for someone who is meant to be arguing compassionately about slavery i would say a few million matters quite a lot. everybody who was shipped out of africa eventually died.........wow. do you think that a fair few slaves may have died of...............old age?diseases that were untreatable at the time?injuries etc. if that is the criteria that u are using to define deaths then the nazis are probably responsible for close to 100million deaths.
Enmos, Those numbers seem wrong. Read the Black Holocaust. I have it at home, and its estimates start at 20m.
Also: "Slave traders acquired slaves by purchasing them from numerous ports in Africa. They were able to pack nearly 300 slaves and approximately 35 crew into most slave ships. The men were normally chained together in pairs to save space - right leg to the next man's left leg - while the women and children may have had a little more room. The captives were fed very small portions of corn, yams, rice, and palm oil which normally was just enough to sustain them. Sometimes, during the day captives were allowed to move around, but many ships kept the shackles on throughout the journey. It is estimated that 13% of the captured slaves did not survive the journey before the 18th century. Diseases, starvation, and the length of passage were the main contributors to the death toll. Many believe that overcrowding caused this outrageously high deathrate, but amebic dysentery and scurvy were the main problems. Additionally, outbreaks of smallpox, measles, and other diseases spread rapidly in the close-quarter compartments. Slave ships might take anywhere from one to six months to cross the Atlantic depending on the weather conditions at sea. The deathrate rose steadily with the length of voyage, as the risk of dysentery increased with longer stints at sea, and the quality and amount of food and water diminished with every passing day. The Europeans realized how expensive slaves were and made drastic changes to help more captives survive the passage after 1750. Sick and dead slaves could not be sold in the new world. With advances in technology and an emphasis on nutrition and hygiene, the approximate deathtoll decreased from 20% to 5%. Traders used faster ships and started using preliminary forms of vaccinations for diseases. Precise records are not available to provide an actual death toll, but it is estimated that as many as 8 million slaves may have perished to bring 4 million to the Caribbean islands. This number doesn't even include the slaves brought to North or South America. " http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Middle:Passage.htm
If they died of old age, then slavery would have played a role in that as well. You don't live as long if you're forced to work day and night and aren't fed properly. If you suffer an injury, then chances are you suffered it doing something you were forced to do as a slave. Catch my drift? The criteria isn't just the death toll. The criteria includes living conditions (nobody under the Nazis lived in worse conditions than the slaves), time length (hundreds of years, many generations), and lasting impact (most Nazi victims have recovered by now). In totality, the Black Holocaust is the worst crime, taking into account the different and unique aspects of it.
there are a lot of slaves still alive in the world today.its nothin new and its never going away. the very fact that when you say "slavery" it refers to a short period of time with a certain group of people should give you an idea of why people take exception to it. like i said,its happened for millenia and its never going away. just because african slavery is the most documented doesnt make it the worst.and i find it very insulting to compare atrocities anyway,seeing as noone nowadays can claim in anyway to identify with the hardships their ancestors have gone through.
Well, I'm a little skeptical of your link, because it includes the 1400s, even though proper records weren't available until the late 1600s/1700s. They're all estimates, right? Some say higher than, and some say lower than, 30 million.
Kadark, Kardak, Kardak .......... This is so tragic ...... the muslim slavetrade from Africa is estimated from concerning just less than 20 millions up to 180 millions black slaves ............ I remember last time I went to Zanzibar .......the muslims proudly presented me of slavecaves , where they kept the poor bastards untill shipped to Yemen, Saudi Arabia .... and further up .... Last time I went to Ethiopia I visited tribes , who told me , that the tradition of lip plates were to stop muslim slave traders to capture them ........ Muslim slavetrade from Africa , did not stop until the 1940´s ........ Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Low estimate .... but also much lower estimate for the transatlantic slave trade.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade High estimate ....probably biased .... he, he ... http://www.christianaction.org.za/articles_ca/2004-4-TheScourgeofSlavery.htm Anyway , I am not here to defend transatlantic slave trade ...... I´ll only say, that many people world wide were into slave trade .... and the muslims kept the tradition until some 60 years ago ...... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
i am trying very hard not to descend into direct insults...... slavery played a role? if you are going to take into account indirect causes of death most nations have millions of deaths on their hands. as for you second paragraph......... 1.what do you know about living conditions under the nazis?are you f-ing kidding me? 2.most nazi victims have recovered by now?!?!?!?!based on what?! i know this is just the internet,but that made me genuinely angry.think about what they have been through and how you are talking about it.having a number tattoed on you and seeing your friends and family EXTERMINATED... not for any reason,not to any end.just exterminated for being of a kind. "the Black Holocaust is the worst crime, taking into account the different and unique aspects of it." basically,you have just read a book and now think you have opinions. think about it. there is nothing much unique about black slavery except the scale.
As am I, dickhead. I wouldn't call being a slave an indirect cause of early death. It pretty much is the reason why so many Africans died young. By reading about it. How else would I know? For fuck's sake... Based on the fact that the territories the Nazis controlled are practically flourishing today. The fact that the victims of the Nazis are not the most impoverished people in the world, and enjoy living in first-world nations. Think about what the tens of millions of slaves, separated from their family and homeland, went through for generation after generation. The Holocaust is nothing in comparison. And what have you done better than I? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
do you have the average life expectancy of a slave and the average life expectancy of a person living in africa 200-400 years ago? you say recovered?what do you mean by that?is the majority population of these "flourishing" countries you are talking about jewish/gypsy? i am definately not arguing that slavery was in anyway acceptable,but i think it is incomparable to the holocaust. thanks for calling me dickhead by the way,makes me take your debating skills all the more seriously.
Sorry, I can't take somebody seriously when they compare five and a half million deaths to about thirty million deaths in the span of centuries of brutal slavery. As I said, the only thing comparable to the Black Holocaust is the Native American Holocaust. What happened to the Jews doesn't even measure on this scale.
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. its not 30 million deaths though,you said that yourself.you said that 30 million slaves were taken from africa.that does not equal 30 million deaths.
And those people died as slaves, you inbred moron. Last time I checked, every single estimate for the deaths resulting from the Trans-Atlantic slave trade was higher than the Holocaust estimates. It pisses me off that people have little to no knowledge when it comes to Black slavery. In so many countries, Black kids aren't allowed to learn about their history, yet things like The Diary of Anne Frank are mandatory reading.
inbred moron...again,nice.my mum is from canada and my dad is from england so the chances of inbreeding are fairly slim.but thanks for your concern. can you please address the point of average life expectancy? what do you mean people have little to no knowledge of black slavery?!if you asked anyone in the developed world i would place a bet that 80-90% would be at least aware of the african slave trade. and also,what do you mean by "arent allowed to learn"?are the books censored?are they banned? i went to school in england and when i was 13 i was given a project about slavery in a music lesson.(about blues etc)
People who are slaves living under substandard conditions will die sooner than an average person. If you're a slave, you're going to die sooner in all likelihood, due to the conditions. Either that, or once you outlive your usefulness on the fields, you're disposed of like dirty laundry. Knowing that it happened isn't good enough. The average knowledge of the Jewish Holocaust (perpetrators, duration, geographical setting, causation, etc) is much greater than the average knowledge of the Black Holocaust. Proof? Just read this thread! The books aren't banned, but the discrepancy between mandatory studies concerning the Holocaust far outweighs the mandatory studies dedicated to the Black Holocaust. All the tributes to the Holocaust victims, the memorials, the museums, the books (mandatory for classroom studies), etc. Holocaust victims even get reparations for what their families suffered. What the fuck do Black people get?
ok.,ill bite and play devils advocate. die sooner than an average person in africa? what were the conditions in africa at that time?prosperous?hardly... disposed of like dirty laundry...in how many cases? in how many cases were slaves executed when they could no longer work? so what?!those are only two events in the history of the world.i dont know that much about the armenian genocide.do you? ok.,im guessing you are from america,in which case you have a point.here in europe the holocaust is more relevant as the history of that war is all around us,also most people are very aware of which people/cities were involved in the slave trade here.actually,maybe i should change most to"most people i know",but then outside of about 2% of the population no one gives a flying fuck what happened more than 3 weeks ago. i would be with you if you were campaigning to make it madatory to study the civil rights movement/jim crow laws.as they are recent history and relevant to todays society.(in america)
They weren't very good, but it doesn't take the sharpest knife in the drawer to recognize that they were observably better. In all cases. Slaves were used to make their masters money. If feeding you outweights (financially) your labour contributions, then you're going to be disposed of. Simple as that. Of course I do. I am Turkish, after all. Fair enough.
