So MTV edited out Eminem being a bitch...

Discussion in 'Art & Culture' started by You Killed Jesus, Sep 1, 2002.

  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    37,148
    Thank you for a new low standard, Static76

    Nope ... Moby may be right. Two people I know share a memory with me. The thing is that I'm quite like Moby on this one: you'll have to excuse us for not being so obsessed with Eminem to have written this one down, along with the date and time. I think that's why you're so pissed at Moby, because he wasn't so slobberingly obsessed with Eminem as to have written it down at the time. But I did have the opportunity to mention this debate to a couple of friends and I can tell you this: I have, before, sitting in front of the TV, and saying: "Did he just say that? Was that what I thought I heard?" I have the slightest sliver of a memory of thinking, "That could be taken as anti-Semitic." I think that, on Moby's part, it would be a thin platform for public criticism, but I haven't heard Marshall say "Moby's wrong, I don't do those things and every word of it is untrue." I've heard arrogance and threats. That's why I say Moby gets to say he's heard it. I'm pretty sure that if we raided the whole catalog of Eminem's recorded words, Moby would find justified.

    The thing is that I'm not entirely sure Moby is lying. You can say it's a lie, but realize, all he had to hear was approximately two words, maybe even one, come out of Eminem's mouth, out of all of his press coverage up to that point.

    I've been wracking my brain for a couple of days trying to figure out what the hell Marshall actually said that day that caught my attention.

    If Moby has slandered Eminem--if there is no shred of anti-Semitism to be found--then why not obtain a legal decision to prove your point? After all, Eminem can embarrass Moby in court and then make Moby pay for it. On the other hand, I think Marshall knows he's said enough in the past for Moby to be allowed to say this without slandering him. I think that is why Eminem is so pissed that he has to threaten.

    And it's why I say he's scared of real musicians: real musicians have a certain scope of vision and bear a certain credibility that Eminem doesn't. Think of it this way: when the press comes to talk to Eminem, they want to talk about what people see, and the character of the show. When the press talks to Moby or other musicians, they want to talk about music. Ever read Mojo or Q magazines? Hell, they can probably be sued for libel for the things they've written about Eminem, and they haven't chosen to waste a whole lot of page space on him. Lyricists are appreciated in the music press, but if that's all you've got, you will catch some shite. If Marshall could sing, well, that would be one thing, but he can't, so he's looked upon almost like a boy band in the sense that his appeal is sheerly a novelty. Mind you, one of the reasons I've got a poor opinion of his fans is I still don't see how being sexy or "telling it like it is" makes him a good musician. As with boy bands and sexy-diva radio pop, Eminem is a performer, and he does seem very adept at getting attention.
    In general. Most days I find Eminem to be a stupid punk not worth devoting any thought to. But I'm getting sick of your pathetic targeting of Moby. Eminem was being booed by more people than that. Rather than learning what to say and not to say, he chose to threaten Moby. Perhaps Marshall shouldn't go around acting like a renegade hormone so often. Oooh, Moby was booing Eminem! I find it hilarious that Eminem's fans will defend the act of threatening violence merely because Marshall is too stupid to figure out any other way to express himself. It doesn't do much to augment my perception of his fans.
    I believe you're really reaching here. Are you denying he was talking to Moby? Are you denying that he said, "Keep talking, I will hit a man with glasses"?
    Oh, so it's just "trash talk", and not a threat? In that case, keep talking little woman, I will hit a dumbass. (And remember, you can't complain that I threatened you because it's just trash talk. And I might just keep that part of it up for a few days, just for kicks. After all, we trash-talk each other at this forum all the time. So keep talking, indeed. Keep defending that violence because you're also empowering me to conduct myself that way.
    So in other words, unlike everyone else who witnessed the moment, you're too stupid to know who he was talking to? After all, I will beat the fuck out of a dumbass. And remember, you can't complain because you can't prove I'm aiming that at you.

    So just keep talking, little woman. I will beat a dumbass.
    Keep talking, little woman. I will shoot a dumbass.
    You're right. I think I'll drop some E, go down to the nearest club, shake my booty to some Eminem, and then I'll go out on the street and "trash-talk" some faggots.

    Keep talking, little faggot. I will shoot a faggot.

    Oh, what? Am I getting just a little bit offensive yet? I hope so.
    Well, now ... it seems the foot is on the other leg ... er, wait.

    At any rate, go back and read those articles. What, are you going to accuse the author of lying about Eminem's fans?

    It seems the next logical step.

    Keep talking, little paranoiac. I will shoot a retard.

    (Are you tired of it yet?)
    Well, duh. If he could have "made it big" on his own, without the payola help, he would have.
    Musically or lyrically? I'm not sure mots of Eminem's fans understand the difference.
    You've never heard Woman is the Nigger of the World?

    The thing is that shock rock is old. When I think of those who criticized Alice Cooper's Raped and Freezing, I laugh at them. It's a harsh title, I admit, but it's a funny song. You see, when the critics criticized that song, he didn't threaten them. He just said, "lighten up, from what I can tell you have the song backwards". After all, that's a guy sprinting naked into Chihuahua.

    But if Eminem wants his commentaries to be taken legitimately at all, he's going to have to get better at it. Far better artists than he are forgotten in their efforts. I would hope his commentaries have some sort of sincerity behind them. After all, it's a pretty grim world he's casting, and if bitching about it is all he can do, well, so be it.
    I'll give it a whirl.
    I hope it's better than Papa Roach's aggravation at fathers.
    Music or lyrics?

    Keep screwing that up. I will stomp a moron's ass into a mudhole.

    Now then, whatever the fuck your stupid perceptual problem is, you can take it and fuck it yourself. You can put the attitude up your ass and lick it. Matter of fact, you can get down on your knees and be my urinal and I might just feel better about your living worth.

    Keep on babbling, zombie. I will knock the hell out of a dead-eyed idiot.

    Wow ... a new level of trash-talk.

    Thank you for making it possible, Static76. Thank you very much.

    And I don't want to hear a word of complaint from other posters, from moderators, or from our dear Porfiry.

    It's just trash-talk, right? It's not actually threatening.

    So keep whining twit. I will hit the stupid.

    --Tiassa

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  3. *stRgrL* Kicks ass Valued Senior Member

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    Tiassa?!?

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    Im shocked!
     
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  5. justme Registered Senior Member

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    moby is not the first to have said this..actually i think moby just heard about eminem through other complainers and he just copied what they said, without researching it himself..eminem have explained in interviews and responded back often enough about all his lyrics and all the criticism, so really why repeat all of that again? i think he figured he did enough explaining and got to tired of it with someone starting the whole thing all over again..

    ok so your point that moby is right, is proven by one little bitty memory you think you have, but not sure of?? yea great proof you have there, you better come with better things first before accusing someone of being a racist, anti-semitic or homophobic.

    eminem have made it big on his own in a way..he kept on signing in to competitions and making demo tapes, which eventually ended up with dr. dre who saw he got real talents...eminem was so broke at the time, that he wouldnt have had the money to get himself big, you need money for this because you need promotion, a good studio to record your things in and so on, so you really need to be signed for this..promotion will only do you good in the end if you have talent, because i can make my own music and get it played on the radio but i doubt anyone will keep buying it for years and years to come if i dont have talents at all. And you keep forgetting (to your convenience i think), he was a very respected underground rapper in detroit and had fans there without even any promotion or record deal whatsoever..
    have you ever read the magazine rolling stone?? sorry i havent ever read those magazines you told me about, because i dont live in the usa (i live in holland) so we got different magazines here

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    And no eminem doesnt sing (although he tries in the song hailie's song for his daughter) because he RAPS!! duhhh

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    . and magazines write about his music all the time more than about moby. but well if you like moby or eminem, is just a matter of TASTE, dont like him dont listen to him, its all fine by me, but he got talents as a RAPPER, yes not as a singer hahah that was just hilarious, made my day

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    lol sorry im not so obsessed about eminem that i can give you full out written pages of his interviews that i heard to proove you otherwise...but im sure i seen a lot more about eminem than you, so..i just go with my own ideas on this

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    oh yea and im not one of those girls that think eminem is sooo hot and thats why i buy his albums or that i seen this guys face on tv and thought hey everyone thinks he's great, i have to buy this because the rest of the world does..actually first after hearing several singles of him i didnt like him at all, until i heard the song 'the way i am', and after that 'stan', i thought: this guy really got some talents, so they seem to be right about this particular case. And i wouldnt even really care if he wouldnt make his own beats, i really cant be bothered if this even was the case, i just totally love his lyrics, and his ways to get me to think and make me laugh..

    tiassa you always seem to make my posts so much longer, while i never meant to talk so much, but with you i just keep going and going, well its fun

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  7. static76 The Man, The Myth, The Legend Registered Senior Member

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    tiassa's rant...

    First, I'm not pissed at Moby, as you stated. I could care less whether you or "your firends" like his music either.

    My problem is that Moby LIED about Eminem when interviewed, and said he was anti-semetic, racist, and homophobic. All of which are LIES.

    Please tell me where Eminem has ever said anything about Jews, you can't because he hasn't.

    Please tell me how he is racist. Most of his friends are Black, and I have never even heard someone suggest this. If Eminem ever said anything racist, the Hip Hop community would be all over him. Does Moby know something we don't?????

    As for him being anti-gay, he has constantly denied this and Elton John (who is no friend of homophobes), says he not homophobic. Since you missed it, here's his comments again:

    John is no stranger to sensitivity, but some might see such sentiment as contrasting somewhat with his ringing endorsement of controversial rapper Eminem, with whom John performed "Stan" at last year's Grammy Awards. Not only does John continue to praise the foul-mouthed superstar, he condemns the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, which vehemently protested Eminem's The Marshall Mathers LP (2000).

    "I think they are a bunch of a--holes, sorry guys," John said. "I wouldn't have [worked with him] if he was homophobic, and if he was he wouldn't have asked me."

    http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/14...005/story.jhtml

    You seem to be talking out of your ass now tiassa. You say your "pretty sure that if we raided the whole catalog of Eminem's recorded words, Moby would find justified". So in other words, you have NEVER heard anything from Eminem backing up your comments either...

    "My pathetic targeting of Moby"????????

    I see now, tiassa. In your eyes, it is wrong to give people the whole story of what happened between Eminem and Moby. I should just call him a punk (like you just did), and talk about how dumb his fans are..

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    I never said I condone what Eminem did at the VMA (it was lame in my opinion), but to say "he threatened violence", is an overreaction. He was trash talking to a guy who was booing him, that's it.

    No, he said "Keep booing little girl. … I'll hit a man with glasses."

    The exact quote doesn't have will in it...I'll sounds more like macho bravado, than a threat.

    As for me being hurt by your comments...Go right ahead my friend, although the other posters here may confuse you for an idiot.

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    *Static's ego is shattered as tiassa calls him stupid*

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    Don't worry, I'm sure your not aiming that at me. My guess is your looking into a mirror as you type.

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    OH NO!!!!

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    tiassa is going to shoot Pauly Shore....

    LMAO!!! I thought you already dropped some E, after reading your posts.

    Your not offending me at all tiassa, as for the English language...well.., that's another story.

    ONE author's opinion, does not represent the views of those who enjoy Eminem's music.

    Did you read the article I gave you, or the posts of others on this board who appreciate Eminem's songs???

    You just don't get it, do you. Eminem was known and respected for YEARS in Hip Hop, way before he had his breakout success.

    Radio play has help almost ever artist in the past 50 years, so why single Eminem out.

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    Why don't you state what you feel good music is here..http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10658. Enlighten us with your great wisdom...

    I see you saved the worst for last....

    Believe me when I say I'm not offended by your rant, tiassa. Your argument has been dissected and torn apart, so now the only thing you have left is to mock me.....so sad. Not to mention, you suck at trash talking...

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    I would ask you to reread your post tiassa, and see how badly you sound. You have truly made a fool out of yourself...

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    EDIT - Took out "The exact quote was "Keep booing little girl. … I'll hit a man with glasses." So you can drop the will part. The context of "I'll" over "I will" can be very different."

    Felt it wasn't needed in debate.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2002
  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    37,148
    Next time I'll be more obsessed about the day-to-day of someone I don't care about

    Then you obviously missed the point of what you're citing.
    I see racism, and I see homophobia. Anti-semitism is the big question, and, as I noted, Moby may be correct.
    Wow, you really missed the point of what you cited. I'm quite sure, as I said, that if I raided the whole catalog of everything Eminem said, I would find both what Moby was referring to and what I'm referring to. However, I'm not. You cannot prove that Moby lied until you review every word spoken by Eminem that Moby could have heard, and since I have a vague memory of Eminem saying something that someone could take offense to, I'm not entirely sure that Moby's wrong.
    The question is whether I want to write a doctoral dissertation on Eminem's lyrics. Frankly, I don't. But, since I"m too lazy to look back at the lyrics people have posted, I'll just say that if I listen to the "White America" song a thousand times, I should be able to invent a context that fits what Eminem's fans would like.

    • Racist: He admits his skin color is key to his fame in White America. Oh, is this a characterization or an "artistic statement"? So he exploits his skin color. I still think the line about if he was black he would have sold only half is horseshit. There is no way that his race can figure into the statement. Put the whole statement of White America in context for me, why don't you. I've almost got it except that he seems to fuck it up at the end.

    • Misogynist: well, first of all is the gender-oriented accusation that "they raggin" when some of the people who are pissed at him are, in fact, men. Quite frankly, when "bitch" is used as a noun referring to a woman disliked by the speaker, it's misogynist.

    You have to understand, his critics are generally a little oversensitive, but they are correct when they point out that he raises these issues.

    Homophobic:
    Yet we see:

    • He points out that in his song "Criminal" the lyrics go: "Hate fags? The answer's 'yes' " but doubles back to say "Relax, guy, I like gay men." He turns the question back to Loder. "Do I really hate gay people or do I not? It's up to you to decide." Later in the same interview Dr. Dre, who helped score the album, was less cagey with his sentiments. "I don't really care about those kind of people," he said.

    Fair enough so far.

    • "I've answered this gay-bashing thing many a time," he tells Rolling Stone. "If people would listen to the lyrics, I say, 'Half the shit I say/I just make it up to make you mad.' And you know what? I shouldn't even have to fucking explain myself. I could just say, "Faggot, faggot, faggot," and leave it at that. Even a song like 'Stan' is a message to critics -- like, look, this is what happens if somebody takes my lyrics seriously. 'Stan' is about a sick fucking kid who took everything I said literally -- and he crashes his fucking car, kills his bitch and dies."

    (I find it interesting that, even in sincerely attempting to defend his position, the best he can say is bitch, but that goes back to misogynist, and I'm into the homophobic section.)

    • "[N]obody wants to talk about the positive shit I'm doing," he says later. "There's millions of white kids and black kids coming to the tour, throwing their middle fingers up in the air, and all having the common love -- and that's hip-hop. Me and Dre are changing the world right now, as we're on this tour. I feel that we are making racism less and less and less. As far as gay people, that's their business. Truthfully, I don't care. It's none of my business."

    Poor Eminem. If he was a better artist, his critics wouldn't have these questions.

    The reference for that article is http://www.datalounge.com/datalounge/news/record.html?record=8847

    But here's the deal: I'm reading the lyrics to I Remember and it seems to me that there's a number of things that can be said about homosexuality in these lyrics.

    Are we supposed to take the song affectionately? A loving tribute? I mean, of all the shite Marshall slings in that song, I just don't see what homosexuality has to do with it. Given the invective and the repeated focus on the fuckin homo faggot sissy, I'm hard-pressed to not conclude he's got an issue or two with homosexuality. Help me out.

    And as I glance through Just Rhymin' Wit Proof, I'm hard pressed to explain why the issue is so damned important to him. And I can't figure out what the "hermaphardite" has to do with anything.

    Just nobody, please, tell me that it's some sort of free association or stream of consciousness.

    I see in his presentation that homosexuality is. Right now I'm looking around for a lyric that pretty much blows his quote about faggot having nothing to do with homosexual out of the water. But you'll notice that I'm not even dealing with the silly lines about sniffing 'cane or fucking a bitch barely potty-trained.

    I will, however, wonder about his frequent references to his mental state. Heck, I know he's screwed up. A lot of people are. But it's not an excuse to keep behaving poorly.

    Think of it this way: if he didn't rap about smacking bitches and being Dre's homeboy and being a white rapper in the first place, it's entirely possible that nobody would care. The most I hear from his fans is his lyrical genius, as such, and I'm just not sure where it is. As a performer, he sounds quite literally like a sadistic transvestite diva. Lyrically, sure, it rhymes but it's not particularly cohesive.

    I'll wait for better lyrical integrity and a broader mind than just getting up and complaining into a microphone before I'll give him the credit of being anything more than exploitative of bad taste.
    Oh, I'm so sorry for not being psychic. If only I could have been clairvoyant enough to predict that Eminem would find a way to be stupid enough to make it matter to me, and to have foreseen people telling me they're intelligent while defending a smarmy, childish threat of violence in lieu of a better response, well, yes, I would have written down the exact day and time, and what show it was on, as well as exactly what he said. Oh, forgive me. I know, it's blasphemy to imagine Eminem not being a really nice, good guy.

    As for Elton John, he's fully entitled to his opinion. I won't even imply that his financial troubles would compel him to work for what that performance was worth to him. Rather, the more I read Marshall's lyrics, the more I understand why people think he's homophobic. He never has anything nice to say about faggots, and that's similar to why people think he's misogynistic.
    Well, I just don't think Moby started it really affects the situation any. If Eminem had chosen a more dignified form of exchange, he would have had a clear upper hand. But Moby started it hardly justifies a threat of violence.
    To be specific, I do feel you've defended Eminem's threats. You've pointed out that Moby started it and gone so far as to say it's not really a threat. Eminem is a punk. And if his fans defend his behavior, they are dumb. Furthermore, yes, I have a problem with the fans of a lot of what passes for popular-and-apparently-therefore-good music. It's just that for all the stupidity of those acts, they rarely, if ever, get up and openly threaten. In fact, a funny story. I remember when one of NKOTB set a hotel room on fire. It was a pretty stupid moment in pop music. And then their fans. I actually had someone tell me it was my fault that it happened, that if people would just not criticize the band, he wouldn't have been so stressed out. I don't see any defense of Eminem's behavior as any more intelligent. If Marshall had said, "Keep booing, little girl, I can wreck a liar," he would have been well within his rights, asserted his position, and not invoked violence. I don't even care about the insult part of it. That's really between them. But the threat ... that's just not appropriate. And I'm not about to respect the intelligence of excuses made on his behalf.
    Are you a WWE fan?

    See, maybe in that testosterone-charged fantasy-land threatening violence is just "trash-talk".

    I remember finding that stuff entertaining until I was about 13 or 14.
    Macho bravado?

    I'm sorry, but that's just ....
    I can't imagine you would be. It's just trash-talk, after all.
    Their problem. This kind of shit means I'm a lyrical genius!

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    You can't prove I was talking about Pauly Shore! How do you know I wasn't talking about you?

    Er ...

    Uh-oh :bugeye:
    What does the English language matter? I'm a lyrical genius!
    First off, I'm not sure that answered the question. Secondly, being that I would much rather spend the time I would spend following this part of the conversation back to a point where I know or care what we're talking about actually having bong hits, I'll merely trust that you have, with that response, deftly and definitively settled the issue.
    I'll go back and read them again.
    There are many bands well-respected in their genres and communities that never break out. Part of the reason they don't break out is because they don't have hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy radio airplay with. Understand, it's illegal to buy radio airplay. Payola got busted early on. It's done a different way now but all three levels of it have pointed the finger at the others and said it's their fault. It's going to be ripped open again.
    That statement is completely incorrect.

    Radio play has helped almost every artist who in the past fifty years who could afford it. There is a reason marquee acts are so marketed now. It's a huge competition and the books still have to balance.

    Have you ever heard the band Floater on the radio? Neither have I. I pick them for a number of reasons. They're known between SF and Seattle, and back into Idaho. Everyone who hears the album is intrigued, everyone who sees them live is hooked. Why don't you hear this band on the radio? Because they don't have a couple million dollars to give to radio stations to buy airtime. Try listening to listener-supported radio ... while many of those radio stations are format-dedicated (jazz, folk, news, &c.) there are, at the college level, a number of contemporary-music outlets. Listen to them and hear what they're playing. Usually if they coincide with the Top 40 in any way, they're ahead of the game. And even their specialty shows (we used to have two great heavy metal shows) played real heavy metal and not Top 40 metal. Why? Because nobody wanted to hear it. To judge by that period: when Bon Jovi, Motley Crüe, and Poison ruled the charts, the rockers were ravenously calling into the local stations asking for D.R.I., Coven, Dark Angel, Motorhead, Sanctuary, and a host of bands you simply could not beg the commercial stations to play. Perhaps I'm spoiled; growing up near Seattle, I got to get away from commercial radio when Soundgarden, Nirvana, elements of Pearl Jam (Mother Love Bone), Alice in Chains, Mudhoney, and Screaming Trees were local acts. Watch the movie Hype! sometime. We really were that puzzled by what happened. What I'm getting after is that if you get outside the world that is listed on the Billboard Top 40, there's acres of better music out there. And the reason it doesn't get played on the radio is because of collusion between the record companies and radio stations. Payola is a well-known fact. Every time it comes up, Congress gets involved, that's how important it is to free expression. It equals a rigging of the marketplace.

    It is easy to understand Eminem's popularity. If there is something to sell--and, yes, controversy is a commodity in this sense, demonstrably more valuable than talent, by the way--then it is very easy if you're a major label like Interscope, for instance, to stack the deck and make someone famous. It is a highly-refined art form of its own that relies on the trust of a gullible public.

    It's not a matter of singling Eminem out. But people have mentioned that he's popular on the radio. Well, duh. With the reality of payola and the gullibility of the commercial-radio-listening public, it doesn't surprise me. If Eminem's radio popularity is an issue at all, the fact of payola is part of that consideration. It has nothing to do with singling him out.
    Well, I did in this topic offer a list of bands I think should be on the radio. In the meantime, I think your sarcasm is misdirected. After all, there is a question of musically or lyrically. I have charged that Eminem is afraid of real musicians, and yes, the implication of that is that Eminem is not a real musician. Yet his knack for rapping and his lyrics are what hear offered in his artistic defense. Hence I wonder if the response is musical or lyrical.
    Of course I suck at trash-talking at such a low level. In a more academic discussion, I can trash-talk with the best of them.
    Right, bravado. Check.
    Don't tell me you missed the point (gasp)!

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    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  9. static76 The Man, The Myth, The Legend Registered Senior Member

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    Re: Next time I'll be more obsessed about the day-to-day of someone I don't care about

    How??? My problem was that people were attacking Eminem for defending himself against the lies Moby said. Many didn't know that Moby is the one who started the feud.
    Are you kidding me?? You can't possibly be serious.

    If Eminem said anything anti-semetic, the ADL would be all over him. Every kind of "interest group" looks through his music with a microscope, looking for something they can protest about.

    It amazes me that you condone Moby throwing out damaging labels like that, WITH NO PROOF. I have never once heard someone say that Eminem said anything anti-semetic.
    I'm sorry, but was there supposed to be something racist here????

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    When he says his skin color is the key to his fame, he's talking about the fact that if he was a Black rapper saying the same things, he wouldn't the same amount of airtime nor fame that he gets. A Will Smith or Nelly can, but because their lyrics aren't controversial.

    The line about if he was black he would have sold only half, deals with the same double-standard I stated before. He's speaking out about the music industry and how it operates, not in anyway being racist.

    He has also compared himself to Elvis, in the way that he gets more fame than Black artists of similiar skills because he's more "marketable"....

    I don't see how you could see these statements as racist.
    When he raps, he's speaking from the view of a character in many of his songs, for example "Stan". Obviously the word "bitch" is very powerful, and conveys the feeling of the character in a powerful way. The funny thing though, is for the most part when he's not playing a character, he's saying bitch to a man and not a woman. Or to his mother who IMO deserves the label.

    The word "bitch" isn't exclusive to women, just go to a dog show, they say it all the time.

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    It is used alot today at men, basically calling them wimps and has nothing to do with women in that case.

    Our English language is a weird, ever evolving mess, isn't it...

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    I just showed you above why they're wrong.
    So far, no gay bashing...
    Once again he explains how he isn't homophobic, and talks about the mesages in his songs.

    As for saying bitch, no one said Eminem is the rolemodel for manners. Many people (unfortunately), use the word bitch in reference to women, But it's more similiar to when Blacks called each other "Nigga" in songs (I'm Black and hate the word, but some find it endearing).

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    Have we come to the point now in society that we must nickpick every single word a person says? Why do the gay activists who complain want to paint Eminem as anti-gay when he denies it, and constanly says he isn't? It's like the activists are telling Eminem he's homophobic, whether he wants to be or not.
    Funny you put this quote in your post, yet ignore how he talks about making racism less and less. He's talking about a common love between Black and White people. Doesn't sound like the words of a racist to me.
    NO, you have it backwards. If Eminem's critics were better informed and actually listened to his songs and words, they wouldn't have questions. In every article you posted, he has denied being homophobic. He explained his use of the word "faggot" as not in reference to gay people.

    Once again, Elton John said it best in referenc to the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation...

    "I think they are a bunch of a--holes, sorry guys," John said. "I wouldn't have [worked with him] if he was homophobic, and if he was he wouldn't have asked me."
    LMAO!!

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    , you must be kidding me. This song is a diss to Everlast (a rapper), they had a falling out and Eminem spoke to him "musically", I thought that's what you wanted..

    I think I'm starting to see your problem with understanding the context of Eminem's lyrics. Your reading them, instead of listening to them in the way they are said.

    Eminem calls Everlast, yes a faggot, but also a bitch, a sissy, and a cunt. It's OBVIOUS if you know the story of these two, and if you listen to the song, the context of it. He is calling Everlast names, just like opponents do in sports, or drivers on the freeway to some who cuts them off. To call that song homophobic is beyond ridiculous.
    LOL!! Once again, listen to the song. It's a freestyle song, where a rapper ryhmes things off the top of his head. He never even wrote that song on paper.

    I'm guess you've never heard of freestyling..

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    And how does saying the word "hermaphrodite" makes him anti-gay??
    His "lyrical genius" comes from how he creates musically characters and captures their emotions and feelings into song. After all, rap is musical poetry telling a lyrical story.

    I sincerely hope you don't read poetry the same way you look at rap, some works may offend you.

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    BTW- Keep looking for a lyric that contradicts his statement about "faggot", you can't find something that doesn't exist.
    LOL, I never said that Eminem is a well mannered guy, he's not getting any invitations from the Royal Palace anytime soon...

    Whose condoning what Eminem said??? I already said I didn't condone it, and I said I thought it was lame. HOWEVER, I think it is an overreaction to call it a "violent threat", you make it sound like he should have been arrested for saying "Keep booing little girl, I'll hit a man with glasses".

    So what if he hasn't said anything nice about gay people. I haven't said anything nice about Mormons, does that make me anti-Mormon?

    He HAS stated that he has no problem with gay people many times. Why do you choose to ignore this?

    Also, it's interesting that you would think Elton John (a man who has done ALOT for the gay community, and is gay), would associate with Eminem for financial gain. That's like saying I would hook up with David Duke for a little extra cash.

    By the way, what financial gain? The two performed at the Grammys. They didn't release an album together. I don't even know if they had a single.
    Ha has responded in song and parody before. No one said Eminem is the nicest guy in the World. The only problem he had was with Moby's comments and booing. He didn't do anything to Christina Agrilera, who he recieved the award from, in fact he thanked her. Even though they have been feuding...
    I doubt if many of his fans will deny he's a punk, his honesty and no hold barred attitude is what endears him to many.

    Of course, I was a big Ramones fan in my childhood, so maybe I can appreciate this kind of attitude better...

    No, haven't been a wrestling fan since I was around 12.

    Sometimes people trash talk, I doubt mind as long as it's done verbally.

    I'm surprised you never heard the "Stick and stones may break my bone, but words can never hurt me.." mantra in your childhood.

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    As I said before, I'm well aware of payola. But Eminem was known before and respected in the undergorund before he hit mainstream. Your problem has to do with the music industry, Dre had influence and was able to help Eminem to get mainstream exposure. Eminem still had to produce the music, just like any other artist.

    Your right, I meant to put Top-selling artist instead of just artist.

    No offence, but if you have no clue as to why he's popular.

    It's not about controversy as you say, but the raw honesty and emotion put into his songs. It's the images he paints into our minds, or the stories he tells, that we appreciate.

    Does controversy get him press, yes. But his first breakout song,"My name is", that gave his fame didn't have controversy.

    The controversy came after...

    Why do you assume I listen to commercial radio. I play CD's in my car, and outside of Howard Stern, or the occasional talk show, I don't listen to much radio. It's all crappy R&B, Pop, or awful Rap songs in LA.

    As I stated in another thread that I started "What is Good Music", I stated that I love many different forms of music. I've never been a Top 40 kinda of guy, my tastes are dictated by my connection with the music itself, nothing else.

    I clearly understood your point. My point however, is that you looked foolish in your attempt to mock Eminem.

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  10. justme Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    32
    first of all i think static76 really says a lot of right things, so i dont feel the need to say the same thing again, because he said it perfectly

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    few things though, it seems like you really reaching to find something tiassa, and the more you say, the more obvious it is that you know absolutly NOTHING about eminem, and just copy what other people say about him. you are desperate to twist everything around what he says (like the song white america) to see something bad in it..i give you some proof that you are really wrong...

    he never says anything nice about women?? and how are you so sure about that? look at these lyrics then (searchin- infinite album)
    Women Singing:
    Ain't no one special, special like you (4X)
    I been searching, but your the one I want in my life baby (4X)
    Verse 1: Eminem
    I'm reminiscing on your tenderness and the snuggling and teasing
    Missing what I remember, kissing and hugging and squeezing
    Bugging and weezing, I'm having trouble when breathing
    It's even tougher when sleeping
    But there's a couple of reasons that I'm suffering and grieving
    For loving and leaving, you all I'm thinking of in the evening
    You got my knees buckling and weakening
    Thoughts of nothing but freaking that I'm struggling to keep in
    And interrupt when I'm speaking
    I got some game that I'm preparing to run
    The way your lips sparkle and glare in the sun
    You got your hair in a bun, no matter what you're wearing you stun
    Cause your comparing to none, I wanna share in the fun
    I feel a passionate lust when I'm imagining just us alone at last with a touch
    I see you grasping to trust, but my intentions are good
    The seed is passing in dust
    I'm not asking to rush and answer immediately
    I just wanna be there for you and you to be there for me
    If you agree to repeat after me, I Love You (I love you baby)
    Cause I just need you to see, how much I'm eager to be
    Your man legally wed, your love's keeping me fed
    This is easily said, so you can lead or be led
    If you care to be down cause ain't nobody Like you no where to be found

    about his daughter in hailies song:
    Verse 1
    Somedays I sit staring out the window, watchin' this world pass me by/Sometimes I think there's nothin' to live for. I almost break down and cry. Sometimes I think I'm crazy. I'm crazy, oh so crazy. Why am I here? Am I just wasting my time/But then I see my baby, suddenly I'm not crazy. It all makes sense when I look into her eyes

    Chorus
    Cuz sometimes it feels like the world's on my shoulders. Everyone's leaning on me/ Cuz sometimes it feels like the world's almost over, but then she comes back to me.

    Verse 2
    My baby girl keeps getting' older. I watch her grow up with pride. People make jokes cuz they don't understand me, they just don't see my real side/ I act like shit don't phase me, inside it drives me crazy. My insecurities could eat me alive/But then I see my baby, suddenly I'm not crazy. It all makes sense when I look in her eyes.

    these lyrics are when he is Marshall in his songs, and not slim shady..
     
  11. justme Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    32
    about the anti-semitism, i never even heard his character slim shady saying anything about jews, or anything negative about them...but to see if there is anything i searched in a search engine on the internet and all i could find was that eminem does NOT insult jews...most articles about this subject says: what if eminem would hate on jews and blacks, would the freedom of speech then be tolerated?? obviously meaning he doesnt refer to jews...and a very funny fact even is that interscope records (the record label from eminem) is jewish, i didnt even knew this, but i found it on several sites on the internet, here a link to one of them: http://www.detourmag.com/faces/cattycorner/boygeorge.html so i doubt it that a label owned by a jew, would allow anti-semitism

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    only little thing i could find in eminem's song about nazi's, is this little part in the song fight music- devils night album:
    If I could capture the rage
    Of today's youth and bottle it
    Crush the glass with my bare hands and swallow it
    And spit it back in the face of you racists
    And hypocrites who think the same shit but don't say shit
    You Liberaces, Versaces and Nazi's watch me
    Cuz you figured you got me and this hot seat
    You motherfuckers wanna judge me cuz you're not me
    You'll never stop me
    I'm top speed and you pop me
    I came to save these new generations of babies
    From parents who failed to raise them cuz the lazy
    So grow to praise me, I'm makin em go crazy
    That's how I got the whole nation to embrace me
    And you fugazy if you think I'm a admit wrong
    I'll cripple any hypocritic critic I'm sicked on
    And this song is for any kid who get's picked on
    A sick song to retaliate to and it's called

    he spits this song in a lot of anger, you really would have to hear it instead of reading, sounds like he is really pissed of about racism and nazis..well thats all i could find about the subject, and actually moby was the first i have EVER heard accusing Eminem of this..its like static76 says, if he would really have said anything discriminating about jews, they would have been all over him...
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2002
  12. justme Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    32
    ok next accusation of moby: racism...i really cant see how he even gets this idea in his head...eminem have never even taken the word 'nigga' in his mouth, although his friends from d12 do use it, like static76 said, it's pretty common around blacks to say this with rap..but ok to proove he's not a racist..here's a picture of him and his best buddies (d12), now please drop the whole racism stuff because its ridiculous..
     
  13. justme Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    32
    last accusation from moby: homophobic...eminem like static76 have always denied in interviews that he does hate homo's, he even said after the grammies when he performed with elton john: if this doesnt proove that im not a homophobic, then i dont know what to do anymore..eminem always speaks his mind, denying the fact he's homophobic, doesnt fit in that picture, but here a picture to proove to you it's very unlikely that he's homophobic, because i doubt it you will hug elton john then

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    its funny that you think eminem should have said: no your accusations are wrong moby, while you think its ok for moby to accuse him without any proof?? that is very twisted..EVERYONE IS STILL INNOCENT BEFORE PROOVEN GUILTY, at least i thought thats what the usa was all about right??
     
  14. justme Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    32
    and another..
     
  15. NightFall Lazy Hedonist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,069
    just as a point.. Em singing with Elton was kindof an accident. When he was asked what it would take for him to perfrom for them, he said, "I'll only do it if elton John sings with me". Joking, and never expecting it would happen. then, to his suprise, they called and said "OK!".. so he went through with it.

    Tiassa:
    i listened to those songs you recommended.... and.. well.. if you like them.. thats your thing lol.. not really my cup of tea... any other suggestions?
     
  16. lokee Registered Member

    Messages:
    22
    I really enjoyed reading this thread. I think eminem is a fucking idiot personally, but to be completely honest he makes me laugh somtimes. He isn't talented musically, at all, in my opinion. Now, I agree totally with Tiassa on all but one thing. I can't see how you grouped System of a Down with the Puddle of Mudds and other bands like these. Lyrically, System's views closely resemble yours.
     
  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    37,148
    What do you want? I'm not going to pretend to find "Eminem" intelligent

    I just don't get what's so hard to see. No, he doesn't hate women or homosexuals yet consistently refers to them in negative light. Watch the movie The Rapture. And then I'll tell you that there is no personal deliberation in the characterization of Biblical evangelicals.

    Think of it in terms of what is important enough to express. If such things made no difference, they would not be important enough to express. Consistently, as I encounter more and more of his lyrics, I see negative associations between the lyrical perspective and homosexuality, and between the lyrical perspective and women.

    As for when Eminem's lyrics reflect him as "Marshall", well ... what can I say? At his finest he is pop tripe?

    I would say that Marshall is wrongly focused, but that's all a matter of life experience and opinion; as his experiences are different from mine, so his opinions will be different from mine. He has his whole career to make a coherent artistic statement. Until then I generally do think most of his critics are making a bigger deal out of it than they should be. But when he goes and shoots his mouth like that, what is he supposed to expect? I happened to catch Conan O'Brien's bit on the VMA. Naturally, poor Marshall was not cast in a good light.

    Like I say: he has the rest of his career to make a coherent artistic statement. How long that career is depends a great deal on whether or not he chooses to behave himself better. And no, I don't think he's that good of a lyricist. Maybe he is for a rapper, but what does that say about rap?

    Lastly, I think of other artists who are "well-respected" by their genres, in their communities, and by folks around the world who can't get radio airplay in their own hometown, and I truly do wonder about the strange appeal of the packaged bands. I admit, it pisses me off when disrespectful idiots get the record sales because that's all the consumers can manage to digest anymore while better music goes unheard. Many of us in the Seattle area chuckled about the soundtrack to the movie Singles. Someone was trying to force a situation with airplay. I mean, come on ... in the years leading up to that movie, Nelson was in the Top 40 and Sony had no clue what to do with the Screaming Trees' major-label debut Uncle Anesthesia. And what's funny is that, so the story goes, what happened in Seattle is accidentally the fault of Sonic Youth, who allegedly told DGC that they would sign but only if DGC signed this band called Nirvana, essentially on the premise that whoever was lucky enough to accidentally sign this band would wallop the hell out of anything DGC had to offer, Sonic Youth included, and that's how we landed with "Teen Spirit". Remember Soundgarden on the Say Anything soundtrack? Yes, Crowe was trying to let people know what was going on up here, and it was only after a complete and utter accident that everybody pays attention.

    Now, just think about that for a moment: stop and think about all the bands that the public, literally, cannot deny. The bands that get famous without MTV specials on the lyrical content. The kind of bands that get famous on the merits of their musical prowess and not a sequence of alleged façades meant to titillate and provoke.

    It just bugs me to see people defending the lower mentality of a pop-pandering freak while they could be spending their time listening to better music, be it classical or jazz or better rap, perhaps Andean tribal drums or Gypsy fiddling. People can listen to whatever they want to listen to, but it just seems ridiculous that they should attempt to justify or downplay Eminem's behavior. All that does is set a standard of when an utter lack of civility is acceptable among allegedly-civilized people. And, frankly, it's a pretty low standard, I think.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  18. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    37,148
    Lokee

    A couple of things I see about the popular guitar-and-drum "rock" going on these days is a certain amount of selfishness. Papa Roach, for instance. Okay, parental issues. And yes, Floater even sings to parental figures, so it's hard to pick on that in itself. But something about Papa Roach is just ridiculously simplistic and selfish ....

    That example for the extreme. It's just that in the case of bands like Puddle of Mudd and System of a Down, I hear a certain lyrical immaturity that takes a portion of a process I'm sympathetic to and declares it the whole. It's too shortsighted, and that I think is a concession to the necessities of playing the pop culture.

    The way I look at it is to consider social majorities. They make a bunch of silly musicians popular and leave more dedicated, more studied, more capable musicians without certain major outlets to reach the people, such as radio via payola. The social majority also reduced our presidential election to Bush and Gore, so .. you know? I find many good recommendations in the mass-expression of popular taste. But the finest work escapes notice of the pop culture crowd.

    I'm actually most interested in seeing how hard the industry shifts and what gear it drops into after Smile is released. There's a bunch of people's favorite musicians who happen to be musicians who the current popsters admire who are still waiting for the definitive statement from the unquestioned master of their own youths. It's already having its impact, since most of the music is available in varying recording qualities. But nobody can figure out exactly what is supposed to happen with the components and, while it's all wonderful for inspiration, the best-trained, best-educaed, most gifted of the pop culture will turn on the dime, so to speak, when Smile comes out. It's not a matter of what will happen, but a matter of how fast it happens. We may get a respite from collections of singles in the guise of an album. We might get a new golden era of rock and roll out of it. It's all a matter of how fast it happens. The album is 35 years late, but the matter of how fast it happens will best be determined once people figure out how far ahead of the current state of the recording industry the album will actually be. It's the album that scared the Beatles into making Sergeant Pepper.

    It's just that most of the heavy-rock bands currently enjoying popular appeal are aiming for it just a little too deliberately. They may or may not learn about that. If they do, then they'll have good futures ahead of them. If not, well, anything's possible, right?

    I mean, a full half of my iTunes library is mediocre music and worse. I don't deny the appeal of some pop-culture favorites, but more often than not, they fail to impress me. System of a Down is intriguing in the way Savatage is. They may go their entire life enjoying popular success but never finding the critical acceptance that comes from a community of like-minded who acknowledge one's legitimacy. In other words, they might never be taken seriously.

    A neutral example is Oasis. I keep waiting for them to blow my minds. But Mojo magazine, I believe it was, once interviewed a couple of legendary British songwriters whose names escape me. The two were asked about contemporary music and gave various comments, such as noting of Belle & Sebastian that English folk is a lucky pop genre because one needs not be able to sing .... One of them said, of Oasis, that it sounded like what he would get if he assigned his students to write him a pop song in ____ key. They were fundamentally sound as songs go, but that's all they were.

    Or Coldplay. I'm suddenly impressed by this band, but ... I wish they would stop with the love songs. If they're as good as I think they are, they won't need love songs. In the comparative, I still haven't given them the credibility they probably deserve. But this on the concession of love songs. Don't get me wrong, the Rheostatics have love songs, but such interpretations could be entirely wrong ....

    A great example of the abstract division I'm noting: The Pursuit of Happiness. Canadian band. Most mediocre band I've ever been fascinated with. But I absolutely love their mediocre albums. I like them, but I don't assert them to be particularly great. Or Tommy Shaw, guitarist for Styx. I have several of his solo albums. But I damn well put my foot down when it came to Damn Yankees. I mean, come on, at some point I've just gotta say no .... And then his 1998, post-Damn Yankees solo album ... hey, I prefer it to DY because while it's not particularly deep, it's a further coherent exploration in a fundamentally odd career that I've been aware of since I was a child. But the bit with Marina Sirtis reading poetry over a peace and love chorus has more artistic merit in it than most of the top 40. It wouldn't sound good on a car stereo, though.

    It might turn out that anybody of the pop-pander movements might wind up with massive amounts of credibility. It's happened before. But I'll acknowledge it either when it happens or when I can see clearly that it's going to happen.

    I'm just stoned & babbling

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    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  19. ChristCrusher Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    63
    who cares, one's a wigger, the others a fag.



    fukk off zog driven pop culture assimilation.

    fukk off emptyv.


    fukk off.
     
  20. static76 The Man, The Myth, The Legend Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    936
    Re: What do you want? I'm not going to pretend to find "Eminem" intelligent

    Let's just agree that Eminem's music is not your cup of tea.

    Yes, he uses VERY harsh language and slang in his songs. But there needed to convey the emotion of the lyrics to the listener. He's not teaching pre-school, he's making music. Personally, I think your looking for something that's not there.

    People have a right to criticize Eminem if they feel he's gone overboard. The only reason I got into this thread is because many didn't know the reason why he said that to Moby.

    I'm not sure what "artistic statement" your looking for, perhaps you can clarify it to me...

    You have a right to believe he isn't that good of a lyricist,...even if your wrong.

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    The fundamental problem with your point here, is that you keep associating Eminem's success with pre-packaged bands and pop singers. This is completely wrong.

    The reason Eminem finally made it big after many years of getting no airplay, was due to the producer Dr. Dre. Because Dre had his own record label and contacts with Interscope, he was able to get Eminem's foot into the door. He wasn't picked off the street and made into star by some company as you keep suggesting.

    BTW - If radio sucks that bad in Seattle, maybe you should start a petition or something..

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    Does getting airtime on MTV mean that the artist has no lyrical content.

    Perhaps you have a short memory, so let me refresh it for you. Nirvana (the band you keep claiming as the anit-Eminem type), got JUST AS MUCH airplay on MTV as Eminem. I'm sure the posters here remember watching 'Smells Like Teen Spirit' about 500 times on MTV. That song from Nirvana is also the MOST PLAYED MTV VIDEO EVER in the UK and Ireland.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/2166802.stm

    Hmmmmm...., so was Nirvana's success due to payola and MTV brainwashing? Do you see how ridiculous this kind of arguement sounds?

    No one is trying to justify Eminem's behavior, we're just putting it into context. If you don't like his music, don't listen.

    Eminem's not nearly my favorite musician or rapper for that matter, I just like some of his songs, that's it. I do find it strange though, that you call him pop... A group like Nirvana can get massive coverage from MTV in the 90's. Yet Eminem is pop because his coverage came today...

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  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    37,148
    Eminem: lowering the bar

    Convey the emotion of the lyrics to the listener? You know, I agree with Dee Snider, who once said, "Somehow Gee whiz and golly just don't cut it," but you've got to be kidding me.

    What emotion is Eminem conveying?
    On the first count, we can be glad. On the second count, no. He's writing lyrics and other people are making music for him. I thought we'd been through this.
    That's what I tell people who buy Eminem because they say they want something good. Of course, I don't have to say it often. Very few people buy Eminem under the pretense that it's good. Under the pretense that it's cool, maybe. But not many under the pretense it's good.
    Apparently they don't. If you criticize Eminem, you get threatened.

    Oh, wait, it's not really a threat, is it?

    Whatever.
    You're right. Nobody in this topic has mentioned the quality of his lyrics, the emotions he conveys, the context of his lyrics, or anything like that.

    Never mind.

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    (Seriously: is it forgetfulness? How about it's not that important? Or maybe you're a moron? People keep telling me about the lyrics and how I'm reading them wrong. What artistic statement do you think? Really? I mean, what, do I really have to put up with this from you, too? All parodies, satires, commentaries, and so forth aside, is it really your goal to demonstrate the correctness of all the badmouthing I've done of Eminem's fans? I mean, come on ... really, give me a freaking break!

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    )

    Here, let's put it this way: If Eminem would like to make a better artistic statement than, "Show me the money and watch me strut 'cuz I"m really that stupid!" then he's going to have to use his brain every once in a while. I might be more sympathetic to Marshall except for the fact that I saw the bit with the damn dog puppet. I mean, really. And then here sit his fans claiming misunderstandings and he didn't really mean that and it's not that big a deal and it's not really a threat. And now, with the artistic vision in jeopardy because those who think him violent or hateful are obviously wrong, although we see the spilling of the parodies and satires into real life as he spreads his machismo shite too thin, and suddenly the question is, "What artistic vision?" I think that was the damn question his critics asked!

    Wow. I've seen some pretty vivid demonstrations of my points before, but that was pretty f@cking cool.

    Thank you for that.
    I would suggest that you learn a little more about the recording industry. I know it's easier to deal with your alleged point if you undertake an either/or. But it's not one or the other. The discredit you do unto other musicians here is stunning. Think of it this way: there is a top 100. Okay? Easy enough? Now, that top 100 comes from about 500 possibilities. In addition to those 500 possibilities are 10,000 more possibilities that you, as a radio listener, or as an MTV viewer, will never experience. Why? Because Interscope and Sony and A&M and all those record labels make sure that they don't. Take a look at the tours they send him on, take a look at the promotional expense of keeping him in front of the public. Once they decide to go forward with a project like that, it's a stiff sell. I mean, really: Nirvana was good, but were they that good? Steve Albini got paid $3 million to engineer Nirvana's In Utero. The whole production of Nirvana's Bleach cost $600. Eminem need not be a member of the Monkees to have been propelled by the will of his record label at the expense of other hard-working musicians. It happens all the time.
    Actually, people in Seattle generally do the smart thing: we listen to CD's. We learned a long time ago that the listener's only job is to listen and pretend to enjoy it. Radio is best used in Seattle for baseball games in the car.
    Are you intentionally missing the point or is this one of those things I get to hold against Eminem fans?
    This paragraph tells me that you have no idea what you're talking about. Think about it: some bands are just popular because they write good music. Some people need their spotlight extended by specials about the controversy surrounding this or that lyric.
    Nope. Nirvana's success was specifically due to being in the right place at the right time. Six months earlier or later and it might not have gone. But one thing they didn't need was MTV sitting there running half-hour essential advertisements for Nirvana. Some bands become popular based on their musical merits. Hello? Of course, I understand if the concept confuses you.
    You're right. Nobody told me it was no big deal. Nobody told me it wasn't even a threat. Nobody told me that Moby started it. Whatever you say.

    This is the thing that kills me in this: I am arguing an exceptionally tenuous position. Literally, I'm having fun because Eminem decided to be a two-bit prick in public. In case you hadn't noticed, people have been complaining about my don't like-don't listen policy. Apparently I'm not being fair to Marshall by not spending money on his albums and not wanting to listen to him. However, what kills me is that there's a couple of people in here behaving like absolute children. First defending, minimizing, justifying, Eminem's behavior. And now this, "No one is trying to justify ...."

    What-ever.

    Seriously, if I ever needed any greater proof of the quality of Eminem's fans, I think I pretty much got it. The logic I'm looking at is about on par with the Bush administration's version of logic, which only reinforces my doubts about pop culture. After all--Bush, Gore, Aguilera, Spears, Backstreet, Sync, Eminem ... the public has such good collective taste. I mean, reality television, the "Anna Nicole" show ... just stop and think about it for a minute.

    And when you figure that one out, try the point you blew so badly above. The one about airtime, MTV, content, &c.

    So when you figure out the one about the collective taste of the public, think about what that means in terms of a performer who relies on controversy to stay famous and a musician who relies on talent and skill.
    Well, what would you prefer I call him? The King of Rock and Roll?
    When you stop and think that musicians such as Herbie Hancock are holding Kurt Cobain's songwriting up as a "standard" (as in "Nirvana set a songwriting-quality standard"), I would say that Nirvana's musical merits achieved warranted their fame. Nirvana changed rock and roll and also pop songwriting. Eminem is pop because he changes nothing except the crass factor. Eminem is pop because his merit in the pop culture comes not from his musical prowess but from his political controversy and his brand of acting and performance art.

    When Eminem can write a song as good as "Negative Creep" or "All Apologies", then we'll talk about Eminem as a musician.

    Ever watch an American car race? Go fast, turn left?

    Ever watch a proper auto race? Where you actually have to drive the car around various corners and so forth?

    That's about a fair comparison. Eminem is like watching WOW or Outlaw races at SIR during the summer. Nirvana? That's a little more like F1 in Monaco.

    Or we can look at it this way: Nirvana raised the standard, set a higher demand of quality. Eminem lowers the standard.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  22. lokee Registered Member

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    Tiassa,

    I can see your point about System of a Down, I just can't see them grouped with Puddle of Mudd. What about Tool, or Rage Against the Machine? Both are very popular, but i don't think that they fit into this group. What's your opinion on these bands?
     
  23. justme Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    32
    tiassa, the more i read your posts, the more i think that everyone who doesnt agree with you, in your eyes are stupid or dumb or a kid or whatever..just because i dont agree with you doesnt make me any of that..you keep on saying about eminem not good as a lyricist, the music isnt worth it blahblah, but just get it through your thick skull for once that that is a matter of TASTE. is that so hard to understand for you?? i dont like many music either, like one friend of mine listens to the kelly family

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    , but i dont bash her for that by saying they have no talent, because that is my opinion, and she obviously thinks different about it, who am i to say that she listens to the wrong music? for your information i hardly like any 'pop' music..i actually despise it. so therefore i hardly ever listen to the radio either..plus they dont play eminem here on the radio

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    , well it was nice to have this discussion, but i dont feel like keeping this on and on, obviously you got your opinion, and i got mine, and i just cant agree with you, and im getting tired to hear that im a kid or stupid or everything and that i have to defend myself just because i listen to eminem, and that that would mean i justify violence or something...really the funny thing is actually that i got a gay friend and that person likes eminems music and doesnt feel offended and im a woman and i dont feel offended by his music either..well im stopping now, i have some people to kill and some gays and women to beat up so i have my hands full for today

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