Some facts about guns in the US

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by James R, Dec 17, 2012.

  1. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    27,534


    I don,t know anyone that owns a firearm of any sort.
    Gun ownership in Australia is pretty rare.


    The only real fact when speaking of firearms is that they kill rather easily quickly and effectively.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2013
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  3. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    In this forum, scoring political points trumps humanity every time.
     
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  5. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    We know they were trained professionals employed by the police department, the very people we see described as "responsible gun owners"

    up until something goes wrong.

    As Michael Moore was not the only one to clearly establish (in the movie "Bowling for Columbine") a lot of people own guns in Canada. Gun ownership per se seems not to be the problem.
     
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  7. leopold Valued Senior Member

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    do you actually believe that?
    yes indeed, a cop decides to strap this LOADED weapon to a display at an elementary school.
    uh, huh.
    right.
    if this is indeed true then the culpability for this sham rests squarely on the shoulders of this, uh, "cop" and he (it?) should be fired and the entire department investigated.
    the schools principal deserves to have his head examined for lunacy.
     
  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    36,962
    But what about the wrist-mounted chainsaw?

    In Jesus' Name

    Is there a parable of Jesus and the boomstick?

    First up from the God Machine this week is an unexpected approach to evangelism: Baptist leaders who believe giving away guns will help fill the pews.

    The Kentucky Baptist Convention wants to "point people to Christ" by giving away guns at Second Amendment Celebrations hosted across the state.

    In the words of spokesman Chuck McAlister the strategy is "outreach to rednecks," and 1,000 people are expected to attend the next event. To lure the nonreligious into the fold, the churches are offering a handgun, shotgun, or long gun as door prizes. Winners attend church for a photo-op with their new gun, but they must pass a background check before collecting their prize.

    McAlister boasted that "unchurched men" in particular will show up because of the gun giveaways, which will in turn offer evangelism opportunities.

    And it's not just in Kentucky. The Rev. John Koletas, pastor of Grace Baptist Church in upstate New York, is raffling off an AR-15 assault rifle at an upcoming service.

    "We're honoring gun owners and hunters," Koletas told the New York Daily News. "And we're being a blessing and a help to people who have been attacked, viciously attacked, by socialists and anti-Christian people – the politicians and the media."


    (Benen)

    Because, you know, the man without enough guns is the modern-day leper, and needs Christ's healing. Or ... something like that.

    After all, when Jesus shows up covered in blood and wielding an AR-15, He's gonna need well-armed legions to enforce His Divine Justice, because that's what the Bible says.

    No, really, welcome to America. These evangelicals really do seem to be looking forward to the end of the world.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Benen, Steve. "This Week in God". MSNBC. March 8, 2014. MSNBC.com. March 8, 2014. http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/week-god-99

    Mantayla, Kyle. "Boykin: When Jesus Comes Back, He'll Be Carrying An AR-15 Assault Rifle". Right Wing Watch. February 19, 2014. RightWingWatch.org. March 8, 2014. http://www.rightwingwatch.org/conte...mes-back-hell-be-carrying-ar-15-assault-rifle
     
  9. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    24,690
    Indeed. This is precisely why they don't give a damn about nuclear waste, global warming, extinctions or Alzheimer's disease. Jesus is coming down any day now. He'll lead the righteous to Heaven, where every day is environmentally perfect and they'll regain their mental faculties, while the rest of us will be sent to a place so dreadful that we won't even notice the absence of polar bears.

    This is the exact opposite of Orthodox Jewish doctrine. They believe that when you die your body just lies there. Some day in the far distant future (perhaps five billion years from now when our sun becomes a red giant and swallows our planet) God will come down, reanimate all the corpses, and direct them to their final reward (Heaven and Hell are not part of Jewish doctrine, as they were not part of Christian doctrine, in their current elaborated and emphasized form, until less than 200 years ago). This is why they don't allow cremation, embalming, autopsies or organ donation: you don't want to wake up with no heart or veins full of chemicals. They avoid talking about the worms that will completely digest your body within a few thousand years.

    Jews believe that your afterlife is the one that you leave to your family and community. They will have to suffer the embarrassment, poverty, or public disdain that you have earned. I like their way better.
     
  10. Arne Saknussemm trying to figure it all out Valued Senior Member

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    1,353
    Imagine there's no heaven. (Hey , that gives me an idea for a song.)
     
  11. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    Fraggle.
    Nearly everything you said in that last post is incorrect.
    I will make three points:

    1. Most US WASP evangelicals are climate change deniers, rather than being couldn't-care-less about it.

    2. Jews believe in the afterlife, but have no dogma about its nature.
    The Jewish religion is focussed on behaviour in this life and making a relationship with the creator.

    3. Christian belief in Hell has decreased rather than increased in the last 200 years.
     
  12. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    The "Responsibility" of Being a "Responsible Gun Owner"

    Another Responsible Gun Owner
    Because ... training ... er ... um ... right.


    The lede, all too familiar, from HuffPo:

    A Pennsylvania state trooper who fatally shot his pregnant wife on Friday afternoon in a small town was cleaning his gun at the time, police say.

    According to the report, Joseph Miller failed to recognize that his personal weapon, a .45-caliber pistol, was loaded when he began disassembling the device in order to clean it. JoAnne Miller, 34, died from a gunshot wound to the head; NBC Philadelphia reports that Mrs. Miller was twenty-three weeeks into a pregnancy expecting the couple's fifth child.

    While her baby girl was delivered, she did not survive, according to investigators. Officials say the child never had a heartbeat and never took a breath after the delivery.

    While it is unclear exactly how the shooting occurred, authorities say a handgun being handled by Miller's husband, a state trooper, somehow went off inside the home, striking her in the head.

    "There is some indication at this point that it was an accidental discharge of the gun," said Montgomery County Assistant District Attorney Kevin Steele. "But that's under investigation at this point. I can't go any further than that."

    This is a particularly sore spot; the phrase "responsible gun owner" has no real meaning outside political slogans. One would expect that the responsible gun owner, as such, would know whether the heater is hot.

    Or, at least, one ought to know where their gun is. That, at least, is the first thing to mind when reading about the death of Carmen Dominiguez:

    A Chicago thrift store worker died after a handgun hidden in a donated item of clothing went off and the bullet hit the woman in the chest, police said.

    Carmen Dominguez, 54, was sorting through clothing with a fellow colleague at a Unique Thrift Store in Chicago, when she was fatally shot in the chest at 9:42 a.m. on Friday, a Chicago Police Department spokesman said.

    The unidentified male coworker found a sock with something heavy inside, and emptied the contents into his hand, police said. The object turned out to be a .22 caliber handgun that went off and hit Dominguez in the chest.

    Dominguez was taken to Christ Hospital in serious condition and later died from her injuries, police said.

    "Preliminary investigation reveals it was an accidental discharge of a firearm," the Chicago Police Department's Michael Sullivan told ABC News.


    (Fields)

    Of course, this is Chicago, a fact that for speculative purposes lowers the chance that this gun was accidentally donated by a "responsible gun owner", but the tale comes on the heels of a rather unsettling personal experience.

    Recently, there was a serious freak-out in the family when accusations emerged that someone was using heroin. While the heroin accusation itself has writhed to deathly stillness in the glaring light of facts—no tracks where there should be—there is still something exceptionally bizarre going on.

    In the middle of that, however, is the question of a firearm.

    A mentally unstable accused drug addict in possession of a .38 revolver belonging to her father.

    "Well, I think I took it back after that ...."

    It's an old episode involving a drunken mother threatening to shoot the father of her child. With that very gun. In trying to mitigate everyone's concern, the registered owner of the gun claimed to have taken it back. Through intervening years, though, hints have arisen suggesting the weapon is back in this unstable person's hands. With accusations of addiction, theft, and all sorts of chaos, amid fears that intervention might put an addict into flight, the question of where the gun was became paramount.

    The first inquiry evoked foggy uncertainty: "Well, I think I took it back ...."

    Reminded that his daughter had spoken repeatedly as if she was in possession of the thing, his memory stayed foggy.

    When it was pointed out that the fear was not being shot during intervention, but that the gun might be used in a suicide, or sold onto the market and thus bringing authorities to his door, as the last known registered owner?

    Well, if his daughter commits suicide because she feels cornered over addiction, or sells the gun for a fix, that might reflect poorly on him.

    His memory cleared up instantly: He never took the gun back, or else he gave it back to her, and either way we need to make certain we know where it is.

    I still have no idea where the gun is.

    But it sort of blows my mind.

    Look, there are days when I misplace my keys, or lose track of my iPhone. I can lose my wallet somewhere in a ten square-foot area simply by blinking. But these things weren't crafted with the specific intention of killing something. (No, really, a snub .38 revolver is not a hunting or target-shooting gun; it's designed to put extraneous holes in people at short range.)

    The questions seem simple to me: How do you not know where your gun is?

    Or: How did you come to think it wasn't loaded?

    Then again, I'm not a firearm owner; perhaps there is something wrong with the question that I won't see until I declare myself a "responsible gun owner".

    Of course, anyone can claim to be a "responsible gun owner", and then one day they may not be. A dead wife, a stillborn child; God works in mysterious ways.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    The Huffington Post. "Pennsylvania State Trooper Fatally Shot Pregnant Wife While Cleaning Gun: Police". March 10, 2014. HuffingtonPost.com. March 10, 2014. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/10/trooper-shot-wife-pregnant-pennsylvania_n_4934916.html

    Chang, David. "Pregnant Wife of State Trooper Shot, Killed". NBC Philadelphia. March 10, 2014. NBCPhiladelphia.com. March 10, 2014. http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Pregnant-Woman-Shot-in-the-Head-249046731.html

    Fields, Liz. "Gun Hidden in Donated Sock Kills Woman in Thrift Store". ABC News. March 8, 2014. ABCNews.Go.com. March 10, 2014. http://abcnews.go.com/US/gun-hidden-donated-sock-kills-woman-thrift-store/story?id=22832549
     
  13. Motor Daddy Valued Senior Member

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    5,425
    Just my opinion, from someone that has been professionally trained with a variety of weapons, as that police officer was, I seriously doubt that was an accident, hence the "But that's under investigation at this point. I can't go any further than that." comment in your post. Yes, there is a very slight chance of that accident happening, but I seriously doubt it was an accident. Just my opinion.
     
  14. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    24,690
    Wouldn't be the first time.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    When I say that they "don't give a damn about global warming" I assume people realize that means that they simply don't believe in it. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
    Indeed, but this afterlife is something they expect to happen literally millions of years from now. They take an actuarial perspective on that. It's a no-brainer that giving up something today, in order to have something even better when their corpses are reanimated on some other planet after this one is swallowed by the sun, is a very poor investment strategy.
    The "Jewish religion" has as many facets as Christianity, and perhaps even more. Remember, it is a religion of laws, not doctrines. You can be an atheist and as long as you observe the High Holidays and bring honor to your community, nobody gives a damn except the rabbi--who is more likely to enjoy a spirited debate with you than to chide you. They seem to feel that their God has considerably more self-esteem than the one the Christians worship, and doesn't need to be surrounded by people who constantly reassure him of his own existence.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Perhaps my numbers were off, but I consistently see assertions that Heaven and Hell did not have their current detailed descriptions until relatively recently, and that Christians, like the Jews, were expected to commit good deeds because it's the right thing to do, not because it might facilitate their journey to Heaven.

    Belief in Hell has certainly been attenuating in postwar America. As I've reported before, a recent poll said that about 3/4 of American Christians believe in Heaven, but only about 1/4 believe in Hell.

    I'm waiting for someone to find out if more of them believe in Santa Claus than in God.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    After all, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are the two most common and most recognized symbols of Christianity in American pubic life.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
  15. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    Well trained people can make errors.
    Surgeons remove the wrong kidney; Electricians electrocute themselves; ships run aground.
    Not remembering to empty a gun before cleaning it is a basic mistake, but possibly he was distracted by other things happening.

    As an argument for banning weapons, it doesn't hold up though.
    It is a good argument for cleaning the weapon somewhere else than in the living room.

    One of the most horrible accidents you hear about is people driving over their young children when leaving the house drive.
    It must be a living nightmare.
    Not an argument for banning cars, but a good argument for people checking where children are before driving off.

    @Fraggle
    Regarding Christian dogma on salvation through works.
    I would give up on theology if I were you.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  16. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Plinking Windmills

    It is a particular American phenomenon that those who enjoy abberrant dispensation under the Constitution are eternally paranoid about losing that privilege.

    No, really, that's not a joke. Think of our politics; if that Christian can't legally oppress you, he is being oppressed. And the firearm advocacy crowd? To the one, nobody's taking their guns away anytime soon. To the other, as I noted, the phrase "responsible gun owner" is meaningless. The coincidence in my lifetime between self-prolcaimed responsible gun owners and insanely dangerous stories told for the sake of amusement about how this or that happened with their gun is perfect.

    There is a fairly simple policy that will begin to address this: No accidents and mandatory insurance. And the problem isn't just the mandatory insurance; "responsible gun owners" don't want to be held "responsible" for their "accidents" and other irresponsibility.

    And here I'm not just talking about the one where the young twentysomethings were dry-firing the gun, the owner reloaded it and left it sitting on the table, and then someone dry-fired it again without realizing and killed another person. (Yes, that really happened.)

    And there is a certain darwinesque perversity about the guy who accidentally shot himself to death while trying to show his girlfriend how safe his guns were.

    The gun lobby has spent much effort trying to convince us that the problem isn't guns. And, in a way, they're exactly right: People with guns are the problem. But these are the United States of America; banning the possession of firearms is not something we are allowed to do without changing the Constitution. But banning the possession of firearms is a great straw man for "responsible gun owners" seeking to change the discussion to anything but responsibility.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Burke, Peter. "Justin Holt shot, killed at friend's Boca Raton apartment". WPBF. December 2, 2013. WPBF.com. March 11, 2014. http://www.wpbf.com/page/search/htv...lled-at-friends-boca-raton-apartment/23248754


    WWJ. "Man Shoots Himself In The Head While Demonstrating Gun Safety". CBS Detroit. February 24, 2014. Detroit.CBSlocal.com. March 11, 2014. http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2014/02...f-in-the-head-while-demonstrating-gun-safety/
     
  17. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    12,738
    If people are stupid enough to treat lethal implements like toys,
    then the consequence will be fatalities.
    Darwinism in action.

    The Officer was probably just unlucky.
    If he has been negligent, then what has occurred is more than adequate punishment.
    Any other guilt is for courts to decide.

    I have no stance on guns in the USA. I can see both sides of the argument.
    I'm just glad our history went a different way, and that we have so many fewer of them in the UK.
    We have a lot of very stupid people here. Easily available guns would compound that problem.

    I think that the US could beneficially bring in some legislation about the ownership and storage of weapons,
    but some people are so wary of government that they don't trust officials.
    To some extent, I don't blame them. I don't trust your government either.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
  18. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    36,962
    Three-pack, not plastic-wrapped behind the convenience store counter

    Because You Never Know When You Might Need to Shooot Your Best Friend In Order to Save Him ...
    ... and other notes (and bad puns).


    Well ... you know ... it happens.

    A man who was killed during a fight at an Austin, Texas club earlier this month apparently was accidentally shot by his best friend, KXAN reported Tuesday.

    Arturo Torres, 28, was playing pool with his former brother-in-law Edgar Macedo, 26, on March 1 at Austin's Club Zota. Torres bumped into another bar goer and an argument ensued, according to an arrest warrant obtained by KXAN.

    Macedo was later followed to the restroom by the men who started the argument. Torres followed them, discovered they were fighting and then pulled out a handgun in attempt to break up the tussle. Another man tried to wrestle the gun from Torres and caused it to discharge, striking Macedo.


    (Thompson)

    While the alleged shooter's brother describes the Arturo Torres and Edgar Macedo as best friends, the surviving "friend" is on the run, with authorities planning to charge him with manslaughter.

    • • •​

    Meanwhile, spring break is off with a bang. (Oh, come on, wouldn't you?)

    A 19-year-old Alabama woman was accidentally shot in the leg on Monday while she was unpacking for her spring break trip in Panama City Beach, Fla., the News Herald reported.

    While Katlin Brianna Moore and other travelers were pulling luggage out of a vehicle in a parking garage, she tossed a duffel bag on the ground., according to the police report. When the bag hit the ground, a two-shot 9 mm Cobra Derringer pistol inside fired, striking Moore.

    The bullet went through her left calf and grazed her right leg, according to the incident report. The pistol was owned by 21-year-old Ancelmo Avilez Diaz, police said.


    (MacNeal)

    Panama City Beach Police have expressed that the shooting seems accidental, and do not foresee charges against Diaz.

    • • •​

    And it's hammer time in Detroit, because we all know the key to self-defense is a faithful gun.

    An 82-year-old Detroit man fought off a home invader, bashing the would-be thief in the head with a hammer.

    "I asked him to leave," George Bradford told WJBK. But when the man didn't leave, "that's when I let him have it."

    The intruder didn't fall, but he wobbled.

    "He asked me not to kill him," Bradford says.

    Bradford says he wasn't just protecting his home, which he's owned since 1968. He was protecting his elderly mother, daughter and granddaughter, all of whom share the home with him.


    (Huffington Post)

    It should be noted, though, that Mr. Bradford could have used a "better" weapon; talking with the press, he expressed that the hammer isn't the only weapon in the house. He says he doesn't want to kill anyone, but he will if that's what he thinks he has to do.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Thompson, Catherine. "Man Accidentally Shoots Best Friend While Trying To Save Him From Club Fight". TPM Livewire. March 11, 2014. TalkingPointsMemo.com. March 11, 2014. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/texas-man-fatally-shoots-best-friend-trying-to-break-up-fight

    MacNeal, Caitlan. "Spring Breaker Accidentally Shot While Unpacking In Florida". TPM Livewire. March 11, 2014. TalkingPointsMemo.com. March 11, 2014. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/accidental-shooting-spring-break-florida

    The Huffington Post. "Grandpa Attacks Intruder With Hammer, Saves Family". March 11, 2014. HuffingtonPost.com. March 11, 2014. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/11/grandpa-attacks-intruder-with-hammer_n_4939437.html
     
  19. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    27,534
    There's only one fact about US gun laws, THEY ARE CRAZY AND ABSURD.
     
  20. Sorcerer Put a Spell on you Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    856
    I used to post on an American forum and enjoyed discussing various subjects with them, such as the death penalty, the prison population, plea bargaining etc; and especially gun control. The defining comment, by an ex-soldier who owned an M1A and 2000 rounds of ammunition, was : There are 300 million guns in the US and they aren't going anywhere anytime soon, so get used to it.

    They don't care about the 30,000 gun deaths every year, they really don't; they're addicted to their deadly toys in the same way that heroin addicts love their needles. Don't try logic, because it doesn't apply.
     
  21. Motor Daddy Valued Senior Member

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    5,425
    It's about principles! Cars kill people too, especially in the hand of a driver that uses the other hand to text message while driving, but you aren't throwing a fit about outlawing cars and cell phones, are you?

    Are you throwing a fit about cheeseburgers in the hands of a child? How about bacon, eggs, pizza, fried chicken?
    When will you be demanding that playgrounds are shut down?
    When will you shut down all the beaches and pools that kids drown in?

    When will gasoline and butter knives be outlawed, in the name of safety?

    ...and the matches absolutely have to go! Do you know how many kids die from playing with matches?
     
  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Cloacal Velocity

    Ask that question again when I'm riding an AR-15 to work while sending you a message in nine millimeter Morse code.

    Are you actually asserting that these things are designed as lethal weapons? Should you need a weapons permit to keep a hen? After all, the cloacal velocity of an egg is lethal, right?
     
  23. Sorcerer Put a Spell on you Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    856
    I'm not trying to do any of those things. I don't live there so I don't care if they kill each other. They've made a democratic choice to reject any - or at least most - controls on guns and that's their right. It's not logical but then people are often not logical. Just as you are not being logical.
     

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