Some facts about guns in the US

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by James R, Dec 17, 2012.

  1. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Black market criminals tend to vote Republican, in the US. Organized crime is generally conservative, politically.

    Gun confiscation from citizens is as likely to be proposed by right wing authoritarians in the US (police, the imposers of martial law, the auxiliary forces such as Blackwater after Katrina, the enforcers of Jim Crow and similar legislation, etc) as left wing authoritarians.

    You trivialize depression and suicide by such cavalier treatment. As the numbers you have posted make clear, suicides are seldom impulsive in that shallow way you fantasize - remember the posted stat showing that suicides by gun rise in the weeks immediately after gun purchase?

    Suicides in the US normally obtain and maintain guns to commit suicide with, in preparation, much as they learn to make nooses or breathe gas, arrange times and places they will not be interrupted, give away valued possessions, find the best place on the best bridge or building to jump off, choose the place and circumstances of their car crash, etc. A person who is not planning to kill themselves with their gun is at very little risk of impulsively doing so. That ain't how it happens.
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2015
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  3. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    It is nonsensical, yes. It is also exactly equivalent in its statistical support , directly parallel, to the statistically supported claim that the average American has a 1% chance of dying by gunshot. We have in hand two examples of bad statistical reasoning, generating absurd conclusions.
    Calculating the chances of an American getting breast cancer by averaging in the men and women together yields an essentially meaningless number. Using that number to, say, support a recommendation that everyone get mammograms after age 50, would compound that error.

    For a man or woman to fear breast cancer in proportion to that "average" risk, to arrange their behavior and distribute their resources and manage their community's politics or infrastructure as if that "average" risk applied to them or anybody, would be foolish. There isn't much use for that number - it's an invalid statistic in almost any application.

    Meaningful interpretation of the arithmetical mean of a multimodal distribution is never simple, and often simply impossible.
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  5. Anew Life isn't a question. Banned

    In 1962 work began to change weaponry cartridges into paint cartirdges, the matter wasn't wrong.
    Perhaps Bic pen considering the value that life should have regard of writing; at the invent of Bic (stick) pens decided to follow through with what some knew would personally relieve many.

    remarking to iceaaura now: It is unfair that human beings are and became so committed to medical sciences which demand their invented typology's based on electronic perception. One cares that complete body is complete, as far as breast cancer is concerned many had ascertained that the condition was merely tension. Really logically looking at the human medical sciences and language sciences, all they have really become is illicit somewhat grotesque playgrounds that get approval and encouragement due to familial socialization; terrifyingly often it is what became young people whom chose to take their financial fears and hope easy on call positions their radio/networkers which turned out as attention networking of award that parents from 1962 and many young people would be astonished actually still persists..the sideline pleasures afforded, and or the radio/language usary sciences limit the parents in variable mean & many see themselves in the luxury of on call doctordom or right/wrongly where they are ploying on technological/radio networking to avert professionalisms from ending their harmfulness which they don't and didn't discipline themselves out of due to "fame distractions in and of their realism or workingpeople in it to experience command. It is a strife that beings actually choose to defer from disagreeing with the medical industry that chooses to defer from backing off of their commitments, with solutions of simple life style rectification instead of prideing the so called figure eight advances of that have turned into a variable "live viewer purgatory with our technological advancements. Beings whom love all the effects of what they have determined as more exact because it seems''''cleaner than life.....'what technology gives..., stealing themselves farther and farther away from simple trust of what life really is may have began due to common social error... and curiosity of technological exploration turned into sensational agreement in all the wrong ways, and such is evident looking at how literally all people in some way or another whether having had someone taken from their family literally or figureatively due to the technological scientists that have misused their friends & family & businesses in haste for often financial security. And the escapeisms after a certain age have created odd interest in garnering young people to survive the sort of networking described above. And the means come up with as advantage never do suffice for it is that scence is lost in the sensualist what really is a sort of what became warfare embarrassingly at begin of minor family disagreements,.

    Anyway the 'continuum of good is a beautiful simple beginning, that as people we really can afford to behave for:knowing that one shouldn't change others, that people do change, and that one can change oneself from what one by dynamic cause ended up hasting in... yes I have been victimized with much of whom I would never be, what town radioists query dramatized what family I had, what educational opportune I could have become with, loss of a sister due to their mood alterance attentions.. awareness of the victimization gives a person greater liberty even though what had been stolen from ones life and opportune of life can never be redeemed..i choose worthfully to see my place as whom I would have been without their demands having taken from my life or those of my family, I see as innocent in what can be; I actually inspected our behavioral help professionalisms and found the sorrow of the pill industry and sought to write a book that perhaps people on the edges of these networks stop it, knowing what the seesaw of variable substance upkeep and diversion doesn't give for beings that choose to defer from disciplining themselves out of the sexx drugs music .tv .movies alcohol, strange art,dramatic books, possessed sectarianism [as an escapism], even upkeep counseling that doesn't graduate people evenly yet humors with the same analytical annoyances that lead people to seek escape, strange family pride that bothers around as if it's literal farm ranch is going to be taken from them at any time learning every language possible in order to protect a ranch which doesn't even exist,,, Apparently there are beings whom choose a peekish cavelike stance of meticulating with whatever they do, anmd are destroying human simplicity and value of basic interpersonal capacity which has damaged human beingness and need let go with integrity. Life is single, it isn't a stimulation game, yucky.
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  7. billvon Valued Senior Member

    I certainly choose peekish cavelike stances of meticulating when faced with mood alterance attentions!
  8. Bells Staff Member

    I am fairly certain that this did not come out as you intended or as you imagined it.

    Anew, I have said this numerous times now... Your sentences and words make no sense. You make no sense.
  9. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    None of This Had to Happen

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    While the world is rife with human tragedy, sometimes shocking inevitability becomes the worst thing you might read all week:

    "This sad example is what we get when we have folks who decide it's their responsibility to use their guns to redress their grievances," Milwaukee Police Chief Edward Flynn said Thursday at a news conference.

    Mayor Tom Barrett earlier in the week called Brown's shooting an "assassination."

    "Someone got angry," Barrett said. "Someone took a gun and basically assassinated this gentleman."


    This is the story: Man driving down street. Toddler attempting to cross the street. Man strikes toddler with vehicle, stops, gets out to check on the child, who did not survive. Toddler's fifteen year-old brother, discovering what happened, runs for help. Toddler's uncle shoots driver, accidentally shoots his own nephew in the process.

    Four days later, with police closing in, the uncle shoots himself.

    I don't know, "Praise Jesus!" just doesn't seem to work, here. Nor do hosannas unto God Most High in His Wisdom.

    None of this had to happen.


    Ehlke, Gretchen. "Uncle Suspected In Twin Killings Commits Suicide After Toddler Is Run Over". The Huffington Post. 16 April 2015. 16 April 2015.

    Edit note: 18 April 2015, 02.17 PDT―Clarify death of toddler, correct typographical error.
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2015
  10. Photizo Ambassador/Envoy Valued Senior Member


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  11. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member


    A letter from a pre-kindergarten teacher in Arlington, a Virginia suburb of Washington, DC:

    I had to prep my pre-kindergarten students for a lockdown drill.

    “Remember that activity when we all get in the closet and pretend we’re not even there, so our principal can’t find us?” I chose my words carefully. With 4 and 5-year olds, your choice of words can mean everything. “Activity,” not “game,” because we laugh during games and I can’t risk laughter. I don’t say “quiet,” because I can’t risk them shushing one another while they are crammed together, practically sitting in each other’s laps. This drill requires not merely quiet, but complete silence... as silent as children who are not there at all.

    My body language must be just so--too much smile and they’ll ask questions and laugh; too much severity and they’ll balk, rebel or be fearful. Usually these drills last 3-4 minutes, but this time it ran much longer. Last spring one ran 13 minutes—the time in which a single gunman with his effortlessly obtained XM15-E2S rifle and 26 rounds in each of 2 additional magazines could potentially kill 78 of us, even considering the time it takes to reload.

    I am shaking, hoping the children will not notice.

    Instead of controlling guns and "inconveniencing" those who would use them, we are rounding up and silencing an entire generation of children, not to mention terrifying those who care for them. We are giving away precious time to teach and learn, which we spend cowering in fear.

    It’s time to stop rehearsing our deaths and start screaming.

    Launa Hall, 20141102
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2015
  12. billvon Valued Senior Member

    In the 1920's, it was fear that the newly ascendant blacks would rise up and kill the heretofore-protected whites.
    In the 1940's, it was the fear drilled into every schoolchild that Hitler and Tojo might win; the papers were full of depictions of the horrors that would bring and the need for sacrifice.
    In the 1960's, it was "duck and cover", telling children in no uncertain terms that their deaths were mere moments away, with their survival enhanced only slightly by the meager protection of their desks.

    Now it's gun drills. Same fears, different focus. You want to scream? Join the teachers who have been screaming for a century.
  13. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    I can't wait for this explanation.
  14. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Many of us are still surprised that this didn't happen--especially in the South, where lynchings occurred with some regularity. As we War Babies grew up in the 1950s, watching Eisenhower integrate the schools as black Americans celebrated peacefully while white Americans (again, especially in the South) continued to object violently, we began to suspect that Afro-Americans must be the most peaceful people on earth.
    The USA managed to stay out of that war (except, of course, to make lots of profit by supplying weapons and other military commodities to the Allies) until Pearl Harbor. At this point in history, you have to take into account the fact that the USA had been attacked by a foreign military on its own soil--the first time since the War of 1812. It's not unreasonable to give a population a little slack after that happens. As for the Germans, they had sent submarines to our Atlantic coast in WWI, so it was not foolish to assume that they would do the same thing again.
    Or as one comedian put it (years later), "The safest place to hide was under a big slab of kindling wood."
    But we have considerable evidence that guns are a legitimate fear. With 20,000 of us killed by them every year <asterisk, see below>, that means the average
    American has a one percent probability that the cause of his death will be a gunshot. This is the same risk as being killed in a road accident, and look at what we've done to reduce that risk since rear-view mirrors debuted almost a century ago: shatter-proof windows, drunk driving laws, turn signals, side-view mirrors, lap belts, shoulder belts, limited-access divided highways, Botts dots, impact-absorbing bumpers, ABS, rumble strips, air bags and (perhaps within your lifetime if not mine) self-driving cars.

    Meanwhile, what have we done to reduce our risk of being killed by a bullet? The statistics tell us that this probability has, in fact, been slowly but steadily dropping over the years. But this has nothing to do with laws or technology: it's simply a reflection of our aging population. Older people are less likely to commit gun crimes, to settle their disputes with firearms, or do something stupid like store a gun where their grandchildren can find it.

    <Asterisk> One member chided me for presenting this as a statistic. He said, judging from news reports, that Afro-Americans are far more likely to be killed by gunshots than Euro-Americans. My response is:
    1. Here in the Washington DC region, where black people comprise a much larger percentage of the population than in the nation as a whole, white people are nonetheless being shot down at a steady pace. Last year in the mall across the street from my office, a teenager walked in with a shotgun hidden in a duffle bag, and shot up a clothing store--white shooter, white victims.
    2. You've probably all read about the Virginia Tech massacre a few years ago--predominantly white victims, although the perp was of Korean ancestry.
    3. Not to mention the Beltway Snipers, who began their rein of terror in the year I arrived here--again, predominantly white victims, although in this case the shooters were, indeed, black.
    4. Adam Lanza was white, as were most (if not all) of his victims.
    5. George Zimmerman is white and his victim was black.
    I stand by my statistics.
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2015
  15. Photizo Ambassador/Envoy Valued Senior Member

  16. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Agreed. But keep in mind the average deaths per year from the following:
    School shootings 8
    School buses (ages 5-18) 21
    School sports 50
    Car crashes <12 years old 1000

    So if Launa Hall is screaming over the risks that guns pose her students, I hope she is screaming much more loudly over the much bigger risks posed to her students by sports and buses. (If, of course, her motivation is preventing needless deaths among her pre-kindergarteners.)
  17. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    um no sorry school buses car crashes and school sports are actually much lower risks. the fact they have a higher death toll is do to the higher rate of interaction. your argument is tantamount to say dogs are more lethal to humans than bears because dogs kill more people which while true is highly misleading because interaction rates are so much higher for dogs than bears.. and specifically school shooting the rate of deaths to potential deadly incidents is several orders of magnitude greater than the others.
  18. billvon Valued Senior Member

    No, they create a higher risk of death for students. Sure, the "risk per minute" is far lower playing football than being in a classroom with a gun. But if you want to avoid student deaths, reducing the risks that sports create will save more student's lives.
    But they are not "more lethal" - nor was I arguing that footballs are more lethal than bullets.

    Dogs are more likely to cause your death, but bears are more deadly. However, since your child will interact with dogs far more often than with bears, it would be wise to spend your time teaching them how to protect themselves from dogs, rather than teaching them how to protect themselves from bears. That will save more lives overall.
  19. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    It seems to me that this was largely based on racist paranoia, and generally unfounded. It's kind of like the bully saying he was hitting the other kid because he was afraid the other kid would hit him back.

    Not even Dr. Seuss' wartime propaganda could explain just how the Nazis or Japanese could take and hold the United States of America. To the other, we were at war, and we were specifically invited.

    And this was in large part our own society's doing. One thing your examples about the Second War and the Cold War overlook is why teachers were saying these things; it was part of the curriculum.

    I disagree with this statement; while the others were scary myths motivated by other causes, this is really happening.

    There's a difference, you know.

    There is a difference between doing one's job according to a formal job description and doing one's job according to the principles of the work. I think you know this. And I think you are well capable of recognizing the difference between Jim Crow-era fearmongering and the fact that actual school shootings are taking place.

    After all, in some places, the fear expressed was that traditionally-empowered whites would continue to treat their fellow human beings like shit for stupid reasons pertaining to the color of each other's skin. Not nearly so alarming, is it, depending on who one decides matters? In the end, the prevailing fear was untrue; the denigrated fear continues to prove true even today.

    Sometimes, reality really does bite.
  20. Capracus Valued Senior Member

    Chicago PD Firearm Training Video.

    A Judge Just Let A Cop Walk After A Deadly Shooting. Legal Experts Say The Reasoning Is ‘Incredible.’

    According to Judge Dennis Porter, the intentional act of shooting over one’s shoulder into a crowd of people cannot be both intentional and reckless. As if behavior is only comprised of singular elements. Did Judge Porter intentionally compose an illogical legal opinion? Or was it just recklessness? I say both.
  21. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

    Or it might simply be an indication that your population is rising at a faster rate than the incidence of death by gun?
    Statistics are only what you make them. Anyone can quote statistics, and most will, if those statistics can be shown to bear out an opinion.
    A more complete analysis will be made by those who have the ability to consider more than what they might actually want to. Unfortunately, we don't see that much on the 'net.

    Guns aren't the problem. America is the problem.
    Band-aids don't do too much to stop infection. But they do have a way of making people believe the problem has been solved.

    Goodonya. Sometimes, though, it's a little like watching a drunk guy trying to stand up outside the pub.
  22. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

    How would you know?
  23. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Right. And the critical word - "largely." There were some attacks by blacks against whites. These were hugely overplayed by anti-equal-rights groups who used fear to try to accomplish their goals.
    Agreed. But they didn't need to. They just took the (few) attacks by the Japanese against the US and again overplayed them to garner support for the war. This was during a time that expressing an opinion against the draft could send you to jail - the US took its propaganda VERY seriously.
    Yes, it is. So were the other ones. All three were rare. And all too often, all three are used by fearmongers to drum up support for their political causes.

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