Some facts about guns in the US

The bottom line is that the total number of people that die from motor vehicle accidents far exceeds that of the number of people that die from firearm accidents.

Do you dispute that?

Do you dispute that if saving lives is the name of the game, that we should get rid of the things that kill the most people first, ie motor vehicles?

If saving the most lives is important to you, why do you try to get rid of guns before cars? It just doesn't make sense to me. Unless of course you're just a selfish dickhead that only cares about himself? That you don't have a need for a gun, so nobody should need one, right? Because you have fear of guns everyone needs to get rid of them? Is that how it works?

BTW, Did ya hear about the two hundred and some people that are missing, that were on an airplane that's missing? Dangerous stuff right there. When was the last time you heard of two hundred some people getting killed in one swoop with a gun??? No? I'll borrow your gun ban logic for this one, we need to ban airplanes, they kill too many people!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_commercial_aircraft

 

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What about people who live in isolated farms and houses?
Would people opposed to gun ownership accept that those people have a justification for owning a gun?
Even in the UK, many people living in such areas would include self protection as a reason for owning a shotgun.
And if you have an intruder on your property, you are quite within your rights to shoot them so long as you fear for your life.

 

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That's an interesting point. There was the case in UK of Tony Martin who shot and killed a man on just such an isolated property and went to jail for, I think, 6 years. There was a big outcry about it.

The trouble is that you have a 'where do you stop' problem. How isolated do you have to be? What other measures could you take? What is the police response? You still have the suicide issue as well as accidents, and then someone might flip and go on a shooting spree. The overall best solution is a ban, really, although I suppose shotguns can be kept for potting birds.

 

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In the Tony Martin case, he was a bit of a fanatic I think.
Or a martyr, depending on your viewpoint.
He wouldn't say that he thought his life was in danger.
If he had, he probably would not have been imprisoned.
His view was that he had a right to shoot someone who had trespassed on his property, even if they were running away from it.
He didn't, and he went to jail for it.
And still would now.

The law changed in the UK after that case to make it plain that if you believe your life to be in danger, you can use appropriate force,
and that includes shotguns.
If you find a frightened 15 year old cowering in your woodshed, you can't go and get your shotgun and pop off a couple of barrels at him.
Would that be OK in the USA?

This is the situation in a country with some of the most strict gun laws in the world.
I wonder whether the anti gun people would like US laws to be even stricter.

Of course, you can't say when applying for the permit that the shotgun is for self protection.
It has to be for sport, or shooting vermin or rabbits etc.

 

I think you're right about the Martin case.

I think there are the other factors to consider too, that I mentioned.

But this is not clear cut. It would probably be at night so how could you tell someone's age, you would have just woken up and would be startled and scared, so you grab the gun and shoot someone who might be a 15 yro. It might be your son coming home late and drunk from a party - that happened in the States, I think. I hear what you're saying, but I think a blanket ban would be best.

 

The Oscar Pretorius defence is that he thought his wife was an intruder.
They must have a similar law in South Africa.


Something which should be taken into consideration is the size of a country like the UK when you compare it with the USA.
Outside conurbations people must protect themselves to some extent.


How did the law change in Australia?
If you live in a remote farm and shoot an intruder with a shotgun could that be justified?

 

I haven't been following it, I'm afraid, and I don't knw what the laws are in SA.

 

It's not something I am paying much attention to either.
Sounds like a good defence though.
How do you disprove it?

 

Crikey, I'm no prosecution lawyer!

I suppose you could try and find out if they'd had some disagreements, or if Pistorius had a history of mis-using guns (I think he has), or if anyone else saw an intruder, or if there was video evidence. Probably there are other lines, I wouldn't know. Listen, I write crime stories but don't ask me to solve the real life stuff!

 

An individual car is definitely more likely to kill one of the neighbors than an individual gun. I'm not sure individual pools are more dangerous to the neighbors, rather than to the family, but they are definitely more dangerous to children than individual guns.

The big US numbers for guns are from a world awash in firearms, pretty much. Pools are far less common. It would be interesting to get some solid stats on ladders, at least the tall ones used to reach roofs; they are famous for sending people to the emergency room, and they are nowhere near as commonly owned and used as firearms. Thing is, they mostly inflict harm on the adult men using them - that doesn't seem to bother people so much.

 

well no but its dishonest as all hell to compare the way you are. their are billions of people to motor vehicle interactions a day in the united states alone( a specific person and specific vehicle near each other. their are only a maybe a couple tens of million gun interactions a day and I'm being very liberal in my estimate in that regard. so even though the absolute number may be greater. the rate of injury is less. the deaths are roughlly equal even though more people deal with cars.

yes because guns kill more people

I'm pretty sure their is alot of stuff that doesn't make sense to you.

you mean like people like you that demand unfettered access to lethal weapons for no reason?

next to nobody needs one. and I'm not afraid of guns just irresponsible people with guns. and people like you who treat weapons as toys.

thats idiotic. your not borrowing my logic your making stuff up to suit your need for a gun. probably to make yourself feel manly

 

Then you are foolish enough that you should not be allowed to own a gun. People like you result in kids being shot and killed because they let them play with their guns. Why not? They are safer than cars!

That's why you should not be allowed to own a gun. Because you can't even see what any moron can see.

 

A ladder is a portable scaffold for doing things high off the ground. If used incorrectly, yes there will be casualties, but it is always accidental. Have you looked at the labels on ladders? They warn specifically about proper use of ladders. And I have never heard of anyone beating someone to death with a ladder.
OTOH, guns are specifically made for killing living things and it requires loading the gun, removing the safety, aiming, and pulling the trigger. It is people who kill other people (or themselves) with guns. Oddly there is not a single safety label on a gun.

To compare USING a gun to using a ladder or travelling a plane is ludicrous. But like driving a car (a projectile), I am in favor of gun licenses. A 30 minute hands-on instruction would probably cut a significant number of gun "accidents".

 

I'm not sure he was being serious.....

 

A Note on the Absurd: Not Quite What Camus Had in Mind

I would agree; this entire line of the discussion is somewhat absurd.

So, this one time, my brother was home from college with a female friend who has never really been a girlfriend; it's a Satanic drug thing you wouldn't understand, or something like that. Well, it's a stoner thing. Anyway ....

She was, of course, weird enough to begin with, as my mother might have seen her all those years ago. And for whatever reason, our friend refused the courtesy of breakfast service, since my mother still maintains the habit of feeding everyone under her roof.

So after our friend gets herself thrown together for the day—and, of course, tokes up—she proceeds to make herself some breakfast. Skillet, glasstop range, egg ... crack! ... and then the egg misfires. Doesn't just miss the skillet, but the entire rangetop as well, landing on our her shoe.

Eggs. The worst part is that such senseless tragedies are entirely preventable. Don't fry while high. Irresponsible egg handling results in countless self-inflicted wounds treated at emergency rooms across the nation.

 

What is the situation in the US when a person keeps a firearm in an insecure place,
and that firearm is then taken by a child who accidentally kills himself or another?
Could the gun owner be prosecuted?

If not, then that is a point where the legislation could be tightened.


@Tiassa
Eggs are dangerous because of the risk of Salmonella.
But your post reminds me of an even bigger threat.
Frying pans. Major cause of burns and household fires.
Ban the Pan!

 

I thought that any laws tightening up the use of guns was off-limits? You could get some real benefit by banning assault weapons or having electronic locks etc, but it's not going to happen.

It's a pity that the same measures can't be put in place as were for tobacco, so that people could sue the gun manufacturers/dealers for each and every homicide carried out using their weapons.

I agree about the pans, damn dangerous things!

 

That is a problem.
The pro-gun side is so entrenched that they see any change as an attack on their rights.
In British law, guns have to be kept in locked steel cabinets when not in use.
These are inspected by the police when the license is granted, and can be repeated at any time, usually with short notice.
This seems a very reasonable requirement to us, but then we aren't mentally living in the Wild West.

Re Pans.
In 1999, an estimated 5,000 deaths, 325,000 hospitalizations and 76 million illnesses were caused by foodborne illnesses within the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foodborne_illness_outbreaks_in_the_United_States#2013
I don't know if 1999 was a particularly bad year, but food is very dangerous.

@Motor Daddy
Would you mind someone inspecting your gun cabinet?

 

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