themselves anyway, and like a dog, being trained to fear upsetting their parents (ie: bounderies), as opposed to knowing right from wrong for the liberating and beautiful gift of insight and being that it actually is.

    When it comes to child-rearing, siding with the parents leads to an impenetrable relativist fog where what is right is mandated by the emotional whims of the adult, and children are “put in their place” because their is simply no other way to deal with irrational and selfish brats (projection anyone?). When I side with the children, suddenly what’s going on in peoples lives and in the world at large becomes much clearer.
     
  8. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    Unquestioned? Let's try this again...

    Questioned - answered...

    Rebuttal?
     
  9. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    If spankin is so grate... why have the gole of phasin it out as they suggest :xctd:

    For which ever reasons... ignerence/lazyness/other... mos parents wont even put in the time an effort necesary to make "time-outs" work... much less raize ther kids like my parents did whare time-outs wasnt even needed.!!!

    An them suggestin spankin as a "bak-up" is all the escuse a lazy ignerent parent needs to justify continuin to abuse ther children by hittin 'em :shrug:
     
  10. Psyche Registered Senior Member

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    135
    It would firstly be incumbent upon me to point out that this response rather proves the point I was trying to make. I define "knowing what your doing" as the result of the rigorous process of self-knowledge which gives a parent the ability to be able to see their child without projection or expectation, but as a unique being, belonging to no-one but themselves, able to accomplish anything in the world so long as unenlightened people don't get in the way. Relying on studies in order to justify ones style of parenting is exactly the type of collectivistic thinking that damages children in ways that are invisible, because often times what is most present and vulgar is invisible... while I wouldn't argue that studies have no relevancy and can be used to argue a point, I cannot anticipate any rational moral argument that could possible justify the exploitive, sublimely narcissistic practice of spanking.

    Secondly, most parents would properly define anti-social behavior as disobedience to authority. It is a virulent and common transgression of real virtue that being good entails doing as you are told; when in fact, so-called antisocial behavior can at times be a mark of extreme mental health, such as standing up to an obnoxious teacher, refusing to say sorry when you aren’t, and valuing friends or a hobby more than homework etc. Studies are notoriously unreliable, I would consider them just one of many tools in a persons reasoning arsenal to arrive at a conclusion.

    One of the things that gets missed in this study is that children are perceptive enough to know what they can get away with, so they have certain boundaries put in place and they are very good at behaving well. Unfortunately, you simply couldn’t explain the modern world, for the superficial, idiotic, and violent place that it is if that was all there is to it. There is no such thing as violence that doesn’t have negative long-term consequences. The fear and obedience to authority that adults have towards governments, police officers, politicians, and charismatic media figures is of massive hindrance to the creation of a better society. Spanking isn’t teaching morals, its teaching obedience. The distinction I think is important.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2009
  11. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    Look, clueluss, I know you are much more intelligent than you like to let on.

    The answer to your question is the same as:

    Why have the goal of "phasin" out war?
    Why have the goal of "phasin" out crime?
    Why have the goal of "phasin" out lying?
    Why have the goal of "phasin" out all "disabilities"?
    Why have the goal of "phasin" out any sort of mistreatment towards your fellow man?

    Because these are goals! Goals are something we have not yet achieved, or they wouldn't be "goals".

    It would be a great accomplishment if someone found "the magic pill" or "magic words" or "magic philosophy" to achieve the desired results in child upbringing. This has not happened yet, at least to my knowledge. Do I wish that it would? Of course.

    You, my linguistically disabled friend, are one of those I would immediately "help". Perhaps you could learn to spell "a" without assistance.

    Anyway, today's society being what it is, you can not cite one singular study and claim that spanking is wrong under all conditions, for all children. You can claim this but the studies prove you wrong. You can discount the available studies, of course, but this just points out that you are [content sanctioned due to censorship imposed under the zero tolerance policy].

    Furthermore, you have no desire to learn anything new, study anything that does not support your position, and you generally avoid most replies that would disprove the theory that you are a troll. (I believe this is still permissible language, Mods please correct me if I am wrong)

    You have no personal experience (aside from a little "babysitting"), no formal education in this area, no citations, just your own "gut" feeling. That doesn't cut it here "clueluss". Sorry. Grow up and give it up, already.
     
  12. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    You'r only "crime" was bein a 8 year old behavin like a 8 year old might.!!!

    No it woudnt have ment the sam... you was bein taut mor about fear of punishment than appreciaton for other peoples feelins.!!!

    As a 8 year old you'r NOT able to "truly" understan nor shud you be espected to... but 8 IS old enuff to "truly" learn mor about compasson from a parent who knows beter an willin to put forth the effort.!!!

    Emmm... oK.!!!

    Yes... as a 8 year old you didnt fully understan the gravity of you'r error... which shud make it even mor clear that you didnt deserve punishment.!!!
     
  13. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    I totally agree. There are parents that abuse spanking, that are not qualified to dispense such. I do not know if I am one of those, only time will tell. Both my kids are grown, both are functional members of society. What about yours?


    Anyway, the rest of your post (where comprehensible) seemed to state that spanking is designed to instill obedience.

    Absolutely agree.

    However, let us not leave out a very important part. The "before" or "after". If the child does not understand why said punishment was dispensed, then they are hardly likely to learn from it. If you take the time to review my previous posts, you will see that my only advocacy of corporal punishment involved clear and present danger to the child involved. Better a "swat" today, than a "smush" tomorrow.

    This does not alleviate my (or any parent's) responsibility to explain (ad nauseum, if necessary) exactly WHY the child should sit up and take notice of the circumstances leading to that "swat". You raise a child without spanking them more than three times in their lives, have them turn out well-adjusted (as well-adjusted as anyone is these days), productive and happy - then come talk to me.

    Pfffft.
     
  14. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    Hmmm... ive made very it clear that im a genious... so thats quite a compliment you'r givin me... thanks

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    Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
    If spankin is so grate... why have the gole of phasin it out as they suggest

    Beter answr:::

    They suggest phasin out "Whippin kids" because its not somptin a educated an lovin parent wants to do... but unlike eliminatin wars an crimes... ect... not hittin you'r kid is immediately acheivable.!!!

    The good news is... no "magic-pill" or "magic-word" is needed... jus a williness to learn new child rearin techneeks... an it may never include you... but it seems mor an mor people are learnin that whippin ant necesary.!!!
     
  15. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    Clueless,

    And, what I am supposed to be able to act like a brat and disobey my parents without concern for being punished.

    the above is contradicted by this:

    And my parents did teach me to be compassionaite. Not only that but they are some of the most compassionate people I have ever known, they care very much about other people and their welfare.

    You are forgetting that 99.9% of the time, when I was in trouble for something, it was a discussion, it was a time out, it was not a spanking.

    LOL, be sure never to become a parent. You have no idea what your getting into.
     
  16. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry, I forgot you had no trouble letting everyone know how ...ummm... intelligent(?) you are...

    Anyway, I suppose you are going to totally ignore the dissenting 8/9 studies I cited? Probably because you have no need for such in your infinite wisdom?

    Also, you, along with Orly and her "assault" like to play with semantics - "whippin" [sic - totally useless and completely redundant in your case of course] = "spanking"? Did you even bother to read my link? Straight up question, clueluss, or do you prefer to remain "ignrent"?
     
  17. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    2,985
    Psyche,

    First of all, thanks for the in depth answer. A couple of areas I would address.

    Not to skip past all of the child abuse and so forth that we unfortunately hear about.

    What you are saying in the above is that children don't understand and they may not understand all of the troubles that adults go through including at times raising and paying for them.

    But the children do understand very well what it was they did to get in trouble. And again, I am not talking about abused children, that is a totally different scenario.

    I for example, knew damn well what I did was wrong and when I did it and knew when I was crossing a line that mean't risking a spanking. I did it for reasons usually with some peer pressure or to challenge them to see if I could get away with it.

    That is usually the difference between a parent and someone who has never had kids, they think all kids are perfect little joys on the earth. In fact they are little people, young adults and they make mistakes and they test and they challenge and they need boundaries.

    I know I am not alone in saying this is false.

    I was never abused. I was at fault in those instances. I do very much respect my parents and my parents are exceptional human beings.

    And if you notice, I have become an adult who takes responsibility for my actions and words. My parents taught me that.

    When they are abused, correct. Spanking your kid for crossing the line after repeated attempts to correct the behavior in other ways is not abuse.

    Yes because you can't have deep reasonable compelling conversations with a 4 year old. They still think it's possible for Santa Claus to be real.

    And yet I am here to admit honestly that I deserved the spankings I got. I am not going to ever blame them because they were truly my fault. My parents never hit me in anger and I know exactly the pain they went through when it came to having to spank me. I have spanked my two kids 6 and 10 year olds a total of 6 times in the lives thus far and I don't expect to ever have to do it again.

    I truly hurt me more than it did them. Just like it did my dad.

    How bout we let the children pay all the bills and make the decisions on what we should have for dinner while your at it.

    It's a real stretch to say because we have spanked our kids a few times in their lives for going over the line. That all of the sudden after years of waking up and taking care of their helpless selves as babies and making sure they have food to eat and a warm bed to sleep in and on and on and on, that we are just abusers.
     
  18. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    “ Originally Posted by jpappl
    Of course I care and cared about my dads feelings. But where is my responsibility in the event. It was my fault, I chose to take the risk, which put him under tremendous pressure. ”

    Origionaly posted by cluelusshusbund
    You'r only "crime" was bein a 8 year old behavin like a 8 year old might.!!!

    Well... if thats how you choose to describe it... but any concern you had about punishment certanly didnt keep you from "disobeyin".!!!

    ===============================
    Please pont out the contradicton you see an i will respond to it.!!!
    =============================

    Thats jus mor evidence that Whippin kids ant necesary... you'r dad was under tremendous pressure an scared sht-less when he discovered you was missin... an that fear an pressure translated into him Whippin you... hell... you had the mentality of a 8 year old... you didnt realize how much you'r sneekin off coud hurt you'r dad... an i suspect you woud have learned mor about compasson if you had received hugs an seen tears insted of gettin Whipped... an i also suspect you woud have been jus as likely not to pull a stunt like that agan if you had received hugs insted of bein "hit".!!!

    Sadly... i suspect that mos parents dont

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  19. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    Clueless,

    First of all, I did keep me from doing it again. I did learn more from the punishment that certain actions have consequences.

    Secondly, what is the parent supposed to do, let them get away with it over and over again. Being a parent means at times having to discipline, if your not on board with that, you will fail as a parent.

    I did in your own words but here again:

    You'r only "crime" was bein a 8 year old behavin like a 8 year old might

    you was bein taut mor about fear of punishment than appreciaton for other peoples feelins.!!!

    “ How, as a 8 year old am I supposed to truly understand what he went through. ”

    As a 8 year old you'r NOT able to "truly" understan nor shud you be espected to...

    You do realize that some kids will do this to get attention don't you. Again, you are not looking at what I wrote.

    99.9% of the time there was no spanking because what I did was not something that required a spanking.

    But when I did cross that line, it's not about teaching compassion. It's about teaching me not to do it again. It's about discipline, without it we will fail as adults and my parents did what they had to do, not that they wanted to.

    The kids don't come with a personalize instruction manual.
     
  20. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    I read what you posted (from you'r link) an i trusted that you was honest in what you posted an that you posted the pertanant parts to you'r "argument"... an i ponted out why i wasnt impressed... which you didnt respond to.!!!

    You mosly seem interested in makin personal atacks on me... which is fine wit me... i thank its funny... but unless you also respond to my on-topic replyes you dont give me much to respond to.!!!
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2009
  21. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    Originally Posted by jpappl
    And, what I am supposed to be able to act like a brat and disobey my parents without concern for being punished. ”


    Origiojnaly posted by cluelusshusbund
    Well... if thats how you choose to describe it... but any concern you had about punishment certanly didnt keep you from "disobeyin".!!!


    You had been Whippped befor... you have admited that you knew what you was doin was rong... an yet... a concern about punishment did not keep you from "disobeyin" agan... ie... a fear of punishment did not keep you from disobeyin".!!!



    You admit that 99% of the time you'r parents didnt hit you to get you to behave... an the esample you did give whare you'r dad Whipped you was when he was under tremendous pressure... an i thank that says mor about his emotional state than what you "deserved".!!!

    I thank if he had calmed down... the situaton coud have been handled wit-out him hittin you... jus as he handled other situatons 99% of the time wit-out violence.!!!

    =========================
    Origionaly posted by cluelusshusbund
    Please pont out the contradicton you see an i will respond to it.!!!

    Origionaly posted by Jappl
    I did in your own words but here again
    =============================

    Yes you posted what i said agan (words i see nuthin rong wit)... but you still faled to pont out the contradicton you see.!!!

    In you'r own words... tell me what the contridicton is an i will respond to it.!!!

    Origionaly posted by Jappl
    You are forgetting that 99.9% of the time, when I was in trouble for something, it was a discussion, it was a time out, it was not a spanking. ”

    Origionaly posted by cluelusshusbund
    Thats jus mor evidence that Whippin kids ant necesary... you'r dad was under tremendous pressure an scared sht-less when he discovered you was missin... an that fear an pressure translated into him Whippin you... hell... you had the mentality of a 8 year old... you didnt realize how much you'r sneekin off coud hurt you'r dad... an i suspect you woud have learned mor about compasson if you had received hugs an seen tears insted of gettin Whipped... an i also suspect you woud have been jus as likely not to pull a stunt like that agan if you had received hugs insted of bein "hit".!!!

    oK... for som reason... you thank the non-hittin methods of disciplin you'r dad used 99.9% of the time coudnt have been effecive at keepin you from sneekin away from home agan... i except that as you'r beleif.!!!

    But fortunately for the kids... mor an mor manuals are avalable to teech parents how to raize grate kids wit-out hittin 'em.!!!
     
  22. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    No it kept me from doing the same type of thing again. As children grow they come across new issues to face. These issues change and the parents job is to understand these new challenges and lay out boundaries.

    He was under tremendous pressue because of what I did, so I deserved it. This is the problem, people grow up believing they can blame everyone else for their problems and mistakes.

    I would turn this around and say that if my dad hit me for every little thing I did, it would be abuse. There would be no cause and effect understanding because no matter what I did the punishment was the same.

    Spanking in our house was only used when I want way past the boundary laid out by my parents. I knew I was taking a risk of a spanking when I did it because I knew it was really wrong. But I took a chance because I was being a dumbass and had a friend that was egging me on, we could have been taken by a stranger and never seen from again. I deserved what I got plain and simple.

    LOL. Sell books, yes sure. Next time someones kids wants to push the house rules and acts up I will just call one of them up and tell them to get their ass over to my house and take care of it.

    Like I said, my neighbor is a child psychologist and talks all the time about discipline options blah blah blah, meanwhile she has the worst behaved kid in the neighborhood because she basically refuses to truly discipline her.

    Do you remember when we asked for alternatives to spanking for the serious offense ?

    What did we get. If you read those books, they give you "possible solutions" of course they aren't going to advocate spanking, I don't advocate spanking. I have always maintained it as a last not first resort and if reached it represents a failure of the kid to understand they have crossed the line. Then they understand and even though they might make mistakes in the future, they won't be so flipped with decisions that might cross the line.
     
  23. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    OK, point by point...

    Hardly personal attacks on you, if anything, implied compliments plus slight expression of my annoyance at your feigned inability to spell. I really, really, really would like to know the motivation behind your spelling (or attempt thereto), other than pure and simple aggravation of our neighbors. If you have a better / more reasonable explanation I'd love to hear it. If it's embarrassing, PM me.


    Seems reasonable to me, similar examples offered - this is a common method of communicating during a discussion / debate. Still don't see the "personal attacks" here...


    Alright, I pushed the envelope here. Nonetheless, it would be refreshing to see some improvement in your spelling of one syllable words, perhaps we can move up to two syllable or even three in the near future. Now if you are unable to put this comment together with "Look, clueluss, I know you are much more intelligent than you like to let on." and come out with some sort of viable conclusion, than perhaps I should reevaluate your genius.


    Simple truths, to the best of my knowledge. Backed by citations. Do you find these quotes to be a personal attack against your beliefs simply because they differ? If that's the case, perhaps you might find a friendlier place, one filled with cotton and soothing music. Care to refute the study I cited? I somehow thought not, probably not "impressive" enough for you...


    Stands alone:
    Self explanatory - if you have questions on the meaning, either implied or implicit, PM me. No point in cluttering up the thread with third grade stuff...

    PS - Just for clarity, the emphasized bit is an attempt to elicit a response from you, on point!
     

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