Social advantages and disadvantages of religion

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Norsefire, Jul 25, 2008.

  1. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    As I see it humans were here long before religion ever came into vogue so it would seem to me that humans really don't religions, religions really need humans!

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  3. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    But examine how Humans were before religion......
     
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  5. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    There is the implication to the above line of thinking that "social progress", "technological progress" are good things per se that should not be questioned.

    But where is that so-called "social progress" and "technological progress" leading to, where is it aimed?

    Looking at the unpreceeded environmental pollution that this so-called "technological progress" has caused, one has to wonder what exactly is good about "technological progress".

    And "social progress" - how is life to day really any better than 500 or 1000 years ago? Even in first-world countries, millions are unemployed, constantly fear for their jobs.

    And the way the situation with environmental pollution and oil is going, everything is only going to get only worse.
     
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  7. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    Quite fine because they were alive, having babies, living off the land, not polluting anything, keeping their numbers in check, no world wars, no religious wars or persecution, no moneies, no guns, and on and on. I don't see what they had was bad, do you?:shrug:
     
  8. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Again - your comments are given without any evidence.
    Why does tradition require religion? For example - please tell me where religion comes in to celebrating your birthday?
    Morality? Where is the evidence that religion is the sole provider of morality? Yes, it has helped provide one, partially through force. But morality is merely a societal norm - what is immoral one day might be moral the next, and vice versa. Do we have the same morals as during Egyptian times?
    And heritage requires no religion. Why do you think it does?

    Why would we be like robots? Does beauty come from religion? No. Love? No. Our ideas of beauty, love and such things might change and have different influences, but they would still shape the world as much as they do now. Does one's love of dynamic mathematical shapes require religion?

    Your arguments and comments seem to stem from incredulity and fear, and little more.


    Your inference seems to have gone: [World in which we live] minus [religious influence] = [depressing world]

    What should have happened is: [World in which we live] minus [religious influence] + [alternative influences] = [different world]

    Without religious influences being so pervasive we would have been more influenced by things we otherwise placed at the back. And this you seem to have overlooked. Or ignored.
     
  9. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    But they had no sense of identity. They lived like animals. One major thing that sets apart animals from people is the ability to even have religion.
     
  10. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    How do you know how they lived? I see you really haven't studied anthropology very much with a very silly statement like that. The anthropologists have found that many peoples from tens of thousands of years ago were very remarkable at having a tribe of some sort and traveling great distances trading with others and making clothing, tools and shelter for themselves. What do you mean by your statement anyway?
     
  11. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Religion provides identity - but then so does geographical location (just go to a football match) and a myriad of other things. So this is a non-starter as an argument.

    As for religion being something that sets us apart... only in so far as religion stems from having the intelligence to ask the questions but not enough to be able to answer them.

    One could say that other animals are intelligent enough not to ask the questions!

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  12. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    I mean that they lived to survive, rather than having purpose. The benefit of religion is that it gives people purpose, even if it's false, it's there.

    Even to atheists, don't you wish there was a heaven, even if you think there isn't one?

    As I said, it provides a structure for social order, establishes moral code, and in the practice of the religion, can make a certain society closer.
     
  13. KennyJC Registered Senior Member

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    My point is when religion gets it's way, we enter a dark age. See the majority of the Middle East today and Europe in the 'Dark Ages'.

    The less religious influence in society the better.

    I didn't even notice this when I originally posted, so I must edit my comment.

    Religion was not in itself an important role for human cultural and civil development, it was our burgeoning brain. To say we'd have no civilty if not for religion with our current brain is just against nature.
     
  14. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    I think religion did play quite a role in Human history.


    Also, you have it wrong. The less religious influence, isn't the better. The less religious power is, but not necessarily nonexistence of religion. I'd say, moderate faith in society is preferable to atheism.
     
  15. KennyJC Registered Senior Member

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    You can't have purpose without religion. A commonly repeated lie by people like you.

    That depends what heaven is. It's commonly said that heaven is an eternity of something or other. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't look forward to an eternity of anything.

    If you want a religion that provides structure, social order, a moral code and a close society - all as a result of religion, then why don't you want to go live in Saudi Arabia or Iran?
     
  16. KennyJC Registered Senior Member

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    But if religion is all the things you say it is, then why not just go all out? If you're only talking of moderation, then I say a rational society wether it be atheist or not, is a healthy one. Unfortunately I don't think you can have a rational society with even moderate faith, beacuse to be rational requires the disbelief of flying zombies and organised religion in general.
     
  17. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    And look at those countries! Their main flaw is intolerance. Other than that, the social order is more present than it is here in the States

    A society in which there is a moderate level of faith can enjoy the benefits of religion without the intolerance and narrowmindedness that extremism can bring about. An atheist society would lack many aspects of modern culture.
     
  18. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    *************
    M*W: I agree with you, neighbor, that religion has been influential on human history, but I don't agree that it has been a positive one, maybe for the reason you stated (power), but I'd would also like to add "control of the masses."

    I see atheism as influential to human history, because it evens the playing field by eliminating the vast belief systems that divide and conquer peoples of humanity. Atheism also perpetuates a sense of reality which helps us to see ourselves as we really are and treat each other with fairness and respect.

    History shows that one religion will always have the propensity to overcome another religion, but in an atheistic society, we would be equal in our own right, and we would have fewer fences in our world.
     
  19. KennyJC Registered Senior Member

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    Which is a characteristic of scripture in both islam and christianity.

    I guess that's one of the benefits of having medieval punishments.

    I go one further and say no faith. Of course that is unrealistic as society is pimarily full of idiots. But people without faith find productive things to do with life that tick all the boxes you cited in your OP, except of course that it is non-religious.

    Compare Sweden to the USA. Sweden is around 80-90% atheist, the USA is 90% religious. According to you, the Swedish should be more materialistic, immoral, uncivil, uncultured and so on and so on, yet that is far from the truth.

    Such as?
     
  20. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Greenberg
    lol
    kudos
     
  21. Betrayer0fHope MY COHERENCE! IT'S GOING AWAYY Registered Senior Member

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    The bible isnt written that well.
     
  22. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    Control of the masses? More like inspiration to the masses. Religion insofar as it has drastically affected Human development is quite valuable.

    But then there are no beliefs, no inspirations, no hope. That is the value of religion.

    We would also not have many holidays, not bury our dead, not bother communing with each other, etc
    It is a characteristic of Humanity.


    Punishment is punishment. In so far as you allow punishment, you allow every sort.



    Sweden's cultural aspects still derive heavily from heritage.





    Allow me to explain the difference between faith and religion. They can be interchangeable, but they really aren't the same thing.

    Religion is institutionalized. All the problems you describe come to be after religion is taken into areas it should not have been. After it becomes an institution and becomes supreme. I do not think this is what Jesus intended, for instance.


    Faith, on the other hand, is personal. It is belief. It is faith. It is kept within the boundary of personal belief.

    Therefore, I argue that while religion might not be best, faith is.

    As in, institutionalized religion as opposed to personal religion, or faith.


    The advantages of faith are numerous, including not only social enhancement (in establishing interactivity, celebration, as well as morality, etc), but on a personal level, it could be argued that it's easier to have peace of mind while having faith.

    That's the value of faith, peace of mind, hope, and inspiration.
    At no time did Jesus say that people must attend church, or that there must be a pope, and he specifically said to love your fellow man.

    And with that message of faith, is there problem? No. It's after it becomes institutionalized and forced that we get problems.


    That's why I don't think it matters whether or not the Bible is historically accurate. It's in the meaning of faith, not in historical content. For all we know, most of what's in there never happened. But that isn't the point, they have a message. David and Goliath, I highly doubt they existed. But that isn't the point. The point is the message behind that.

    That's faith. Once religion becomes institutionalized, it then becomes militarized, and you have problems. There is no reason why one who has faith cannot be open minded. Faith is on a personal level.


    And faith, is a very important aspect of being Human. It's simply natural that we Humans want to have hope.
     
  23. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    neither are many contributions to sciforums

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