Discussion in 'Human Science' started by skaught, Feb 20, 2011.

  1. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member


    LOL! Making excuses for what? Human traffickers is a criminal activity and sociopathy/psychopathy is a method of diagnosing and individual. Someone can murder another individual as a gang or mob member and not necessarily be a sociopath. It may attract sociopaths but you cannot cannot say 'human traffickers are sociopaths' that you cannot do. Why? Because psychopathics only make up roughly 15-20% of the criminal population. There is a population, yes even among, traffickers where economic and social environmental issues are responsible for their criminal behaviour and they are by no means psychopathic.
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  3. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

    You got know Idea . I have dealt with my affliction for a very long time , I am not selfish. I was that odd kid in the neighborhood that the other kids and there parents said just don't fit in. I have learned over many years how to deal with it. I don't choose to label my self like this . I recognizes my behavior and am making an attempt at honesty as it is something we normally tend to hide from the world just like my Dyslexia. I confront my fears , so I overcome my natural tendencies of reclusiveness. I feel fine. I don't consider My self to have a mental illness , but as far as anti social behavior I am well versed.
    I don't like to mention addiction, yet it is a natural tendency, For me it is not substance abuse , but the same type of compulsive impulsive exist in obsessive daily activity . It is a family characteristic . Like I say for the most part it is controlled, by new learned behavior. I take on other peoples personalities. Ones that seem like they are except-able by society . It is hit and miss so well I adjust my self when I realize a miss. I want to fit in . I want to be like people considered normal. I would love nothing more than to have the feeling of like mindedness . O.K. No worries This just seemed like a good thread to voice it all .
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  5. birch Valued Senior Member

    you are really stretching excuses. you also make very impractical arguments.

    we are not discussing murder as a defense, are we? IF and that's a big, hypothetical if, that a human trafficker has no choice but to do so or else they starve then there is an exceptional point. most human traffickers do so for GAIN, not out of absolute necessity. because they are sociopaths (duh) with no regard to the suffering and exploitation of others, they engage in that behavior just as drug lords don't give a shit about how drugs ruins lives as long as they get rich! keep reaching, lucy! and what makes you think a gang member or a mob member is not a sociopath? laugh at yourself. true, some may be naive juveniles who are lost and brainwashed to think the gang is it's family who come out of it which realize they were lead astray but that's quite different than a sociopath who lives off of the exploitation of others. some of those gang members probably are sociopaths. if one continues to rob little old ladies and don't have a problem with it, then they are a sociopath. mob members ARE sociopaths as they do live off the exploitation of others. however, the killing of eachother in the mob or gang isn't so much the reason why they are sociopaths as that is intra-warfare with people of the same values.

    i love how you came up with that 15 to 20 percent. are you repeating what you read somewhere? and you are so sure of this? i've lived in society so i know that sociopathy is a gradient as i stated before. it really is.

    there is a level of sociopathy in all of us but when it's defined as a disorder is when it's more extreme. what is called normal is when people utilize their conscience to some degree to work with others rather than outright exploit them.

    your point is rather hilarious. so if it's not sociopathy, then what is causing someone to just commit acts of barbarism even knowingly? hmm?

    what would be the excuse for the man who starved his step-daughter to death because he didn't like her? how about the man who beat his girlfirend's son every single day like he was a punching bag with no regard for him or his feelings? hmm? or how about people who rape? hmm?

    if they don't fit into some narrow-definition of a sociopath who can't 'empathize' at all, which i know is largely bullshit anyways but i'll entertain the idea for the sake of argument, then what is the problem? hmm?

    there are very few people, i would say much less than the 15 to 20 percent you cite that absolutely cannot empathize at all. that would fall more into the area of psycopaths as well as mental illness. empathy is largely a choice even with sociopaths.

    sociopaths are narcissists. yes, they can empathize when they choose to. it doesn't take much to figure out how the can of worms progresses from a narcissist.
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2011
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  7. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member


    Okay. You keep speaking of impractical arguments and 'excuses'. So what you need to do now is go and back up your assertion. I want evidence of your claim that human traffickers are sociopaths/psychopaths.

    I want to see evidence. There is evidence that shows a difference between biological and environmental criminal behaviour and now I want you to show evidence that human traffickers are in fact 'sociopath/psychopath' which is to say that they suffer from a biological condition.

    Birch: i love how you came up with that 15 to 20 percent. are you repeating what you read somewhere? and you are so sure of this? i've lived in society so i know that sociopathy is a gradient as i stated before. it really is.

    Yes yes of course I am going by the numbers of experts not some guy who presents subjective experience that cannot be validated and presents them as facts. I mean really Birch have you worked and done research in the prison system to know the percentages or even the gradients? Which scale did you use? It must have been Dr. Hare's because that is what is used to test psychopathy/sociopathy, if you even have an assertion that sociopathy is gradient its because (LOL) Hare discovered so first. And yes his study as well as research by others show that psychopaths only make up between 15 and 20% of the population.

    Pretending to be an expert when you are only a dilettante dependent on experts simply makes you look foolish.
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2011
  8. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

    It is my opinion you are for the most part right. Most criminal activity in my opinion would be people that endeavor in this activity for the money . Anything for a buck mentality and human life only has the value that others will pay . Haiti is a good example as the general population is extremely poor and human trafficking is very high in comparison to countries not so poor. The activity goes both ways though for the buyer may be psychotic more often than the seller I would think, unless they are a resale outlet . Who buys people ? Sexual deviants ? I think they qualify as psychotic
  9. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    There are other forms of criminal pathology than the kind labeled "sociopath". There are sadists, for example, and other psychopaths.

    The lack of empathy is diagnostic, AFAIK. And one should never underestimate the ability of a sociopath to fake empathy - they've had an entire childhood's worth of training in the matter, and are highly motivated. It gets them what they want.
  10. birch Valued Senior Member

    like i said, not all sociopaths fit into one narrow profile. there are those who fake empathy depending on the situation and the people involved but there are those who also empathize to those they agree with.

    a rapist can empathize with another rapist since they operate alike as well as have the same values. i know since my rapist was always fervently making excuses and defending others like him. it's ludicrous to think that all sociopaths have total lack of empathy. sociopaths are just assholes really! and are we really going to mince words now? a sadist is a sociopath just like a murderer is a criminal. we don't say a murderer is a murderer and not a criminal. please..

    also, the argument was surreal to begin with. as if the 15 to 20 percent is just totally non-empathetic while the rest of the seventy or so percent of a population is somehow 'deeply' empathetic. what? hell, no. no, that is not reality.

    if people really believe that then they can believe there is waterfront property in arizona for purchase.

    well, perhaps unlike you i also use common sense as well as think for myself. i also consider other people's research but also can observe myself. maybe that is not 'expert' enough to you. lol

    as for people in "prison", they are the ones that got "caught", honey. as well, when someone is being "interviewed" they put on an act. there is only so much that is revealed.

    someone's real life experience living with a sociopath is much more enlightening as when they see you as prey and they are behind closed doors, everything is revealed.

    also, if you could actually stop being so narrow-minded, you'd realize i didn't just use my own subjective experience but also used other examples with other people's experience.

    YOU said that sociopaths cannot empathize, i showed you that they can. i suppose it doesn't fit into a narrow and neat filing system for you, so it's chucked out the window. how convenient but not very accurate.

    sociopaths can empathize with certain people or with those who have similar value systems as they. if you can't understand that, then you can only gobble up what some 'expert' says is true.
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2011
  11. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member


    Common sense made people believe the world is flat. Science is not about common sense but verifiable data. You made a statement about human traffickers, you show no evidence for why you believe your claim outside of portraying an narrow understanding of criminality.

    Just because you lived with a sociopath doesn't mean you know anything about sociopathy. If anything your experience has narrowed your perspective so you can only project your personal bias on an objective subject matter.

    You said they can empathize and all the research and data reveals that you are incorrect.

    This thread is not about your childhood.
  12. Kennyc Registered Senior Member

  13. birch Valued Senior Member

    really? so evidence is just by those who are 'deemed' experts on the subject?

    is that the extent of your grasp of reality? lmao

    my "subjective" experience has a boatload of information as well as other people who have life experience with it.

    it's true that there are 'symptoms' which are in general characteristics of sociopaths which are not being disputed but it's just not true that sociopaths cannot empathize at all, which means with absolutely no one and with no ideas, concepts or feelings.

    YOU are not just being narrow-minded but absolutely obtuse! i just told you that even a rapist can empathize with another rapist yet you just overlook that! unless an 'expert' tells you so, you cannot believe it! amazing!

    my childhood? i have more to say and offer in this thread than YOUR regurgitation of what anyone can look up as you parrot conventional "data."

    you have the stupid gall to think that a person's real life experience with sociopaths as well as others who have experience with it is of no relevance but your parroting of an 'expert' is more enlightening?? you think experts just interview sociopaths in prison and not their victims? this is data gathering? do you think an 'expert' would consult YOU? or the myriads of victims who really have insight?

    what the hell do you know about sociopathy?? you don't even know that a sociopath can empathize with another sociopath! your points are totally unrealistic anyways.

    i've repeated over and over that it's not that i'm not disputing that some sociopaths fit a certain profile but that they all don't fit into just a narrow one. there are sociopaths that can empathize and do with their friends and family! of course there are those who don't as well but that doesn't mean just because someone can empathize with certain people that they aren't sociopaths! there are serial murderers who would not kill their family or whoever they care about but go around killing women for some reason!

    it's amazing this is unknown and if it is, there really should be more research because the info is inaccurate!
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2011
  14. ULTRA Realistically Surreal Registered Senior Member

    I am a fully qualified, paid up, card-carrying sociopath. I live on my own as I am impossible to live with apparantly. Ignore everything Birch has proffered. As usual, he is spouting crap like a monkey with rectal dysfunction. I wasn't going to comment, but hey, right of reply and all that. Personally I'm not meglomaniacal, though I dispise assumed authority; I've never illegally killed anyone for thier organs or otherwise, but I have blown things up, built and hoarded weapons of all descriptions and been caught with (amongst other things) nitric acid, sulphuric acid and sodium azide. This makes hydrogen cyanide.
    I am labelled as a danger to myself and others, and am basically paid to stay at home though I don't consider myself as such. I know exactly what I'm doing. In my 41 years i've broken over 16 bones as apparantly I'm not shy about putting myself in harms' way, and have saved a number of people. But I've been comitted 3 times, once for 8 months; Gassed myself in a van, overdosed on heroin, paracetamol and temazepam + alcohol, and sliced myself open umpteen times. AND I CHOOSE TO BE LIKE THIS??? I hate "society" as it's poisionous and commercialism/capitalism as it's destroying everything important.

    I hate people spouting ignorance, claiming it is wisdom. I also refuse to lie, to anyone, ever. This often offends.

    If anyone has any serious questions, I'll be here.
  15. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    I asked you for evidence. You have presented none but opinion you cannot back up at all, not even through an understanding of criminality which you don't seem to know very much about.

    Its interesting that you want to attack me for having actually researched the subject and not simply taking you as some kind of guru on the subject. So be it but like I said it just makes you look like a fool if you personalize a subject that isn't about you.

    Re-read the OP. He's interested in finding out more on the subject. What we are doing is discussing what is current on that subject and all you are doing is ignoring what proper research reveals because it contradicts your own childish notions.

    It matters not to me whether you are curious enough to broaden your understanding or not.

    I would suggest though that perhaps you need more therapy if you still feel you were so connected to your abuser that you could know if and what they felt and through them know all about the science of the subject. Just a suggestion
  16. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Sympathy and understanding are not empathy.

    Not all rapists are sociopaths; probably most aren't, actually.

    Empathy is not created by agreement, perception, comprehension, understanding, etc. It's a mirroring of the feeling - an internal recreation of the actual feeling attributed to another person. It's not a matter of "agreeing with the values" etc. - it's not even, in most people, controlled by that part of the mind that "agrees" or has "values".
  17. Kennyc Registered Senior Member

    by Robert Frost
    When I see birches bend to left and right
    Across the lines of straighter darker trees,
    I like to think some boy's been swinging them.
    But swinging doesn't bend them down to stay.
    Ice-storms do that. Often you must have seen them
    Loaded with ice a sunny winter morning
    After a rain. They click upon themselves
    As the breeze rises, and turn many-colored
    As the stir cracks and crazes their enamel.
    Soon the sun's warmth makes them shed crystal shells
    Shattering and avalanching on the snow-crust--
    Such heaps of broken glass to sweep away
    You'd think the inner dome of heaven had fallen.
    They are dragged to the withered bracken by the load,
    And they seem not to break; though once they are bowed
    So low for long, they never right themselves:
    You may see their trunks arching in the woods
    Years afterwards, trailing their leaves on the ground
    Like girls on hands and knees that throw their hair
    Before them over their heads to dry in the sun.
    But I was going to say when Truth broke in
    With all her matter-of-fact about the ice-storm
    (Now am I free to be poetical?)
    I should prefer to have some boy bend them
    As he went out and in to fetch the cows--
    Some boy too far from town to learn baseball,
    Whose only play was what he found himself,
    Summer or winter, and could play alone.
    One by one he subdued his father's trees
    By riding them down over and over again
    Until he took the stiffness out of them,
    And not one but hung limp, not one was left
    For him to conquer. He learned all there was
    To learn about not launching out too soon
    And so not carrying the tree away
    Clear to the ground. He always kept his poise
    To the top branches, climbing carefully
    With the same pains you use to fill a cup
    Up to the brim, and even above the brim.
    Then he flung outward, feet first, with a swish,
    Kicking his way down through the air to the ground.
    So was I once myself a swinger of birches.
    And so I dream of going back to be.
    It's when I'm weary of considerations,
    And life is too much like a pathless wood
    Where your face burns and tickles with the cobwebs
    Broken across it, and one eye is weeping
    From a twig's having lashed across it open.
    I'd like to get away from earth awhile
    And then come back to it and begin over.
    May no fate willfully misunderstand me
    And half grant what I wish and snatch me away
    Not to return. Earth's the right place for love:
    I don't know where it's likely to go better.
    I'd like to go by climbing a birch tree,
    And climb black branches up a snow-white trunk
    Toward heaven, till the tree could bear no more,
    But dipped its top and set me down again.
    That would be good both going and coming back.
    One could do worse than be a swinger of birches.

    ...perhaps those that swing on birches could be sociopaths??
  18. birch Valued Senior Member

    this subject is not funny in any way. just because you claim to be a sociopath who is 'impossible' to live with, that doesn't mean every sociopath has no support, friends or family. it is ludicrous to believe that.

    there are sociopaths who have plenty of friends and family that care for them.

    what "more" evidence is needed? do people really need to believe that sociopaths cannot empathize with anyone? this is going into intellectual dishonesty. even jeffrey dahmer was loved by his family and he cared for them at least enough to not predate on them.

    there are sociopaths who are married and have children and families for chrissakes. they are not all single living in someone's basement or with 'sociopath' written on their forehead.

    there was a case of a man who abducted a young girl and raped/murdered her and threw her in a ditch. they found out he was happily married from all accounts of his wife and he even had children. is that really surprising?

    what makes people think that all sociopaths are disconnected and totally unempathetic?
  19. ULTRA Realistically Surreal Registered Senior Member

    When I was a boy, I did exactly that. Often swinging on a birch 'till I could grab the next one and so-on. In fact, I broke my first bone, my arm, in 1976 falling out of a lime tree! My mother didn't believe me and when the vet came the next day to see a donkey, I had him look at my arm. I ended up in horsepital!
  20. Kennyc Registered Senior Member


    I admire this more than all the rest.
  21. ULTRA Realistically Surreal Registered Senior Member

    Birch. You struggle to understand it. I struggle to live with it. See the difference? For you it's a passing amusement. For me, it's life or death. I assure you, I take it quite seriously.
  22. Kennyc Registered Senior Member

    And none of those things say the person in question is a socio or psychopath. They might be, they might not be. Only trained professionals can make a diagnosis and even they may be wrong.
  23. birch Valued Senior Member

    rapists aren't sociopaths? lol. interesting since this thread was mentioning 'expert's and even they would disagree with you. where are you coming up with this? your opinion?

    if that is your opinion, please qualify it.

    i know what empathy is. "mirroring" doesn't necessarily mean empathy as well. that's how some can pretend to empathize but it's also true that sociopaths can empathize with those who have similar or same values. i am not saying that 'values' is without emotion, is that what you thought? that values are just like putting the seat down after you pee? i'm talking about intrinsic values and experience. people tend to "empathize" with those they "understand" or "agree" with. a sociopath can empathize with another sociopath. yes, it's quite possible and it happens. geezus
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2011

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