Somebody Calls this Christian?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Woody, Mar 27, 2005.

  1. Woody Musical Creationist Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,419
    So MW, How do you explain Saul of Tarsus living at the same time as Jesus? Doesn't this put a big hole in the Pauline conspiracy? As I understood it, you claimed Paul/Saul of Tarsus corrupted the bible after the Gnostic Gospels were written. Yet Paul lived before the Gnostic Gospels were written. Big problem here -- I agree that the real thing came first and the fake came later.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Silas asimovbot Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,116
    I think it's pretty clear that Paul had knowledge of what Christ said. First of all, he persecuted Christians, so presumably he knew what it was they said that he felt was heresy. Secondly he did absolutely irrefutably know many of the original Apostles.

    He may have lied about what Jesus said, he may have misinterpreted it, he may have made up a lot of it. But you can't really argue that he didn't know what Jesus said.

    I have to read up about the Gnostic Gospels which I did think was 2nd Century (I could be entirely wrong), but I have read what has been reconstructed of Q, the famous "source" sayings gospel. There are elements of Gnosticism, Stoicism and Cynicism (not to be confused with being "cynical", Cynics were wandering hermits who gave away all their possessions and lived on their wits).
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,346
    Woody: So MW, How do you explain Saul of Tarsus living at the same time as Jesus?
    ************
    M*W: Paul was born about 10 AD. He didn't live in the area Jesus did.
    ************
    Woody: Doesn't this put a big hole in the Pauline conspiracy?
    *************
    M*W: No. Paul never knew Jesus. That's been well documented.
    *************
    Woody: As I understood it, you claimed Paul/Saul of Tarsus corrupted the bible after the Gnostic Gospels were written.
    *************
    M*W: I said that Paul's Epistles were written before the GOSPELs. The Gospels were written after Paul's beheading, but his Epistles greatly influenced the Gospel writers.
    *************
    Woody: Yet Paul lived before the Gnostic Gospels were written. Big problem here -- I agree that the real thing came first and the fake came later.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    *************
    M*W: Paul lived from circa 10-68 AD. I've attached a reference dating the various writings. Paul lived before, during and after the gnostic texts.

    However, I will concede that Pauline Christianity was not a unique invention by Paul. All he did was take ancient pagan myths and created the story of Jesus around them -- that is if Paul, himself, was nothing more than a fictional character.

    http://www.christianwritings.com
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,346
  8. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

    Messages:
    5,874
    Paul also doesn't appear to mention "Nazareth" in his writings. He mentions Jesus, but there's no evidence that the "Nazareth" part wasn't simply added later in the writing of the bible when they came up with it.
     
  9. Woody Musical Creationist Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,419
    MW said: The Gospels were written after Paul's beheading, but his Epistles greatly influenced the Gospel writers.

    Woody says: OK, Are you saying Paul told Matthew , Mark, Luke, and John what they "really" witnessed, and then those four disciples collaborated to produce a consistent fabrication of the gospel account?

    Skinwalker said: Paul also doesn't appear to mention "Nazareth" in his writings. He mentions Jesus, but there's no evidence that the "Nazareth" part wasn't simply added later in the writing of the bible when they came up with it.

    Woody says: Jesus lived in Nazareth because Joseph was a carpenter in Nazareth. If anything it destroyed Jesus's credibility with the pharisees. Bethlehem is the required birthplace specified in the OT scriptures. Jesus was born in Bethlehem, but grew up in Egypt (to escape Herod's slaughter of the innocents) and later his father returned to Nazareth after Herod 1st died.
     
  10. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,758
    Lol Woody, get real.
     
  11. Silas asimovbot Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,116
    Apparently there is considerable doubt that Nazareth even existed at the time of Christ's birth. There are no contemporary references, and it is possible that the earliest references to Christ's home town were to Gennesaret, on the shores of the Sea of Galillee.
     
  12. Woody Musical Creationist Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,419
    S/L:

    Where are the four gospels inconsistent with one another? I've studied them closely. How many times the rooster crowed? What was written above Jesus on the cross? Who the real father was according to jewish naming conventions? I'm ready to hear a "real" example.
     
  13. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,346
    Woody: MW said: The Gospels were written after Paul's beheading, but his Epistles greatly influenced the Gospel writers.

    Woody says: OK, Are you saying Paul told Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John what they "really" witnessed, and then those four disciples collaborated to produce a consistent fabrication of the gospel account?
    *************
    M*W: No, that is not what I'm saying, although I find it amusing that you continually profess not to understand what I've stated. Please read the following:

    http://www.harrington-sites.com/History.htm

    "Luke/Acts constitutes approximately one-quarter of the New Testament, and is the source of much christian tradition, including the Pentecost, Jesus' 50 day post-resurrection sojourn, and the 'ascension.' Like 'Matthew,' 'Luke' constitutes little more than a later revision of 'Mark,' and whereas 'Matthew' copies about 90% of 'Mark,' 'Luke' copies about 50%. Both 'Matthew' and 'Luke' use a second, non-Marcan source, known to scholars as "Q." The book of ACTS is generally agreed to be have been written by the same hand as 'Luke,' whose real identity is unknown, although we can easily eliminate the possibility that it was 'Luke,' the 'beloved physician' mentioned by Paul. That attibution dates to the very late second century, and is the result of speculation on the part of early church fathers. The first two verses of 'Luke' itself constitutes an admission by the author that she is 'setting in order' previously existing accounts, and not by any means composing an original work, and, as will be seen, the author of 'Luke/Acts' had only a cursory knowledge of Paul's life at best."

    "Even more striking than this, however, is 'Luke's' unprecedented emphasis on the role of women in the gospel story. Randel Helms has recently argued, I think conclusively as is possible based solely on internal evidence, that the author of 'Luke' and ACTS was actually a woman (1997, 65)."
    ---
    Before Acts was completed, Paul and 'Luke' had a bitter falling out regarding the content of the Acts. See the email communication below from the foremost expert on Paul of Tarsus:
    ---
    "One topic which I argue Luke borrowed from Paul was the institution of the Eucharist at the Last Supper (for detailed argument on this see my article 'Paul and the Eucharist', New Testament Studies, vol. 37, 1991, pp. 247-267; also PAUL AND HELLENISM, SCM Press, 1991, ch. 4). Paul's account of this in
    is I Cor. 11 is undoubtedly the earliest, and the eucharistic aspects of the accounts of the Last Supper in the Synoptic Gospels (totally missing in the Fourth Gospel's account of the Last Supper) show evidence of conflicting strategies of adaptation, Luke's Long Text being the most complex."

    "That the Gospel accounts are derived from Paul, not vice versa, was argued cogently earlier by Loisy and Lietzmann, who interpreted Paul as saying that he derived his account from a vision of the risen Jesus, not from the leaders of the Jerusalem Church. In fact, the evidence of both Acts and the Didache is that the Jerusalem Church did not practise the Eucharist."

    "In more recent times, Joachim Jeremias marshalled a complex argument against Loisy and Lietzmann on this topic (THE EUCHARISTIC WORDS OF JESUS, London, 1966). I argue, however, in PAUL AND HELLENISM that there are many flaws in Jeremias's argument."

    Dr.Hyam Maccoby
    Research Professor
    Centre for Jewish Studies
    University of Leeds
    Leeds.LS2
    Direct lines: tel. +44 (0)113 268 1972
    fax +44 (0)113 225 9927
    e-mail: h.z.maccoby at leeds.ac.uk
    hyam.maccoby at btopenworld.com
    ---
    Skinwalker said: Paul also doesn't appear to mention "Nazareth" in his writings. He mentions Jesus, but there's no evidence that the "Nazareth" part wasn't simply added later in the writing of the bible when they came up with it.
    *************
    M*W: Jesus was not from Nazareth, he was more accurately called a "Nazorite" or "Naasene" by title and not location.
    *************
    Woody: Jesus lived in Nazareth because Joseph was a carpenter in Nazareth. If anything it destroyed Jesus's credibility with the pharisees. Bethlehem is the required birthplace specified in the OT scriptures. Jesus was born in Bethlehem, but grew up in Egypt (to escape Herod's slaughter of the innocents) and later his father returned to Nazareth after Herod 1st died.
    *************
    M*W: There is no proof that Jesus lived in "Nazareth." The title "carpenter" did not mean one who works with wood, it was an esoteric title denoting one who held secret knowledge, like a "master craftsman," for example. In fact, good wood for building was scarce in the region. Calling Jesus "the carpenter's son" implies that Jesus was an initiate of a grand master who imparted him with hidden knowledge.

    Further, Jesus wasn't necessarily "born" in Bethlehem. I believe I've read that Bethlehem didn't exist during Jesus' time.

    Jesus wasn't "born" of a virgin, he was "born" of Paul's imagination and understanding of earlier pagan myths. All Paul did was take those earlier pagan myths and give them a new name -- Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews.
     
  14. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,758
    Time of jesus death, jesus last words, how judas died, who went to the tomb, who was at the tomb, etc etc etc yada yada yada.

    "Studied them closely" heh?
     
  15. Woody Musical Creationist Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,419
    sl: "Studied them closely" heh?

    woody: Yep, where's the problem?

    jesus last words: "it is finished"

    how judas died: hung himself, limb broke, and bowels gushed out.

    who went to the tomb: jesus went to rich man's tomb.

    who was at the tomb: Roman Guards, Mary Magdalene, Angel, Jesus, and others (when specifically do you want to know?)

    Time of jesus death: Certainly after the ninth hour, they didn't have wristwatches back then, you know.
     
  16. Woody Musical Creationist Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,419
    S/L: "Studied them closely" heh?

    woody: Yep, where's the problem?

    jesus last words: "it is finished"

    how judas died: hung himself, limb broke, and bowels gushed out.

    who went to the tomb: jesus went to rich man's tomb.

    who was at the tomb: Roman Guards, Mary Magdalene, Angel, Jesus, and others (when specifically do you want to know?)

    Time of jesus death: Certainly after the ninth hour, they didn't have wristwatches back then, you know.
     
  17. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,758
    MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
    MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

    JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

    ---

    JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.
    JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

    ---

    Matt.5:1,2: "And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...."
    Luke6:17,20: "And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people...came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said..."

    ---

    Matt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."
    Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

    John19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

    ---

    "And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (Matt. 27:5)
    "And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)

    ---

    ACT 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
    ACT 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

    ---

    MAT 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
    MAT 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
    MAT 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
    MAT 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
    MAR 16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.

    LUK 24:4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:

    JOH 20:12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

    ---

    vinegar - Matthew 27:34
    wine with myrrh - Mark 15:23

    ---

    And of course let's not forget 3rd hour, 6th hour, 9th hour. I appreciate that they did not own clocks, but unless you're telling me they were complete simpletons, it wouldn't have been that much of an issue.

    "Consistent"? Lol, give it up.
     
  18. Woody Musical Creationist Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,419
    MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
    MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

    Woody: Salome joined them after the sabbath was past apparantly with the spices.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

    Woody: She returned to the tomb a second time and she was the first to see Jesus. (Mark 16:9)

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.
    JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

    Woody: This is consistent with Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    Jesus was made even lower than the angels when he came to earth, because he took on mortality.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ---

    Matt.5:1,2: "And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...."
    Luke6:17,20: "And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people...came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said..."

    Woody:Apparantly He started on the plain with the healings and so-forth, then he went up on the mountainside to do the oration to an audience of thousands of people without the aid of a microphone. In another one of His speeches, they put Jesus in a boat so everyone could hear him. Sound travels much better over water or down a mountainside from an elevated position. How else do you suppose he could speak audibly to this many people including babies?

    ---

    Matt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

    Woody: more to follow -- this is not the last verse because he cried again. You have to remember that the crucifiction causes a person to suffocate to death so any kind of utterance is done with difficulty.

    Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

    John19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

    Woody: Jesus said both, but I don't know which came last. Perhaps he said them both in the same sentence, it would certainly make sense either way.

    ---

    "And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (Matt. 27:5)
    "And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)

    WoodY: Either the tree limb or the rope broke when he jumped off the cliff to hang himself. He fell into the valley below and his guts busted out. Ironically, Judas couldn't do anything right, even his own suicide.

    ---

    ACT 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
    ACT 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

    Woody: Saul was the only person that understood the words that were spoken. The rest of them were confused about the whole thing. Some thought it was a voice others thought it was thunder.

    ---

    MAT 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
    MAT 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
    MAT 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
    MAT 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
    MAR 16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.

    Woody: ok there was initially at least one angel outside and at least one human appearing angel inside.

    LUK 24:4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:

    Woody: These were angels that appeared as men, as they did in Sodom. There were at least two and perhaps even three.

    JOH 20:12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

    Woody: This happened on the second trip, after Peter came by the tomb. When Mary first saw Jesus she did not recognize Him.

    ---

    vinegar - Matthew 27:34
    wine with myrrh - Mark 15:23

    Woody: The purpose of the concoction was to take the edge off the pain. They used whatever Romans use in executions. As I understand it, there was even some gall mixed in. Some of these elements he received by tasting and some he did not. He went for maximum pain.

    ---

    S/L: And of course let's not forget 3rd hour, 6th hour, 9th hour. I appreciate that they did not own clocks, but unless you're telling me they were complete simpletons, it wouldn't have been that much of an issue.

    Woody: I don't see a big deal about hours. For someone that has a 200+ million year error in your evolutionary time clock and calls it a "minor detail", it sounds kind of funny, even absurd, that you would nitpick over a few hours at the crucifiction.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    ------------

    S/L: "Consistent"? Lol, give it up.

    Woody: And what will you do if you are wrong about Jesus? Nobody will be laughing then.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2005
  19. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,346
    Woody: "how judas died: hung himself, limb broke, and bowels gushed out."
    *************
    M*W: Woody, you have proven to us that you don't intend to communicate on this forum. It has been documented, and I have listed references, that Judas was crucified, his legs were broken, and he was THROWN over a cliff to his death. Why is it so important to you to believe that Judas committed suicide?

    If you're going to remain on this forum and keep on topic, you're going to need to do some serious reading which you obviously have never done.
     
  20. Woody Musical Creationist Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,419
    MW: It has been documented, and I have listed references, that Judas was crucified, his legs were broken, and he was THROWN over a cliff to his death. If you're going to remain on this forum and keep on topic, you're going to need to do some serious reading which you obviously have never done.

    Woody: Oh, give me a break! I quoted from the bible. The Gnostic Gospels are the church's first documented heresy -- is that the trash you want me to read instead? Why would anyone crucify Judas anyway? He was the inside man to get to Jesus. Did he not betray Jesus with a kiss? Who do you think the Pharisees arrested, Judas? Why should they, he was their best man? Jesus is the one they were after. Let's hear your explanation.
     
  21. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,832
    Sorry I did not see this before.

    In which case my knowledge is based (fundamentally) on what this somebody told me about metacognition. Hence if somebody told me Allah was the one true God, then my knowledge would be based on this.

    But Christians say the Spirit is responsible for "true" knowledge of God.

    And then I wonder, just who told them about 'the Spirit'. God, or man?

    The standard provided by God and not man.
     
  22. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,346
    Woody: Oh, give me a break! I quoted from the bible.
    *************
    M*W: Well, obviously, that's where your problem in not understanding anything lies.
    *************
    Woody: The Gnostic Gospels are the church's first documented heresy -- is that the trash you want me to read instead?
    *************
    M*W: The GGs told a much different story than what the early church fathers fabricated and forged in the Bible. Everything that opposed what Paul wrote and what they created some 400 years AFTER Jesus, was considered heresy. The fact of the matter is the GGs are a lot more truthful than the Bible. Paul claims in the NT that a man, a rabbi named Jesus, was the sacrifice and redemption for all mankind, but when Jesus lived and died in the NT, he was not considered divine as professed by those early church fathers who gave him the distinction of divinity in the fourth century AD. It's all moot anyway, because the whole idea of monotheistic religion is nothing more than a myth.
    *************
    Woody: Why would anyone crucify Judas anyway? He was the inside man to get to Jesus. Did he not betray Jesus with a kiss? Who do you think the Pharisees arrested, Judas? Why should they, he was their best man? Jesus is the one they were after. Let's hear your explanation.
    *************
    M*W: I've already posted my answer to this, but here I go again. The "Apostles" were not a group of kind, peace-loving, gentlemen. At the time the Apostles followed Jesus, he was not divine. They took care not to alert the Romans to any suspicious activity. They were a political terrorist faction of which Judas was the chief scribe.

    Simon Zelotes was the leader of the group (not Jesus). His name "Zelotes" was taken on by the Apostles and they were called the "Zealots," a group of militant freedom fighters out to overthrow the Romans. To the Romans, however, the Zealots were nothing more than common outlaws even though they were men of note: priests, teachers and scribes. During their mission to perform miracles and "heal" people, some were physicians, so the miracles that Jesus may have performed were not all that amazing.

    Judas, the chief scribe, was responsible for having the Dead Sea Scrolls produced. Judas was a warlord at Qumran, more technically, a hit-man. Judas was only second in authority to Simon Zelotes. In some writings including the gospels, Judas was also called Theudas.

    The leader of this small band of Jewish terrorists, Simon Zelotes, led an unsuccessful revolt against Pontius Pilate and was executed by Herod. Judas, none to happy with the way things were going, was now a fugitive, and Jesus was of no use to him. Their terrorist political party was losing ground, and Judas was trapped in their web and was of no political use to their new leadership.

    Jesus, who supported the newly elected leader of the group, Jonathan, angered both Judas and Simon the Cyrene, and they was powerless to do anything about it. Judas had decided to side with whomever was the most politically valuable to him, and he sided with Simon the Cyrene who was also against their new leader Jonathan.

    The Last Supper (Passover Seder/Vernal Equinox) did not take place in Jerusalem but in Qumran where Judas was the local warlord and in charge of the dinner arrangements. When everyone was seated, Judas left the room. The Passover meal continued until late that night when the apostles left to make their sleeping arrangements. With the secretive help of Simon the Cyrene, Judas arrived with the Roman soldiers. They betrayed Jesus because of his close affiliation with Jonathan, and because they knew full well that Judas knew he could easily be turned over to the Roman authorities as an insurrectionist.

    Interestingly, as it turned out, Jonathan sided with his enemy Judas and assisted with Jesus's capture! When the buck was passed, Judas returned with 30 pieces of silver to give to the priests (not the Roman soldiers). The "30 pieces of silver" is merely symbolic with a reference to OT Zech. 11:13. Judas had set the stage for his own demise. It seems that Jonathan, whom Judas had formed an alliance with, ended up betraying Judas!

    So there they were, three men who were facing crucifixion on the Passover. The Romans were burning daylight, so they finally got the three hung on the cross about Noon where they hung for only three hours. The sabbath was coming in three hours (6 PM), so it was time to take the three men down. Hurriedly, the Romans who tried to follow the Jewish religious customs as long as it was convenient, broke the legs of Simon the Cyrene and Judas, but didn't have time to break Jesus's legs. Jesus was lifeless but in a coma due to having been given a sponge wet with vinegar and snake venom which rendered him unconscious. Then the three were quickly taken down from their crucifi, and all were still alive. Jesus was given an antidote to the snake venom, Simon the Cyrene's broken legs were attended to, and Judas was thrown over a cliff to his death, and thus, ends the story of Judas.
    ---
    http://www.redbay.com/ekklesia/judas.htm

    The Greek word translated "hanged himself" is the word apanchomai which is used in Greek literature to mean choking or squeezing one's self as with great emotion or grief. In English we have a similar expression when we say that someone is "all choked up." We do not mean that they have died. We mean that they are overcome with emotion. Judas cast down the pieces of silver in the temple and left doubling himself over with grief. Perhaps Judas had hoped that his betrayal of Jesus Christ for thirty pieces of silver would result in action to re-establish the kingdom under leadership of the Christ. When he saw that Jesus Christ was condemned to death he was overwhelmed with emotional hurt and he came and threw the thirty pieces of silver down in the temple and left doubled over with grief.
    ---
    Another viewpoint:

    http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/judas.htm
    ---
    M*W: The whole story of Jesus is a myth, so argument over the minor details is not worth the time. The symbology of the myth is that "Judas" represented Judea and its betrayal of one of its own people. I don't give a flying fuck what your bible says.
     
  23. cole grey Hi Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,999
    MW,

    Just wanted to be clear...
    you believe that the story in the bible AND the story you represent above as what "really happened" to judas and jesus, are myths?

    So one myth says, the raven brought a branch to begin the creation of land, and another says God spoke, and why does it matter which you apprehend, as long as you find something that speaks to you in the symbols?

    How can you argue about which "myth" of jesus is more "true"?
     

Share This Page