So MTV edited out Eminem being a bitch...

Is tiassa really this clueless?????

The emotion of the character in the song. I thought we already went over this...Oh that's right, we did but you just chose to ignore it.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

We have, both justme and I, told you that Eminem produced his last album. Let's see...he writes his own lyrics, and produces his own album, hmmmm...

I'm sorry, but your clueless. You showed earlier that you don't even listen to his music, you just read excerpts of his lyrics. Now your an expert on his fans????How the hell would you know why people listen to his songs?

A lame attempt at trash talking by Eminem, doesn't equal a threat. Once again.., the statement "Keep booing little girl, I'll hit a man with glasses", is hardly a reason for Moby to fear for his safety. I'm sure Moby is hiding in fear over that statement.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

You have turned into an idiot tiassa, my comment about "artistic statement", was sarcasm. I was asking you what kind of "artistic statement" Eminem could ever make musically, that would please you. My guess is nothing...

Don't twist my words around tiassa, you knew what I was saying.

Also, for someone who hasn't even listen to his songs, but instead reads little excerpts, you sure comment alot about his songs. Pick a damn song and actually LISTEN to it, instead of talking out of your ass about songs you've never even heard.

Your like those morons who protest a movie before it even comes out, or before they've even seen it. Your believe that his songs are about "Show me the money and watch me strut 'cuz I"m really that stupid!", as you put it, shows how clueless you are to this topic.

You didn't understand that "I remember" was about an ex-friend named Everlast who bad-mouth him. You probably didn't know until we told you, that "Stan" was a message about obsession, I doubt you understand that "Cleaning out my Closet", is a song about his past and how his mother who has munchausen syndrome, used to make him sick for sympathy, or how she abused him and tried to take his money...

Your the worst kind critic tiassa, you speak from ill-informed arrogance, instead of actually knowledge. I was no fan of Nirvana or many of the derivatives that came after in the so-called "grunge music era", BUT I would never insult Nirvana's fans and call them unintelligent for liking them.

The only thing that's stunning is your arrogance...

Eminem paid his dues for YEARS, and the only reason he got signed was because Dr. Dre took him under his wing. His success is due to the fact that people like his music.

Are there talented hard-working rock musicians, singers, rappers, and country artists, who still haven't made it big, YES, and that's a shame. But blaming it on another hard-working artist (Eminem) who spent years performing, and trying to get his foot in the door just like those mentioned, is flatout wrong.

It's funny how you ignore the radio play and MTV videos that Nirvana got, and blame them for Eminem's success... Nirvana actually had MORE videos when you consider that MTV actually played videos throughout the day in the early 90's, and now they hardly even play them anymore.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

I respect those who liked Nirvana, because I felt they had a message, all I ask is you do the same...

Exact same thing I do out here in LA.

Your the one who keeps bringing MTV up, perhaps you missed your OWN point...

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

As I said before, Eminem was respected lyrically BEFORE he had controversy. Does controversy help his record sells..,YES, but your wrong if you think that's the reason for his success.

What the hell is up with you and MTV??? They barely even play videos anymore. Nirvana had MUCH MORE video play than Eminem has, yet I would never say that MTV was the reason for their success. Here's a little about how Eminem gained his fame...

He took up rapping in high school before dropping out in ninth grade, joining ad hoc groups Basement Productions, the New Jacks, and D12. The newly named Eminem released a raw debut album in 1997 through independent label FBT. Infinite was poorly received, however, with Eminem earning unfavourable comparisons to leading rappers such as Nas and AZ. His determination to succeed was given a boost by a prominent feature in Source's Unsigned Hype column, and he gained revenge on his former critics when he won the Wake Up Show's Freestyle Performer Of The Year award, and finished runner-up in Los Angeles' annual Rap Olympics. The following year's The Slim Shady EP, named after his sinister alter-ego, featured some vitriolic attacks on his detractors. The stand-out track, "Just Don't Give A Fuck", became a highly popular underground hit, and led to guest appearances on MC Shabaam Sahddeq's "Five Star Generals" single and Kid Rock's Devil Without A Cause set.
As a result, Eminem was signed to Aftermath Records by label boss Dr. Dre, who adopted the young rapper as his prot‚g‚ and acted as co-producer on Eminem's full-length debut.

Your the only one acting like a child here tiassa. I already said (about a million times now...) that what Eminem did at the VMAs was LAME and I didn't condone it. Explaining the reasons he did it, isn't the same as justifying it.

He's an artist at the freakin MTV awards, THATS IT, you act like he should be Mother Theresa.

You must hate Ozzy Osbourne, the Ramones, Guns n Roses, etc...In your eyes, they must have been punks and their fans must be unintelligent.

Nobody in this world is perfect. We all have flaws, and do stupid things. Holding Eminem to some "Godly" standard, where he must never do wrong is retarded at best...

Your all over the place tiassa... and saying my logic is on par with Bush is a low blow.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

The Beatles, Stones, Dylan, Clapton, NIRVANA, all had mainstream success, and I still respect their music. The fact that you lump Eminem in with Spears and the Backstreet Boys, just because of success, shows that you have no idea what you talking about. Eminem writes and produces his albums, those two don't. His music has a message, theirs doesn't.

LOL!! If you don't know the difference between Pop music and Rap music, then this discussion is pointless.

Do you not see the difference between 2 Pac and Britney Spears, Public Enemy and N'Sync, or Nas and Avril Lavenge??? And no Nelly's music is not real rap...

I totally agree that Nirvana changed the rock music industry, but holding Eminem to that kind of standard this early in his career is unfair. Even though I didn't care for their music, I still recognize Nirvana as one of the top 10 most influencial bands in rock history.

One of the best articles I have read in the past regarding this very subject, was done by Spin magazine. It lists the top 50 greatest bands of all-time and there influence on the artists of today. I agreed with pretty much all their choices, here's some of them...
1) Beatles
Influenced: Beastie Boys, Blur, Oasis, the Chemical Brothers, Steve Earle, the Flaming Lips, Elliott Smith, Aimee Mann, Elvis Costello, Public Enemy, De La Soul, Jimi Hendrix, all boy bands -- oh, forget it: everyone!
Classic albums: Revolver (Capitol, 1966) and Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (Capitol, 1967)
2) Ramones - And my personal favorite band of all-time
Influenced: Green Day, Blink-182, Sum-41, U2, the Offspring, Sleater-Kinney, the Donnas, Black Flag, the Clash, the Sex Pistols -- oh, forget it: everyone!
Classic album: Ramones (Sire, 1976)
3) LED ZEPPELIN
Influenced: Tool, Limp Bizkit, Tori Amos, P. Diddy, Pearl Jam, Jane's Addiction, Soundgarden, Jeff Buckley
Classic album: Led Zeppelin IV (1971, Atlantic)
5) NIRVANA - No arguement from me
Influenced: The Smashing Pumpkins, Korn, Everclear, Bush, Foo Fighters, Staind, At the Drive-In, Hole, Garbage, Nickelback, Silverchair, so-called Generation X
Classic album: Nevermind (Geffen, 1991)
8) Public Enemy - What? A Rap group?? What will tiassa think?

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

Influenced: N.W.A/Dr. Dre, Rage Against the Machine, the Chemical Brothers, DJ Shadow, Dead Prez, Tricky, the Coup
Classic album: It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back (Def Jam, 1988)
9) Rolling Stones
Influenced: Aerosmith, Black Crowes, Stone Temple Pilots, Buckcherry, Liz Phair, Ryan Adams, Jon Spencer Blues Explosion
Classic album: Exile on Main St. (Virgin, 1972)
10) Beastie Boys - UH OH! another rap group....
Influenced: Eminem, Kid Rock, Limp Bizkit, Sum-41, skaters, snowboarders, Jackass, etc.
Classic album: Licensed to Ill (Def Jam/Columbia, 1986)
14) Run DMC - yet another rap group...
Influenced: Beastie Boys, Aerosmith, L.L. Cool J, Public Enemy, N.W.A, Korn, all rap-rock, all Adidas-wearers
Classic album: Raising Hell (Profile, 1986)
23) N.W.A. - hmmm...,another rap group...
Influenced: Eminem, Snoop Dogg, Wu-Tang Clan, Jay-Z, M.O.P., P. Diddy, the Notorious B.I.G., 2Pac, Axl Rose, Geto Boys
Classic album: Straight Outta Compton (Ruthless/ Priority, 1988)
44) Outkast
Influenced: Goodie Mob, Ludacris, N.E.R.D, Nappy Roots
Classic album: Stankonia (Laface/Arista, 2000)

http://www.spin.com/new/features/videofeatures/february2002top50.html

YES, this is just one magazine's opinion, but it does show that others see the influence and respect the contributions rap has made to the music world.

The problem with this debate is that you obviously hate rap, and think it's simply to produce, therefore any fan of Eminem's must have low standards, in your eyes. The fact though, is that good Rapping skills takes years of practice and learning, just like a poet, afterall Rap is muscial poetry.

I doubt you listened to the song suggestions I gave you earlier, so what's the point. You comment like you have heard many of his songs when you admit you haven't.

I respect Nirvana's music, just like I respect Eminem's music.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

Couldn't agree more, great post.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

1- true 'rap', by definition, is not music

2- that point aside, eminem and his style of rap are indeed pop-oriented, if not pop per se.


pop means popular. it is, and always has been, as simple as that.
if you can't understand it, get aids and die.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

1)Rap is by definition music..
1. The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre.
2. Vocal or instrumental sounds possessing a degree of melody, harmony, or rhythm.


2) I disagree, the Beatles were popular, yet not many would classify them in the pop catergory. The same could be said for most rock, rap, and country artists. Mozart is extremely popular, but I would never classify him in the Pop music category either...

 

Static

Which character was he playing at the VMA? Just remind me.

Both Justme and you. Like I said, write Eminem's company. Maybe after they find out about the horrible conspiracy at Barnes & Noble to hurt Eminem, he can go down there and threaten them.

Hey, don't hold my right to not listen to Eminem against me. What, are you trying to force me to buy his albums?

Never claimed to be. I'm just telling it like I see it. You know, being honest about what I see. Of course, this is not something that people should do? Should we, instead, make a huge artistic statement out of it?

By listening to the people I know who listen to him talk about him.

Duh.

If you ever want to know why people do something, just pay attention to the people who are doing it and the reasons they give for their actions and choices.

Is it that tough?

Oh, macho bravado. That's right.

I highly doubt that.

Stop and think about this. I watched this happen on the street: a woman took a swing at her boyfriend on a crowded city street before God, a hundred witnesses, and a couple of cops, who did nothing. The guy restrained himself, and the woman kept coming. It was only after the guy decided that he might have to defend himself that the police interfered.

So think about this: If I look at my girlfriend and shut her up by saying, "Keep booing, little girl, I'll hit a woman," I go to jail.

Perhaps that's something that doesn't happen in the world of Eminem's fans. But violence is generally looked down upon by intelligent people, and while I don't think Eminem needs to be jailed for his words, I think you'll end up eating yours when the full implications of what you're advocating become clear to you.

And don't worry, there's nothing I can do to make that clear to you. Rather, on some future occasion when someone threatens you, you'll have to figure out what to say when they look at the intervening party and say, "It wasn't a threat."

Keep minimizing the situation. I'm sure that process is of some use to your ego. But the simple fact remains that Eminem crossed a line with his words, and the question that remains unanswered in this topic is one I saw a few days ago about whether his behavior was "in character" or not. However, when we stop and think about how simple it apparently is supposed to be to understand his lyrics and his act, and when we stop and think that Eminem doesn't seem to know when the act stops and reality begins, I think minimization such as the sort you're after is only a justification of the self. It's hard to be a fan of someone so distasteful, and especially when they disagree with your moral position. That's why I never understood why people would make excuses for him. Are such methods of handling conflict acceptable to you? Between threats and macho bravado, I don't see much room for solutions.

Or, like one Eminem fan (female) puts it: "Yeah, it's pretty stupid. But he's so cute!"

Anything for a cutie.

This from someone making excuses for threats of violence?

You know, many people who make artistic statements about controversial issues do a little more than rehash them for rhythmical glory. I think if Marshall were to make an artistic statement that bore some personal integrity, I would probably be somewhat pleased no matter how ridiculous it is. Yet we're supposed to believe it's just an artistic statement when the artist himself cannot separate the statement from reality? Seems to me that we're awarding Marshall too much credit for intellect. I mean, it seems that all his fans understand his artistic statement but he doesn't.

Wow, that was desperate. I'm sure you can come up with a better response than that.

Well, I seem to recall that I read through lyrical selections that other people offered. I didn't have to go out and find them.

Duh.

You mean like the times I asked for people's recommendations and didn't get any, and then went out and downloaded the song "Without Me" and then offered my considerations thereof?

You mean like never doing the things that I've already done?

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

I think you're quite a ways off on this one.

• I didn't complain about the album before it came out
• I didn't complain about Eminem until he decided to threaten someone
• It is not my fault if what Eminem's fans insist of reality is not apparent

But I do understand that homosexuality and slang words referring to it are used toward negative characterizations.

It's kind of like saying, "No, I don't have a problem with homosexuality," and then turning around and saying that someone you don't like is a homo faggot pussy. Tell me, what does homo or faggot have to do with his problems with Everlast?

Until Eminem threatened someone publicly, I had no reason to care.

Well, I'm not one to criticize someone for speaking ill of one's parents. Sometimes it's deserved. But then you go and tell me that he's angry about his mother's mental illness?

I mean, as I read through, I can see that he is legitimately angry. But the method of expression is pretty weak. It seems to me that his repeated mantra through such songs is, "I'm an asshole, but I'm misunderstood so you're gonna enjoy me being an asshole 'cuz I don't have to change."

It's kind of like mystical and religious ideas of repentance. It just doesn't ring genuine. A little more integrity of perspective throughout the lyrics and he would have had it.

Why not? Most of the people who made Nevermind a best-seller were complete idiots and liked Nirvana because it was cool to like Nirvana.

In the meantime, wouldn't it be easier to be insulting if you were defending a more coherent, more educated, more defensible philosophic exposition?

And, yes, Nirvana took heat for their lyrics. But the one thing they never did was threaten their critics with bodily violence.

Two points:

• Many musicians better than Eminem pay their dues for longer periods and don't have a Dr Dre to take them under his wing
• His success is due to the fact that given the limited options put before them, people preferred to listen to it

How long do you think he would have languished without Dre? Would Dre really have picked him up if he didn't see exploitable commercial value in it?

Who's blaming Eminem for that?

Why do you consistently try to change the terms of what's being debated? When has anyone ever proposed blaming the problems of the music industry on Eminem? Noting that he's part of that problem? Sure. But it's the way of the business. Getting the extra boosts can be part of the game, but what you do with the boosts is very important.

Funny, that. As the pop movement of the late 1980s wound down, MTV started investing money in radio stations to get them to play alternative music.

They played videos throughout the day in the 1990s? I'll tell you what I remember fro 1992 (the year Nirvana broke): 1 episode "Headbanger's Ball" each week, MTV Spring Break was already on the scene, and "Yo! MTV Raps" got four hours a day airtime. Game shows, cartoons, news specials. Sure, it wasn't the same then as it is now. But if you're asserting that MTV's primary outlet played videos throughout the day in 1992, you're crocked. And, furthermore, when we stop and think about the deliberation of that programming: when they played videos, they played rap and dance-pop more often than not.

I will respect those who like Eminem when those who like Eminem can coherently state why to a degree that transcends the reasoning of a pre-teen. I will respect Eminem itself when it has a more coherent message.

Why? If you like the music on the radio? Or is it that Eminem is the only thing on the radio you like?

It's kind of like Eminem transferring the idea from whether it's done at all to "I'm not the first". I mean, who actually has blamed Eminem for the state of modern pop music? He may be symptomatic, but he's not the cause.

So is it that Eminem is something that's on the radio that you happen to like? I have a long list of favorite artists who reaped massive benefit from payola and other scandals. But they were musicians, interested in music, not would-be icons worried about image.

On some occasions, I really do want to let this settle to the point of two people discussing opinions, but then I see things like this and it makes me seriously wonder what the point would be. Let's take a look at it, shall we?

•_ stop and think about all the bands that the public, literally, cannot deny. The bands that get famous without MTV specials on the lyrical content. (Tiassa)

• Does getting airtime on MTV mean that the artist has no lyrical content. (Static)

• Are you intentionally missing the point or is this one of those things I get to hold against Eminem fans? (Tiassa)

• Your the one who keeps bringing MTV up, perhaps you missed your OWN point... (Static)

To be honest, I'm still confused by how you reached the notion of no MTV=no lyrical content. That idea wasn't a part of the discussion until you introduced it. Do I need to follow that vein of the conversation further back? Or can you figure it out from there?

• Some bands create art such as a song and video which are popular
• Some band create such a song and video which remains popular because the network runs "news" specials in support of side issues related to those bands

Easy enough? Some musicians are popular because they're musicians. Some pop stars are popular for reasons only peripherally-related to their music.

Between payola and controversy, I would say that's the most part of his success. There is the "dirty joke" quality to it, too, as noted in one of the articles provided.

Sit down with musicians who compose music, play instruments, and know their way around a recording studio.

Respected lyrically? Okay. I won't argue with that.

One of the problems critics, art snobs, aficionados, and others have with things such as Eminem's "lyrical respect" is that they're not respected musically, but for their comic value. Eminem has respect the same way Andrew Dice Clay did. If there was more thematic consistency in his images, more proper use of the factors assembled in the lyrics, you would see the whole of the artistic community out in his defense, and despite what the lyrics may or may not have said in that case, Moby probably wouldn't have opened his mouth. Like the Margot Kidder line. Why is it that Eminem's fans are of no help on this one? Lyrical respect? Why? Because he can make words rhyme? Woo-hoo. So can most people, much less most musicians, artists, or rappers. Beyond that, he might have a knack for odd frames of reference, but lyrical respect because he can rhyme? That the lyrics need not be coherent or demonstrate any understanding of the words employed apparently is not a consideration related to lyrical quality? If Eminem was lyrically respected among his peers, I would say that reflects poorly on the community, and does not stand as a credit to Eminem.

Gosh, you don't think MTV airplay affects record sales at all, do you? It's just an advertising outlet. One of the problems I have with that kind of "music" culture is that it is so damn narrow.

Technically, compared to other musicians, he seems to have had it easy career-wise. One badly-received album, a couple of contests, and some help from a superstar who was looking for a new face for his label. Geez: Jeff Keith of Tesla got noticed at a karaoke bar in Tahiti, belting out "I Can't Drive 55".

Oh, it's so lame, but that Moby is just such an awful liar, yadda, yadda, yadda ....

Do you need to make such severe polarizations in order to have an inkling of a point?

He can say what he wants in defense of his lyrics. But if he's going to threaten people, he doesn't have much of a defense any more.

Actually, I do respect a certain amount of social deviance in artists. But Ozzy was better when he was just a guy banging out songs, such as with Black Sabbath. The Ramones? I have to admit I've been fortunate on the count of the Ramones. GNR? Duh. I mean, sure, they can write the occasional good song, but I don't recall ever having spent my money on a GNR album.

If you weren't so prone to overstating the situation, you might have a point. Of course nobody's perfect. That includes, for instance, Moby. If Moby is so wrong, why is it left to Marshall's fans to make that statement? If Marshall knows Moby's wrong, why not show it instead of just shoot off at the mouth?

Holding Eminem to a "Godly" standard? How about basic decency and civility?

You forfeit much credit that might otherwise bolster your arguments by putting them in such an unnecessarily-polarized context.

As soon as you demonstrate who is holding Eminem to a godly standard of perfection where he cannot do wrong, I'll stop thinking that you're retarded at best.

Fair enough?

Not my problem if the considerations you undertake confuse you.

Furthermore, what am I supposed to think of such low-brow "logic"? "Nobody is trying to justify Eminem's behavior, we're just putting it into context." What context is that? A context that establishes the propriety of Eminem's behavior? Why don't you explain what context you're trying to achieve. Seriously, if you don't want to be viewed like a Bush, don't make excuses like one.

Being present does not equal production, or else Spears and Backstreet would produce their albums, too.

Now then:

• Beatles: New standards in songwriting. New standards in sound engineering and recording technique.
• Stones: Standards in songwriting and performance.
• Dylan: Standards in lyricism; new low standard in vocal talent
• Clapton: Standards in performance capability
• Nirvana: Standards in songwriting
• Eminem: Standards in _____? (Obscenity? Free expression? Poetry? Lyrical excellence?)

Their music has messages, too. I just laugh at those messages.

Funny, as I recall, someone suggesting that Eminem be called King of Rock and Roll is what set Moby off in the first place.

2 Pac? Now I might come to respect 2 Pac simply because in all this time, nobody has tried to tell me that he's anything more than a rap-based Elvis myth. I was more a fan of his mother. However, nobody has tried to establish 2 Pac as anything more than an immediate expression of various concepts that I do and don't disagree with. It's sad that he died, or did he? But, anyway, it's sad that he died, but you know, such is the way of macho bravado. And since 2 Pac didn't get up on TV in front of nearly a billion people and threaten someone for criticizing him, I have never felt compelled to give a rat's behind about 2 Pac.

Public Enemy gets my respect because without them, there might be no market for Eminem to perform in.

P.E. got limited airplay on MTV, and virtually none on commercial radio. 2 Pac got limited airplay on MTV and maybe a little more on commercial radio. Spears, N'Sync, and others get massive airplay on both MTV and commercial radio. So does Eminem. So did Pearl Jam, for that matter, but we see that some of those musicians gave a rat's behind about music and the consumer experience while the others tend to ride the wave and enjoy it.

Why unfair? Nirvana was that good early on.

However, the point is taken, even though I find it misdirected.

Nifty list. It's also from Spin magazine. I won't complain, but I will make that simple point. Your commentary seems very pointed, too. For instance, you continue your distortion of the issues.

What would Tiassa think? Tiassa has nothing personal against rap in general. It's just that, having stood in the trenches alongside the rappers and defended the artistic merits of the art form, I would like to see more actual art in the form than hype. Public Enemy? Saw 'em live, twice.

I'll try to let you know when Mojo or Q do their Top 50 lists, but notice how many of the bands you've listed are modern?

My problem with Rap comes from the number of rappers who waste the art-form. It's kind of like advertising 2001: A Space Odyssey and delivering Deep Throat VII.

Your attempted simplification of the issues, in addition to being incorrect, only attests to your need to have the issues simplified.

What? Generally speaking, it is.

Try being an engineer on a rap album: Okay, record the vox, bring in the samples, throw it all into an Apple G4 and run it through the application. I have more respect for the DJ's than I do the production of rap. For instance, as much as I enjoy Kid Sensation's "Prisoner of Ignorance", I'm not going to pretend that its production values anywhere meet those of the Beastie Boys'. Check Your Head was a great musical album, and Paul's Boutique is the only album of its kind anywhere in rapdom or popular music.

Now stop and think about being an engineer on another album. I'm thinking of the time when the engineers were not allowed to listen to the sounds, were shielded from seeing the performers, had no idea when to start and stop recording, and could only figure out that anything was happening by watching the needles on the board. (Incidentally, part of that album turned up on the soundtrack to the video game Tekken 2, but that's almost a worthless point except for its aside value.)

It's a different ballgame when sound fidelity and not pop effect are the goals of the session.

I keep asking for Eminem's most impressive songs, but everything I keep listening to hints at slick, package production, a dependence on other people's work. You keep telling me about his production credits and I keep telling you to let them know that Eminem is being libeled by the people selling his albums.

Try this.

Consider:

• A photograph
• A collage
• A mosaic

Now, this is what it seems like to me. Someone has taken a photograph, but Eminem is supposed to have credit for it. From a bunch of photographs come a collage which is assembled. While Eminem legally credits other photogs (in this case, I'm thinking of guest musicians), his fans pretend that he is taking the photographs. Yet I feel like I'm looking at this collage, being told how well he can paste pictures together, am being asked by his fans to think of him as the primary photographer, and furthermore am being asked by those fans to think of the collage as if it was a proper mosaic.

And it's a free country.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

--Tiassa

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

Justme

Justme

It's not that they disagree with me. But I would hope for a more educated and civilized disagreement than justifying threats of violence.

True. See prior paragraph.

Not at all. But two notes apply here:

• Eminem's lyrical worth is not established; help me out. Explain the Margot Kidder line in terms of Eminem's lyrical genius.
•_Good is not a matter of taste; it is quantifiable according to convention. That something is popular does not equal a convention of quality.

Whether or not you like Eminem's music is, indeed, a matter of taste. Whether it is good music is not merely a matter of taste. What guitar sustains best? Which bends? Will a Les Paul be too dominant in its midrange and need to be mixed around the synths? How the hell do we make this sound without burning down the studio? (Note: Boiled in Lead, a Minneapolis worldbeat band, recorded their song "Red Lights and Neon" with the vocals going through 88 separate tube preamps; the heat from the gear nearly burned down the studio.)

Can I turn on a beat box? Now what happens if I loop four seconds of this horn section over and over? Hey, that's catchy. Now all I need is to rap over the top of it. A couple of sound effects will finish it out.

A good lyric can be independent of good music. Elements of good music may exist independently, but good music is its own entity.

Now we've got an interesting way of looking at it.

For instance, take the lyrical pop divas and R&B queens out there. I don't knock their vocal talent. But I'm not going to call them musicians in the same breath as Paul McCartney, Kevin Shields, or Brian Wilson.

I know someone who can sing and dance in Broadway-quality theatre. But aside from finding her pitch on a piano, she doesn't play musical instruments aside from her voice. She does not compose. She does not record. She does not consider herself a musician, but rather an actor, a dancer, a singer, and a performer. While musical elements do enter her work, she would not capitalize on that and call herself a musician.

Eminem's fans can claim whatever talent they think is necessary, but it doesn't make it so. Eminem writes good lyrics? I dispute that because I don't see a certain sense of continuity. Words are measured on their rhyming value and not what they mean. Seriously, explain the Margot Kidder line for me. Impress me.

Wow, is that really your perception of circumstances? Then perhaps I am correct in my assertions.

What I find so childish and stupid is the active defense of Eminem's conduct at the VMA. Furthermore, I must admit that I find the transposition of lyrical and musical qualities a discouraging indicator of the intellectual qualities of the debate. Yes, I might call on people to defend their listening to this or that, but I don't find that to be problematic when people call on me to defend my musical tastes. Savatage's Streets album, for instance. I have a thing for narrative albums when coherently devised, and Streets is one of those. However, I don't hold it up to be anything more than it was: an album that didn't get noticed when it should have. I didn't feel compelled to threaten violence against their misguided lyrical critics. And I don't recall them ever threatening violence against their critics.

Listening to Eminem does not equal an endorsement of violence. Defending his actions at the VMA does.

I'm aware of the phenomenon. But the consistency with which the women I know who like Eminem like him because they think he's cute and it doesn't matter what he says (so much for the artistic vision) and with which the gay men I know who appreciate Eminem want to f@ck him, I'm not sure the phenomenon really speaks to Marshall's benefit.

Wow, it really does translate that way to his fans ....

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

thanx,
Tiassa

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

wrong wrong wrong

pure rap is simply rap, there is no instrumentation or arrangement of sound in melody or harmony.


mozart is sooooooooooooooooooooo extremely popular. when was the last time you found any of his works on the billboard 200? (although, many classical pieces should be)


hahah, you are really dumb. i am done with you.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

Yes it is, brainiac...

1) Rap uses arrangements of sound in melody, and rythym.

2) Rap is also the use of vocal sounds possessing a degree of melody, and rythym.

As for Mozart,..perhaps you don't know that music didn't begin with the Billboard 200.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

To say Mozart's music hasn't been popular is idiotic...But then again ALL your trolling posts are idiotic, so I'm sure no one's surprised.

 

1,2- rap, by definition, is a monotonal talking. that is not melodic.
rhythm alone does not make music. try again. added instrumentation (often synthetic to boot) inherently makes it not true rap.


of course mozart wasn't on billboard, however, the point you fail to grasp is that pop culture is not time independent. pop culture norms are inherently derived to be spontaneous.





everyone here is laughing at your idiocy.





now go back to swallowing negroid cum, you fellating sycophant.

 

Mozart

You know, I'm a fan of Mozart.

But popularity doesn't mean a whole lot when we stop to think that Mozart is most popular among people who are not classical musicians. As a matter of fact, I can draw a firm line and say that while other writers that I know appreciate Mozart, I can't think of a single musician I know whose appreciation of Mozart isn't tempered by the claim that he was a knock-off artist, or that Haydn did it better. Most, in fact, refer to Mozart as childish. Hell, there are Mozart pieces that I like, even the ones that were included in old Mario Brothers' games. I think of an old Doonesbury in which Mark Slackmeyer, shock jock, was trashing Mozart on the air. Absolutely beautiful. And the callers were hilarious; they sounded about as pince-nez as one could get without corking the other end.

As long as we're splitting hairs, though, ChristCrusher is correct in the assessment of pure and true rap, which is rhythmic and not melodic.

However, in the spirit of the current discussion, I will scratch my head at the sycophantic negroid fellatio. Can't say I've ever tried that.

thanx,
Tiassa

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

if Mozart had to play among an audience of today, being so selective as to What he'd play to Whom, i bet all he'd do is 1) hide under the harpsichord or 2) play the same note with his pinkie, over and over, while eatingi petit fours and looking at the audience with his tongue out.

Mozart was childish? Try to play scrabble while listening to his Requiem. I admit (as a music educator and performer) that he has written rather naive works, but this was his way of facing composing for idiots

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

And he's not even my fave composer. I go for Italian Baroque all the way!

 

Salamander:

Welcome to here.

Italian Baroque? Uber-nifty, fave composers?

 

Thanks.

Composers. Vivaldi, Albinioni, Boccerini, to name a few at 7.48am

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

Salamander:

Vivaldi always seemed a bit dry to me (although "Winter" from four seasons definitely kicks ass) . But Albinoni is wonderful. Not very familiar with Boccerini.

 

Vivaldi dry? DRY? whoa! thats the first time i hear such a comment!

Relax though, you have 450 concerts to browse till you change your mind

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

Re: Static

No one said he was playing a character. Why would he be playing a character?

??? Put down the booze my friend...Is this another bad attempt by you to trash talk...

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

The reason his album has a few producers on the credits, is because he collaberated with them on a few songs, nothing more.

I truly could care less whether you buy his albums or not, But to debate the quality of songs you never even listened to, makes no sense.

It would be like me arguing that the movie "Goodfellas" had no plot, without ever seeing it.

WTF? Who said you shouldn't be honest about what you see? And what does this have to do with your labeling of those who like some of his songs.

If you've listened to the reasons that many have gave, why do you continue then, to say that people don't buy his music because they think it's good, but because they think its cool. (which is what the quoted statement was reffering to)

Finally you get it...

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

LMAO!!! No one is going to get arrested for saying that, get real my friend. And why would he say "keep booing" to the girl?? LOL

If your story was right, Moby should have the police arrest Eminem immediately...right??

The world of Eminem fans?? Are fans of Eminem seperate from everyone else?

Also there was no violence, he didn't touch Moby at all. I have already said that I didn't condone what he did. Why can't you get that through your skull...

The only reason I even entered this thread was because people didn't know what started the problem between the two, and thought Eminem just started it that night.

My ego?? What does putting the situation in its full context have to do with hurting my ego???

I also think you totally misunderstand what we are reffering to when we talked about the characters in his songs. The viewpoint in some of his songs, is that of a character. For instance, in the song "Stan", in some verses he's rapping and telling the story from Stan's view, and others from his own viewpoint when he's writing Stan a reply letter. So NO, his behavior on the VMA wasn't in some character, he was just being lame. I hope I cleared that up for you.

That said, to make a big deal out of his trash talking, like you have, is pointless. He didn't touch Moby, and he committed no crime.

You call it a threat, I call it trash talking. We'll just have to disagree on this one...

I suppose this yet another attempt to label those who enjoy his music. A large percentage of the Beatles, Stones, and Nirvana's fan base thought the same way. I still respect their music though..

No, most of the people who don't understand his "artistic statement", are his critics. And most of them, like yourself, haven't even heard his songs.

How can you say his songs have no personal integrity, when he raps mostly about his life and opinions?

I already recommended songs to you, reread the thread.

You missed the point, once again. If you haven't listened to the songs, you have no place commenting on their content. It's like saying a movie you've never seen, is bad.

Many guys have been using phrases like "faggot" "bitch" "pussy" as insults to say a guy is wimpy. I don't like it and feel it's unneccessary, but it's doesn't make them homophobic, or anti-women. If he used it and directed it at a gay person, or if his context differed, I would agree with you. Fortunately we have common sense, and we can tell the difference between the two.

How would you know his "method of expression is weak", without listening????

Eminem's problem with Moby, wasn't about Moby's view of his music. It was about the lies that Moby was saying to the press.

And why do you say "critics", when he was only reffering to one guy???

Lastly, Saying that "I'll hit a man with glasses", while accepting an award, is no threat of bodily violence as you put it. It may be a lame overused line, but no threat.

We're not speaking about other musicians, I gave you a little bio about Eminem. Dre picked him up because he saw his talent, that's the reason. If Eminem waited 15 years you wouldn't care, so what's the point?

You are truly funny. Reread the quote I was responding to, maybe that will clear things up for you.

Considering that you haven't even heard his songs, your opinion of his message, means nothing.

You know nothing of this subject obviously. I seriously doubt you know what Eminem was doing in the studio.

I said I thought what he did was lame, and I didn't condone it. What the fuck is so hard to understand about that?

I also put in context why Eminem was feuding with Moby, because many didn't know. They thought that Eminem just started it that night.

Is that clear enough for you?????

What the fuck??? I have said MANY times, that I only listen to talk shows on the radio, and that I play CDs for music. Why do you keep saying that I like the music on the radio?????

Does your arrogance know no boundaries????

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

I would respond to the rest of your post, but it feels as if we're running around in circles. You pretty much say the same thing over and over again, so let me say this.

The reason I got into this thread was because some didn't know why Eminem was feuding with Moby.

As I have stated, Eminem isn't even my favorite rapper, much less favorite musician. However, I take offense to comments calling those who enjoy his music, unintelligent fans who only like his songs because the radio tells us so.

It's silly to have a debate when you don't even listen to his songs, and instead quote little excerpts out of context.

You view his actions on the VMAs as threats of violence, I view it as using a lame over used line as trash talking. We'll just have to disagree.

Frankly, I'm tired of this debate. I doubt either of us will change our opinion, so it seems rather pointless.

 

Hey dumbfuck(also known as ChristCrusher), since you like definitions so much, here's dictionary.com's take on rap music...

rap music

n : a form of vocal music in which rhyming lyrics are chanted to a musical accompaniment [syn: rap]
Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University


Is that clear enough for you????

As for Mozart, here's what i originally said.."I disagree, the Beatles were popular, yet not many would classify them in the pop catergory. The same could be said for most rock, rap, and country artists. Mozart is extremely popular, but I would never classify him in the Pop music category either..."

 

quoting a non-standard literary source for credibility, the last sign of a truly weak-minded wanker who has been thoroughly refuted by others.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

"yUo R teH geigh"

 

Re: Mozart

Actually it does have melody, I think I'll use another definition since "Christ Chrusher" loves them..

mel·o·dy Pronunciation Key (ml-d)
n. pl. mel·o·dies
1. A pleasing succession or arrangement of sounds.
2. Musical quality: the melody of verse.
3. Music.
a. A rhythmically organized sequence of single tones so related to one another as to make up a particular phrase or idea.
b. Structure with respect to the arrangement of single notes in succession.
c. The leading part or the air in a composition with accompaniment.
4. A poem suitable for setting to music or singing.

 

I would only accept rap as music when I'd see a definition in the Oxford Dictionary of Music, or a relevant edition that is solely responsible as to what is and can be defined as music and what not.