Simple method to transmit thoughts that always works.

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by kwhilborn, Feb 28, 2007.

  1. Lakon Valued Senior Member

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    1,117
    Yes, though many experiences have an effect on ego.

    Quite a jump there from claims of abilities to actual.

    They (the claims) may not diminish their experience, but neither do they provide proof of actual psychic functioning.

    Yes, it happens all the time. Sometimes though, ego is not a dirty word IMO - it's one of the drivers of achievement.

    99.99% of it may well be.

    Therefore you gotta stop carping at science for not saying 'yes sir yes sir three bags full sir'

    I won't comment on the OP other than to say he's been asked for some proof repeatedly in various threads but hasn't given it.

    I don't disagree with that. The only difference I think, is that you and I have a far different definition of 'psychic'. I would guess that 99% of what you'd call psychic, I'd call psychotic, or hallucinogenic, or accute human perception as per the 'Blink' article.

    Yes, claims of grandeur abound in many areas.

    'cause they're human ? Humans share an abundance of symptomatic thoughts.

    (PS - no matter, but I don't know what NPD's and DSM are)
     
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  3. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    One of the reasons for failure to discuss these issues properly is that your posts indicate that you have failed to consider the issues raised adequately. You seek to make a schizophrenics severe symptomatic experience(s) thought of as common and typical of all humans. They are not by many orders. Their experiences of acute sensory awareness have been shown to be most debilitating. Not all human s suffer such extremes of sensory perceptions.

    As I have indicated previously, I use the word psychic to try and fit in with common usage. I personally consider all experiences to be objectively valid. I do not believe in subjectivity per see.
    NPD = Narcissistic Personality Disorder. = [old umbrella term] Paranoid Schizophrenia.

    DSM is the psychiatrists main source of legal diagnostic guidance regarding those presenting with mental health issue symptoms that lead to societal dysfunction. [The current DSM-4 is being replaced with DSM-5 as we speak]

    The great thinkers in the field of psychiatry are far from stupid!

    The use of the term Narcissistic in NPD is most apt IMO. So to is the term "Disorder". Having had discussions with two Senior Professors of Psychiatry in an informal dinner setting has led me to hold their opinion and thoughts in high regard. Unfortunately, a lot of people presume to be of similar caliber when it comes to critical thinking [ including many, if not most psychiatrists ] [They have achieved professorship in this field for good reason as this field is one of the most challenging]

    You will note that NPD does not directly deal with the subject of psychic phenomena or communications but concentrates on how the Narcissistic nature of the Ego is often exaggerated by experiences of an unknown genesis that the client has difficulty accommodating into their regular lives.

    Regardless of the above the sheer fact that all diagnosed NPD'ers present with symptoms that are strikingly similar is very indicative of a societal connectivity regarding the causation of those symptoms.
    The most common and extremely debilitating of such is the acute awareness of that "psychic connectivity" that leads to an acute awareness of "personal vulnerability" thus severe paranoia.

    The break though normally is accompanied with thoughts like "I am not alone" where as before people experience such they commonly believe they are isolated from each other.

    Until that experience of "inter-connectivity" is accommodated adequately the person will suffer terribly. Having people shove "bad science" down their throats only exasperates the situation.

    Unfortunately the psychiatrists CAN NOT legitimize "inter-connectivity" or even encourage it's acceptance due to the severe legal/career repercussions and currently held "in ignorance" scientific/philosophical belief in absolute existentialism, as you and so many others have supremely demonstrated with your posts. As is also witnessed in the debate between Science [existentialism] and Theosophy [universal connectivity]

    "...and the battle between individualism and the social collectivism continues...***"​

    &​

     
    Last edited: May 24, 2013
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  5. Lakon Valued Senior Member

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    I use the term 'psychic' in it's accepted definition, at least here in this thread and in these forums, ie, psychic phenomena.

    - can you move an object by mind power alone ?
    - can you read my mind ? What three digit number am I thinking of ?
    - can you see accurately some other place ?
    - can you predict the winners of the trifecta at Randwick ?

    Those things would be evidence of psychic abilities if displayed persisitently.

    You use the term in another way - to encompass much psychological / psychiatric activity. That's fair enough, but it is important to recognise the difference in the words usage.

    You will also note however, that even with MY usage of the word, I do not deny the possibility of the existence of psychic phenomena.

    All things are interconnected ? Well, OK - I don't deny that either. I suppose that in some way, at the cutting edge of science / physics, the same thing might be said. 'Thou canst' stir a flower without troubling a star ' (Francis Thompson) .. that sort of thing. But what of it ?

    Edited to insert the word psychiatric
     
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  7. Lakon Valued Senior Member

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    PS QQ, I should also add, I know little about psychiatry and do not intend, and am unable to, participate in a conversation with you about it, particulary all the aberrant states you mention.
     
  8. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    And any person with limited experience would have to say no to all due to the criteria of "persistency"
    so what of it?

    the first thing that has to be acknowledged prior to any serious discussion is that we are all indeed inter-connected at a fundamental level. We have to be for pheno such as time dilation, speed of light invariance and gravitational invariance to hold absolutely true universally.
    Once this is thoroughly realized and acknowledged, discussion about how humans may naturally utilize this connection instinctively, intuitively and on occasions, pseudo - deliberately, can take place.
     
  9. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    caution accepted ... thanks.
     
  10. Lakon Valued Senior Member

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    1,117
    What of it ? To establish that psychic phenomena exist, on a scientific basis, one would have to .. OK, forget about 'persistency' .. that's just my word. One would have to replicate such phenomena. However, I accept that absence of evidence, is not necessarilly evidence of absence.

    I don't doubt we are .. all things are .. interconnected at some fundemental level. When you can predict a few trifectas at Randwick, PM me.
     
  11. Lakon Valued Senior Member

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    1,117
    Caution ? Nah .. I just wanted to clarify that I know sfa about psychiatry therefore, there's little point in me getting involved in such a discussion.
     
  12. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    I do realize you wrote the following in "good fun", however I could get narky [use it as a good example of attitudes generally] and ask: What is the relevance between the two statements?

    and
    Acknowledging being connected at a fundamental level is fine but to extend that to precognition or the ability to make predictions on a possible future is another. People have enough trouble coping with this connection as it is with out extending it to what I would consider a very mature usage of that connection. Some of the "Yogi's" have spent entire lives trying to mature their egos to cope with higher levels of connectivity and failed to achieve much head way.
     
  13. Lakon Valued Senior Member

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    1,117
    How do I get my initial quote to appear above and be requoted within yours ? Still haven't worked that out .. anyway, my ..

    When you can predict a few trifectas at Randwick, PM me.

    .. was intended to continue to draw the firm differentiation I have in my mind (and presumably, consistent with this forums context) that 'psychic phenomena' are such a thing as this, rather than extreme psychiatric conditions. Of course, there's another point to it - and one that I've also been saying here for some time. That is, that IF YOU COULD predict some trifectas at Randwick, the LAST thing you would ever do is PM me, or anyone else. Thus, affirming my belief that you, I, or anyone else is most UNLIKELY to know about anyone with such an ability.

    Did you know for instance, that there are multi millionares in Sydney (and presumably elswhere) that have soley been punting for the last 20 - 30 years. We barely know of such people because of their extreme desire for anonimity .. and the scant information we do have, is against their wishes - they occassionally pop up in the news .. not even in the racing press, but in matters of litigation where they have to describe their occupation and their earnings, asset worth, source of income, etc.

    Now, are these folk psychic or just excellent form readers / observers ? A bit of both possibly - at least the ones on the very top.

    Next, my ..

    I don't doubt we are .. all things are .. interconnected at some fundamental level.

    .. was not really intended to be tied up with the above. Simply speaking, I do believe that at some fundemental level all things are connected. But I don't spend much time trying to make contact with the moons of Jupiter or the dolphins that just crossed the blue Pacific at Bondi Beach ..

    Still, it is an interesting thought, isn't it ? To me a pleasant persuit rather than something to agonise over. Here, look check out a poem by one Francis Thompson - it's called The Mistress Of Vision, and it is a strangely beautiful, magical poem that you might really enjoy and be very imressed with, as it seems to be right down your alley. I earlier qouted a few lines. Here are more, but you should download the whole thing and read it (if you search for it, ensure you get the full version - it is quite long, and often shortened).

    XIX

    Where is the land of Luthany,
    Where is the tract of Elenore?
    I am bound therefor.

    XX

    'Pierce thy heart to find the key;
    With thee take
    Only what none else would keep;
    Learn to dream when thou dost wake,
    Learn to wake when thou dost sleep.
    Learn to water joy with tears,
    Learn from fears to vanquish fears;
    To hope, for thou dar'st not despair,
    Exult, for that thou dar'st not grieve;
    Plough thou the rock until it bear;
    Know, for thou else couldst not believe;
    Lose, that the lost thou may'st receive;
    Die, for none other way canst live.
    When earth and heaven lay down their veil,
    And that apocalypse turns thee pale;
    When thy seeing blindeth thee
    To what thy fellow-mortals see;
    When their sight to thee is sightless;
    Their living, death; their light, most light-
    less;
    Search no more--
    Pass the gates of Luthany, tread the region Elenore.'

    XXI

    Where is the land of Luthany,
    And where the region Elenore?
    I do faint therefor.
    'When to the new eyes of thee
    All things by immortal power,
    Near or far,
    Hiddenly
    To each other link-ed are,
    That thou canst not stir a flower
    Without troubling of a star;
    When thy song is shield and mirror
    To the fair snake-curl-ed Pain,
    Where thou dar'st affront her terror
    That on her thou may'st attain
    Persean conquest; seek no more,
    O seek no more!
    Pass the gates of Luthany, tread the region Elenore.'
     
  14. Lakon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,117
    Missed your last bit about the Yogis. Yes, I agree. Similar to some monks in my old country, Greece, on Mount Athos and others. They secrete themselves in bare caves for 10, 20, 30 years, living on alms of the occasional tourist or sympathetic resident. What do they achieve ? A wasted life - nothing !

    I've never been able to get this resignation from life for a higher cause .. if that higher cause exists, it gave you life in the first place ..
     
  15. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    20,121
    a heap of stuffing about using copy and paste and the quote tool.
     
  16. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,121
    Especially if others "panic" psychically when they realize someone has an advantage. So learning the wisdom of "keeping unto oneself" is vital for development. After all the keeping of secrets is essential if one wishes to know them.
    Simple answer is that you can''t have one with out the other as all are part of the same mental tapestry.
    In this case they would be excellent form readers but also have a high level of intuitive nouse as well. A horses form may look great but with out the intuitive insights the "form" is no more that probability orientated and we all know where that leads.

    In the horse readers case I would suspect that it is not the form of horse of choice that is most important. It is more the form of all the other horses that may be. The over all intelligence required to pick a horse is staggering when you think about it. Even then you have the "luck factor". Which can only be diminished by solid intuitive awareness. The successful gambler may rely on a twitch in his right eye for example to indicate right or wrong...and learn to trust it over time. The twitch being a "stress" related to intuition/instinctive type experience in this case.

    The poem "The Mistress of Vision" is rather beautiful although looking for it's relevance to "inter-connectivity" spoiled the first reading.

    It reminds my of Rudyard Kipling's poem "If" and how he attempts to show a way for a man to become a man.

    If you can keep your head when all about you
    Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
    If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
    But make allowance for their doubting too;
    If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
    Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
    Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
    And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

    If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
    If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
    If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
    And treat those two impostors just the same;
    If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
    Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
    Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
    And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:

    If you can make one heap of all your winnings
    And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
    And lose, and start again at your beginnings
    And never breathe a word about your loss;
    If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
    To serve your turn long after they are gone,
    And so hold on when there is nothing in you
    Except the Will which says to them: “Hold on!”

    If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
    Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
    If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
    If all men count with you, but none too much;
    If you can fill the unforgiving minute
    With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
    Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
    And—which is more—you’ll be a man, my son!


    One notes also that Rudyard was an Anglo Indian Freemason.
    And Freemasonry have been dabbling with psychic advantage for eons.

    The higher cause ultimately is always their selves or dare I say the "god" with in, wishing to emerge into 4 dimensional space... aka "God complex - Narcissistic Personality Disorder. [The will to power - Friedrich Nietzsche] The potential of the human form is considerably more than most would dare to admit. The yogi's have experienced at some point that potential, as indeed you also have, [hypnagogic states] and their own inner ambition to reveal it leads to the life choice they and other less stable minds may make. IMO
     
  17. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    20,121
    An interesting aside using a some famous words [by ?] as inspiration:

    The "wannabe" God asks his guide:

    Odin: "I seek the Goddess, how can I find her?"
    Guide:"To find the Goddess you must first become a God"
    Odin: "How do I become a God?"
    Guide:"To become a God you must first become a true Man"
    Odin: "But I am already a man?"
    Guide: "And the Goddess stays hidden"
    Guide: "Become the "true" man, become the God and the Goddess will reveal her self"


    chuckle...all about chasing the lotus, Lilly, the holy grail, the female principle, the Kuni,
    When Yang [Male] chases Yin [Female].....we have perpetual movement....etc

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    It is only when Yin chases Yang instead that Yang can be considered truly Male.

    aka Benny Hill style!
    [video=youtube;VUOe_hLg7Bo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUOe_hLg7Bo[/video]
     
  18. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    20,121
    Notes on the Mistress of Vision.

    Luthany maybe an oblique reference to Lithium Salts, commonly used to manage bipolar or mood disorders at the time and killing a few people along the way until it was banned. [reinvented in 1948] or most likely to the mental place that opium took him*

    "Elenore" maybe an oblique reference to the Arabic meaning of the name "God's light", as he appears to be strongly interested in Eastern mysticism in his reference to the Himalayas and hidden peoples, yet strongly influenced by Christian beliefs at the time.

    I would hazard a guess and feel that "The Hound of Heaven", his most famous work, was written after "The Mistress of Vision" and probably after he was put on a medication regime of Lithium Salts [mentored by his saving benefactors], which were popular at the time. The time line suggests a correlation between the advent of the world first medication for severe depression using Lithium, his severe mental state due to opium abuse [etc?] and his writings.

    He may have had exposure to Madam Helena Blavatsky Sacred Doctrine [Theosophical society] also regarding his reference to the Himalayas, hidden people, [Monastic ascetics Somati-caves]

    *and the word Luthany may possibly be found in that Sacred Doctrine.

    He was an interesting writer....

    How did you discover The Mistress of Vision?
     
  19. Lakon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,117
    I discovered The Mistress Of Vision because over the years, one often sees the lines ..

    All things by immortal power,
    Near or far,
    Hiddenly
    To each other link-ed are,
    That thou canst not stir a flower
    Without troubling of a star


    .. quoted in various books on cosmology, specualtive science, mysticism, etc. Those lines intrigued so I searched around and found the whole poem and also thus discovered Francis Thompson many years ago (there is one or two other unrelated Francis Thompsons in English literature).

    I had always had a deep interest in English poetry of that period, and was utterly delighted to find him. In a second hand book store I then found a very old book - 'The Complete Works Of Francis Thompson'. It was over 100 years old - published around 1907 near he time of his death. I bought the book and discovered this fascinating character. The same book is now available on line for free download here ..

    http://archive.org/details/completepoetical00thomuoft

    I have read him over the years with great interest. What you say about the possible origins and meanings of his use of Luthany and Elenore is interesting. I had not previously thought about it along this lines, but will cogitate on this.

    You did strike a chord with me in your use of the term 'bipolar'. Yes, I have definitely got that impression from reading all his material. He was a devout Catholic, and I also formed the distinct impression that he had a prediliction for little girls.

    In fact, thinking about it now, I don't know that I can recall a more 'bipolar' English poet - certainly of 'The Lakes' period, anyway.

    Reading through his complete works, some of it strikes me as .. well, garbage .. religious rantings, girlie issues, or boring, uninspired non events.

    BUT - there are about 4 poems of his that make up for this. The Mistress Of Vision is one. The Hounds of Heaven is another. I will spare you the frustration of trawling through the rest of his stuff and tell you what the other two are IMO.

    One is 'Asumpta Maria'
    http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/assumpta-maria/

    On the surface, it is deeply religious and Catholic - but it is nonetheless one of the most mind blowing pieces of poetry I have ever read, because inter alia, it can be read at so many levels.

    The other one is 'To A Snowflake'
    http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/to-a-snowflake/

    Many English literature scholars agree that Shelleys 'Ode To The West Wind' and Keats 'Ode To A Grecian Urn' are two of the most beautiful examples of the use of the Eglish language. I agree, but would add a third - this one. And though it again speaks of God, the levels within it reverting back to nature are amazing.

    Francis Thompson was indeed a fascinating character.

    More later and hopefully a response to your earlier.
     
  20. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    20,121
    Yes some beautiful words, clearly indicting his awareness of that interconnectedness which reinforces his devotion to "God's Light" [Elenore]. I am not convinced that he was a strong Catholic as the writing so far indicate a more pseudo christian ethic of the theosophical society brand [ a "new ager" ]
    The Hound of Heaven is most impressive in describing mans fear of and yet eternal quest for oneness with the divine [ones self] a state of ego-centricism which keeps the person separate to oneness as to achieve oneness is to destroy the existential ego.

    It is obvious to me in his writings that he was aware of the fundamental paradox of wanting to be one with self [God] yet desperately avoiding the ego cost of doing so. Unavoidable and paradoxical relationship between the collective and the individual. Once aware of this paradox by virtue of actual psychic experience and not just words, ones mental tapestry can quite quickly become overwhelmed with the "immediately apparent" but not necessarily so, futility this leads to. [thus depression and mania co-exist with in everyone, normally simultaneously but revealed in a sequential fashion as Bipolar Mood disorders [etc?] depending on circumstances.] and the advent of NPD. [paranoid Schizophrenia.]

    The paradox is unavoidable and immutable. As it is what actually safeguards the existence of individual perspectives [ freewill of the individual ]

    The paradox does have a scientific premise yet to be realized in the "Attraction Paradox" evidenced as part of Zero Point Theory and is actually quite easy to describe and test for.
    src: Attraction Paradox

    The paradox is the reason why psychic connectivity can not be proven according to the existing scientific method. [why the "law of attraction usage" postulated in this threads OP will never be proven as consistent beyond a statistical "golden ratio"* due to the lacking of target consent -thus invoking the paradox]
     
  21. Lakon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,117
    Having thought about it and done some checking, I'm of the opinion that Luthany / Elenore are not references to Lithium Salts / Gods light. As I said, he was a devout Catholic. The following link I believe, gives the more likely scenario.

    http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/312599

    He did have quite a penchant for the Virgin Mary, as his 'Asumpta Maria' poem displays. I think you're also drawing a long bow with the Blavatsky reference.

    Edit;
    PS - interesting to also discover that Tolkien was an admirer of his.
     
  22. Lakon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,117
    From 'maybe an oblique reference' to 'clearly indicatiing' ? I'm not so sure. Also disagree with your psuedo Christian ethic opinion of him. I think more likely he WAS a devout Catholic. His material displays a 'God is natural law' kind of ethos, which was quite a lot stronger in Catholicism back then.

    Yes .. maybe ..

    You've lost me with most of that.
     
  23. Lakon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,117
    Freemasons ? Yogis ?

    Wordsworth had it down patt ..

    There I beheld the emblem of a mind 70
    That feeds upon infinity, that broods
    Over the dark abyss, intent to hear
    Its voices issuing forth to silent light
    In one continuous stream; a mind sustained
    By recognitions of transcendent power,
    In sense conducting to ideal form,
    In soul of more than mortal privilege.
    One function, above all, of such a mind
    Had Nature shadowed there, by putting forth,
    'Mid circumstances awful and sublime, 80
    That mutual domination which she loves
    To exert upon the face of outward things,
    So moulded, joined, abstracted, so endowed
    With interchangeable supremacy,
    That men, least sensitive, see, hear, perceive,
    And cannot choose but feel. The power, which all
    Acknowledge when thus moved, which Nature thus
    To bodily sense exhibits, is the express
    Resemblance of that glorious faculty
    That higher minds bear with them as their own. 90
    This is the very spirit in which they deal
    With the whole compass of the universe:
    They from their native selves can send abroad
    Kindred mutations; for themselves create
    A like existence; and, whene'er it dawns
    Created for them, catch it, or are caught
    By its inevitable mastery,

    Like angels stopped upon the wing by sound
    Of harmony from Heaven's remotest spheres


    http://www.bartleby.com/145/ww300.html
     

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