Sociopath vs Psychopath

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Mickmeister, Sep 15, 2009.

  1. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    Well, not according to you!

    OK, I'll add something if it pleases you--perhaps this has already been mentioned, but obviously there are no "rules" against repetition:

    Psychosis may very well preclude a diagnosis of sociopathy, if the sociopathic tendencies occur concurrent with episodic psychosis in bipolar or schizophrenia. I suppose that such tendencies could occur during hypomania (sans psychosis), but I think that highly unlikely.

    That said, sociopathy is not all that uncommon--I believe like 1 in 100--whereas episodic sociopathic tendencies are even more common (in fact, one who experiences such is typing this right now).
     
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  3. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    I say Alien and John don't understand the term but they are at least engaged in the subject.

    But ok so you finally add something. The rate of sociopathy is roughly 4% in males and 1% in females in the US and lower in Asian societies so it is not really that common.
     
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  5. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    Well, that depends upon how one defines common. My point was more that sociopathy is probably a whole lot more common than many are inclined to believe.

    And I don't know that Alien necessarily misunderstands (there may be a previous post which suggests such, I'd have to double-check); rather, he was simply offering an etymological approach. That it may not me in concordance with a standard definition is inconsequential here, it's still interesting in itself.

    And sociopathy's relationship to psychosis is also somewhat interesting. I don't know for certain, but I suspect that sociopathic tendencies seldom manifest in hypomania--only mania. One can't ignore the negative symptoms of psychosis which certainly border sociopathy: paranoia, flattened affect (which doesn't necessarily connote a diminished capacity for empathy, but it's not unrelated).
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2009
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  7. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Well the stats are according to Mealy.

    http://www.bbsonline.org/Preprints/OldArchive/bbs.mealey.html

    I wouldn't say those percentages are common though I am sure there is a percentage that is never seen in the criminal courts nor mental health care institutions.
     
  8. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    But given the prevalent colloquial understanding of sociopathy, and what it connotes, wouldn't you say that many would be quite surprised to discover that one in 25 males are sociopaths?
     
  9. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    No. I think that people use the term willy nilly to describe what is not actually APD. Its like the term narcissism which is used to describe all sorts of vanity but has little to do with clinical narcissism which something else altogether.

    I think people refer to traits and characteristics they find among people without speaking of people who are actually are sociopath or whatever else. So no I wouldn't say that it is common.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2009
  10. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    Even so, given the standard definition of sociopathy/ASPD (and, of course, not all experts agree that a person with ASPD is necessarily a sociopath), one person in a classroom of 25-30 students is very likely a sociopath (or will develop into a sociopath)--I think that would be a shocking revelation for many.
     
  11. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Well all people with APD are classified or regarded as sociopath and psychopath and one doesn't 'develop' a personality disorder it is something you have from the beginning. Its not like bipolar disorder or schizophrenia that suddenly hits someone.

    Where are you getting your stats? Hare regards the occurrence as rare and not at all common in society and in fact his percentage is lower than Mealy's.
     
  12. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    If you check Hare's scale where he measures on a 40 point scale you might say there are degrees within which one can score on the PCL-R. Perhaps it is this you refer to? That there are those who may not score high but are still within the group?
     
  13. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    This is not entirely true. Certainly, with ASPD the traits will manifest early, but one's personality is by no means a constant. 7-up. A person is not necessarily born with any personality disorder. No, one does not develop a personality disorder in the same way as say, bipolar, but one does grow into it. Considering "treatment," traditionally one "treats" a personality disorder with therapy alone; but in practice, this is not always the case: meds are certainly of value in addressing OCD, OCPD, Borderline, etc. But what about ASPD? One can't cure it, but can it be mediated?

    And consider the relationship to negative psychosis (which I mentioned in an edit a few posts back): psychology is not a "hard" science, and so much is speculative. With bipolar NOS--when it manifests in ultradian form for instance--many are wont to consider as a form of seizure disorder, i.e. frequent simple and complex partial seizures which manifest principally as extreme affect and mood aberrations. So really, who knows?

    I'm using the same ones. Like I said, it depends upon how one defines common. 1-4 percent is not really all that uncommon in my opinion--and like I said, I think that many would be surprised to find it that prevalent; I mean, if one considers the criteria, I believe many would think it quite rare--and that's what I mean by common: more prevalent than many would be apt to believe.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2009
  14. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    Actually, yes--I'm also considering it along a continuum or spectrum. And I am also accounting for episodic sociopathy, as opposed to simply the diagnosis of ASPD.


    Edit: And as re: John. He may be on topic, but I'm not entirely convinced that he is not trolling.
     
  15. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Are you referring to 7-up the documentary study?

    Hare disagrees. He says they are born this way and that you can no more take a normal person and turn them into a psychopath than you can take a psychopath and turn them into a normal person. There is much evidence that there is a neurobiological basis for the disorder. You can check James Blair in the British Journal of Psychiatry.
     
  16. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    where do you find evidence of episodic personality disorders? Personality disorders are rigid and do not turn themselves off and on. Someone can have episodes of depression or mania but its the cluster of characteristics that define a personality disorder. In other words they just 'are', its not something that happens episodically.
     
  17. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, the 7,, 14, 21 documentaries.

    But again, it's speculative. Many are considered to have a neurological basis, but many also disagree and suggest that personality disorders are a product of one's environment. Or both.
     
  18. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    Not episodic personality disorders, episodic manifestation of attributes of sociopathy. (see edit in #70)
     
  19. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Up until ten years ago with Marsha Linehan's treatment of dialectical behavioral therapy (DBT) there was no treatment for Borderlines, as a matter of fact it exacerbated the condition. But even now treatment for borderlines is difficult.

    APD doesn't have any treatment as far as a 'cure'. You are confusing pathologies. Personality disorders should not be regarded in the same light as Bipolar or schizophrenia which are disorders that in no way are a component of personality and are generally treated with medication. Personality disorders are quite different.
     
  20. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Well first of all outside of one character who was borderline in the series the purpose was not a study in character or personality, it was a study in socio-economic backgrounds and how they determine the future of the subject. In other words there were a variety of factors in the first seven years that determined what school they would go to, what work they would have etc. It was to determine the environmental factors in British class structure.

    No. Psychopathy is no longer considered environmental as they point out in that documentary. Hare and others have hard science to back up their claims that the brains of these people are indeed different and that they can see from an early age signs of the disorder. As far as personality disorders in general are concerned they use the term psychobiological when describing cause. Environment has a factor for all people but there is little to suggest that these disorders are caused by say upbringing which is what was thought in the 40's.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2009
  21. Alien Cockroach Banned Banned

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    You know, I have found that the kind of people who have a narrow-minded outlook on things tend to have poor moral judgement. I was trying to speculate on what might happen if a person who adhered to the psychoanalytic model were to interpret these terms literally, according to their root meanings. Doing so would obviously be kind of dumb if the terms are not used in this way by professional psychotherapists, but I felt that it was a sufficiently interesting and relevant thought to warrent mentioning.

    Clinical psychologists tend to pull out the word "psychopath" when they are dealing with a criminal who is either frustrating or impossible to keep under control without the use of extreme sedatives. They probably use the word "sociopath" to describe criminals who seem to be tractable, but their attitudes and beliefs are seriously scary. There is no complex reason behind it. They are just the utterances of frustrated, probably injured clinical psychologists who make their living by dealing with the criminally insane.

    What this boils down to is probably something like, "The Beast from China vs. The Son of All Evil from Japan." If you don't get that reference, then fuck you and the horse you rode in on.
     
  22. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, and now anticonvulsants--preferably the, well, more anticonvulsant variety, i.e. topiramate--are commonplace in treating BPD. And Linehan has met with quite a lot of opposition regarding her contentions in recent years. Even as regards the choice of anticonvulsants, many will argue for one such as lamotrogine, which is the only one which can be regarded as a true antidepressant (topiramate can easily exacerbate depression); lamotrigine on the other hand can easily exacerbate mania.

    No, I'm not confusing anything--personality disorders can very well be treated--not cured, but treated. However, you seem to be confusing the abundance of literature online, in publication, on PubMed, etc. for the "truth," whereas in practice I think (I know, rather) you will find matters quite different.

    Personality disorders can and are treated with medication--are you suggesting that drugs have no role in addressing schizotypal, schizoid, OCPD (not OCD), etc.? Well, I think you'll find a few hundred thousand psychiatrists who strongly disagree with you as regards this. Or do you think you know better?

    Seriously, in life and on 'da Internets I know a few dozen psychiatrists and neurologists (probably some psychologists too, but they don't interest me) and most are quite disconcerted by those who insist upon a rigid adherence to "the books." The practical reality of the matter is that personality disorders respond very well to ssri's, snri's, multiple reuptake inhibitors, anticonvulsants, etc. and to suggest that one ought only have recourse to therapy is absurd. Drugs may not address the core of the problem, but they do address symptoms--and outlook. And this is what matters!

    And I realize that i just said essentially the same thing over again three times, but that is because it really matters. Archaic and rigid thinking do nothing to help the patients or those who have to deal with them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2009
  23. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    I simply alluded to it to point out the personalities are not fixed.

    A documentary is hardly authoritative, especially in matters of psychiatry or psychology--authority is kind of a sketchy notion in such anyways. Yeah, hard science--they've also got lots of "hard science" to back up the epilepsy/bipolar thesis, and plenty to dispute it as well.
     

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