Show THAT Homeopathy works

I agree timokay, you must make a claim, and have the materials to start the testing. However, it might also be helpful to use these materials and monitor the patients health just to check if anything is happening before wasting time and resources on a formal scientific test. In other words, just like the dowsers, run a simple "control" so that you cannot go back after the trial and claim that the products were not made right or the dowsing rod was broke etc. Your claim here sounds exactly like the claims of most dowsers- that the area/conditions/equipment was flawed but dowsing works. Well, Hahnemann and company have had a long long time to get their act together. Why can't homeopaths agree on what works and what does not?? Surely the false prophets are failing at every turn? Shouldn't this be obvious?

 

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Scott,

Re. Which University?, I will gladly e-mail the answer to you or anyone, personally, if they agree not to post it, but on a World forum like this, I prefer not to divulge too much personal information about myself.

It was accepted as the best Full Honours degree course in Britain in these subjects (though there was not much competition).

I am not sure about your motives. My main profession has been systems analysis for many years. This subject intrigues me because of the glaring fact that there is a very significant logical problem. When all the quibbling is over, it will be found that "both sides" are right - they solve the same problem in very different ways.

 

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Quasi

It would help to get the ball rolling if Btox or yourself would try the BRYONIA test. You would then clearly be in the position of believing that these medicines DO have clear effects, certainly not placebos. You would believe that, and that makes all the difference. I was surprised when BTOX offered to do the test (no-one bothers) because I do not know why people have so little commitment to resolving this question. It's a chicken-feed task, yet nobody does it.

It was the first thing that I did, tried half a dozen of them. It shows a stand-offish nature of people here (and elsewhere)..much prefer to just talk about things than actually DO SOMETHING - why not make a contribution?

Your comments are general - please qualify with some actual examples. I have access to many Scientific Journals/facilities at the University..can easily look-up any references you provide.

You are also "standing off". I will not be doing anything for you. But if you want to participate in cracking this problem, let's do it together.
There are very fundamental problems in this debate. First, you need to start at the beginning with some groundwork, as stated previously. I have a very readable version of this groundwork.

 

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Tim, I'll play.

Tell me a brand and potency level that I can find in the U.S. and meets your criteria.

I'll then do a proving and report.

 

The problem with the BRYONI (or equivalent) tests is that they do not show anything, except that you take some substance and might get some symptoms. For it to have ANY value at all, we must have certainty of the content of the thing.

To be perfectly blunt: If you send me something you call homeopathic medicine, how can I know you are right? It might be something else.

And after having validated the integrety of the medicine, we need the double-blind test to show that the percieved symptoms are CAUSED by the medicine.

---- But you already knew this.

Hans

 

The placebo effect problem is true, but I'm also not sure about the agent Timokay is suggesting. Is 6C a low enough potency to guarantee there is no active agent present in the conventional chemical sense? Placebo effect aside, if it's got a pharmaceutical quantity of toxins present I don't think it is a fair test of 'proper' high dilution homeopathy anyway. This may just be a technical quibble, someone needs to do the arithmetic.

The placebo effect problem is much more serious, but I think Timokay is not going to believe that no matter how often he is told. The fact that he keeps suggesting it indicates that he doesn't understand why blinded placebo-controlled testing is done, so it's a bit of a waste of time going through your protocols- he doesn't believe it's necessary if you'll just take his Bryonia.

 

Duplicate post after browser crashed. Sorry folks.

 

Scott,

This is info condensed from first pages of this topic:

NELSONS or WELEDA are the biggest brand names in Homeopathic medicines. Both are US companies with worldwide distribution. Any pharmacy with Homeopathic medicines will have one or both of these brands; Nelsons is the biggest and best.

Go for the BRYONIA 6C, which is one of the most used medicines (6C is the potency), chosen because it is one of a group that Hahnemann explained as having particularly noticeable symptom swings - so that anybody taking it would notice. Choosing medicines at random would not work as quickly and as effectively as Bryonia.

This test is just to show that H. Medicines have unmistakable symptoms, not that they will cure a particular disease.

The subject should take 2 pills at two-hour intervals, between meals and preferably on an empty stomach (e.g., first dose first thing in the morning), until 5 doses, i.e., 10 pills are consumed (unless the symptoms appear before all 10 are taken, which is likely, so stop the doses then unless you want more symptoms).
Don't touch them with your fingers (the packet is designed so that you can pop them straight into your mouth) - two on or under the tongue, let them dissolve or suck them slowly.

So, if you were to continue taking more than 10, then many more symptoms would appear. This is called a "Proving" of Bryonia.

Symptoms will be unmistakable, in other words, physiological effects, forget the Placebo effect.
These symptoms will then wear off over less than a day after stopping.

Fear not, they will not hurt you.

Here are the symptoms of Bryonia. Very numerous. Don't be frightened by this list. Only a few symptoms will appear with such a brief test.

http://www.minutus.org/bry.htm

My experiences: Some vertigo. Could hardly turn my head - it felt "full". Felt as though I could not breathe in enough air. I felt warm and comfortable even with the weather being freezing.
My hands, and the rest of me, felt like ice but my brain said the opposite - stifling heat. I got a bad chill/flu because I cast off the bed covers that night. So, don't cast off the bed covers.

 

Scott

Timokay's link gives a list of symptoms. Apparently there are "The 1st edit, gives 510 symptoms, the 2nd and 3rd 781", so you can make up almost anything and it will fit really well.
Try looking for these;

"She did not rightly know what she was doing (in the room), worse when lying, for twenty-four hours (immediately)"

"Aching in the eyes for sixteen successive days."

"On the border of the left upper eyelid an itching mingled with burning and tearing."

Obviously if its your right eye then the test fails.

"Horrible cutting in the bowels (in the forenoon) as if she would have dysentery, without evacuation of the bowels"

So don't take it if your going to a football game that afternoon.

etc etc etc

Oh, I'm sorry, but it's just so funny that anyone can take this stuff literally.

F.x

 

Hans,

I said I would send a sealed, unopened, manufacturers pack. Buy it yourself from the nearest stockists and I'll send you the money, if you prefer. If by mail, I will send only to UK or Europe residents...takes too long to elsewhere. U.S. people buy it yourselves - I can send a draft.

There is a serious lack of commitment here. Everyone trying to get out of doing this simple practical test.
Solving problems ALWAYS needs some practical work like this, even early on...and especially now. There is plenty to do, and a frivolous matter like this should not use up a month.

Francine is Manon Thebus (man on the bus) in the BBCi Horizon science forum and is nothing but a troublemaker, has blocked all progress for months. I have asked him many times to GO AWAY but he never does. He is also believed to be Bengy Mouse in the Homeopathyhome coffee shop. See for yourself in TIMOKAY, "Tim Kelleher" topics. He winds up people for a living. He would like nothing better than to scupper any progress on this. Why would a man use a woman's name on this forum? ..and be afraid to use his own name...says it's the cyber-stalkers he is afraid of- but HE is the cyber-stalker, and a sick one to boot.

 

Scott, Hans and other mature people,

From he/she/it, "Francine", (.a.k.a.: "Ouss" - Of Unknown sex and species)".

You people do not know enough about Homeopathy to understand Ouss's diatribe, and that's why he is doing it.
And, he won't go away. He actually claims to have a Ph. D, with papers on Medline,(not that it's an exclusive club, having about 12 million papers/letters, many from the Alternative Medicine Journals); a so-called Researcher, yet spends all day spamming on these various forums. I suppose, when people like him get their funding, they just sit on their backsides, surfing, until the money runs out. He will never reveal his name but I am going to contact the various British Research Councils/Foundations about idle people like this.

I will explain ALL these symptoms of Bryonia, AND THEIR SIGNIFICANCE, and those of all others in due time.

Now is not the time...must walk before you run.

The "de-furring" of Bengy Mouse (Ouss) in the Homeopathyhome coffee shop, topic "On the Scientific Validation", probably one more of his various aliases....but better not to waste any time on it. "Francine" is definitely "Man-on The-bus" in the BBC Horizon Science Forum, and there has been plenty of bloodletting over there.

I have some more info on you Ouss. Do you want it all out in the open or will you go away? Make up your own mind.

I know how to handle these people - might get a little ugly for a while - but it's the only way for undesirables.

Yes, it's all a bit of fun for him, as he has already admitted many times, but why shouldn't some serious work be done on these forums as well?

Eeek, look at the time!

Tim

 

Look! No Hans.

Scott, Hans, Quasi...where the devil have you been for two days?

Tim

 

Nasor presents us with the typical sophistries, presumptions and TOTAL ignorance of homeopathy such very ignorant and ridiculously arrogant supporters of allopathy are famous for:

Well, gee, golly, Nasor, baby, do you suppose that it could instead be YOUR KIND who will not think logically since we're talking about conclusions from MILLIONS of cured cases and provings over two centuries, i.e., FACTS from EXPERIENCE rather than from mere logic/theory/models, my VERY ignorant opponent and antagonist of health who seems to wish upon all others the very agonal, horrible and premature allopathic death you so very much deserve?

Or are you going to again prove yourself tremendously ignorant and ASSUME, like the jackasses you guys are, that your logic supercedes the phenomena of the universe?

Seems like we've been here before, doesn't it, my very IGNORANT opponent?

A better question to your very IGNORANT kind is always: Why do you people oppose homeopathy and favor the total self-admitted quackery of allopathic medicine?

And why do you fools always do so on an a priori basis (meaning from "specious logic," which indicates that your basic assumptions and their CONSTANTLY erroneoous conclusions/results prove that such a priori "logic" is WRONG) when any very superficial examination of your observed facts and the logic to explain them proves BOTH to be wrong?

We base our conclusions on verifiable facts from EXPERIENCE; whereas, your very IGNORANT kind base them on mere theory.

Tell the folks your theories, my very IGNORANT opponent.

Tell them why you guys base EVERYTHING on logic and totally IGNORE experiential facts.

Give them a history lesson in science, and then tell them why you guys ALWAYS say you're right but are ALWAYS later proven to be wrong.

Tell them why you think medicine should be based upon the natural sciences, rather than on the SCIENCE OF MEDICINE or SCIENCE OF THERAPEUTICS (i.e., Hahnemannian homeopathy), when you guys show such a wretched history as scientists and allopathic physicians.

Gee, golly, Nasor, do you think you idiots could be totally wrong since your VERY logical sophistries ("specious logic") are ALWAYS proven wrong by the FACT that the murderous physicians and nurses et al., whom you IGNORANTLY support, are self-admitted therapeutic incompetents (i.e., QUACKS, you bozo) in ALL viral, chronic and psychiatric cases and are therefore destroyers of health and actual killers?

When are you going to finally read the instruction book (the ORGANON OF MEDICINE) and conduct a high-potency self-proving, like the good little scientist I know you want to be?

 

Hans

 

Nasor opens his big mouth still further and lets his ignorance flow as a demonstration of why he supports total quackery and remains TOTALLY ignorant of homeopathy:

That's a TOTAL lie!

First of all, Hahnemann was a pioneer in both bacteriology and virology (the "study of viruses"), and only somebody TOTALLY ignorant of homeopathy would make such an assinine remark!

Also, Hahnemann was a master chemist with no small number of original discoveries and compounds attributed to him (e.g., Mercurius Hahnemanni and Causticum Hahnemanni), and he was a master pharmacologist whose pharmacopia was the standard allopathic work of his day; so, once again, only somebody TOTALLY ignorant of homeopathy would make such an assinine remark!

Note these key words in the guy's remarks: when no one knew "how or why people got sick."

He is assuming, per his exceedingly ignorant and presumptuous kind, that this is important or in any way necessary to know in order to cure.

But homeopathy has PROVEN (despite their TOTAL ignorance of this proof and the arrogance that underlies it) for 213 years that such arrogant assumptions about disease and drug mechanisms (viz., Disease-Entity Theory and Receptor-Site Theory) are NOT necessary to know and DO NOT lead to actual cures, only to the appearance of them and dynamic suppressions and disorderings of diseases BY PHYSICIANS!

This is one of the reasons we have so many incurable diseases today, thanks very much to allopathic medicine.

When we bring before them this evidence for chronic diseases skyrocketting since the time when they almost destroyed homeopathy in 1910 with the infamous FLEXNOR REPORT of the Carnegie Foundation, they claim that this is a consequence of people living longer, but that is a TOTAL LIE!

The statistics show that it is completely independent of aging, and our cures and specifically the time-element of the Law of Cure prove that THEY are responsible for it!

For those who do not know the time-element of the Law(s) of Cure, it reads as follows: During cure, symptoms disappear in the reverse order of occurence.

We thus see lots of symptoms and diseases from previous years arising as a consequence of allopathic suppression of some natural disease or due to the vile concoctions of INSANE allopathic Minds called vaccinations.

Also, he assumes -- like the jackass he and his kind are -- 1) that all diseases have a discrete or proximate cause that can be discerned and 2) that it is necessary to know this in order to cure.

Again, homeopathy has proven these to be false assumptions of totally vain and arrogant fools.

These are, moreover, JUST TWO of their many erroneous assumptions constituting their TOTALLY backward, effete and antiquated model of health, disease, therapeutics, the nature of existence and the nature of the universe, NONE of which they can prove are other than remotely true and ALL of which we can prove are either totally wrong or very superficial and inaccurate in that way.

They arrogantly call this pathology, medical science and the natural sciences, which is a total farse since they thereby IGNORE the 10 Laws of Medicine that makes homeopathy the actual Science of Medicine or Therapeutics, which supercede ANY and all of the natural laws in chemistry and physics in exactly the same way that Newton's Laws of Motion are superceded by Einsteinian Physics.

How VERY ignorant and stupid of you guys, and it's arguably INSANE (ala the ignorant fool here named Hans) since they are thereby left with supporting the TOTAL quackery of allopathy.

This guy and his VERY ignorant kind think that Disease-Entity Theory -- and its extensions along the lines of the anciently famous Doctrine of the Proximate Cause, which has done yoeman's service to all of the myriad INSANE allopathic theories of diseases and disease causes for millennia -- is applicable to chronic diseases, but it is NOT!

This is, moreover, just ONE of the many reasons such jackasses cannot cure ANY of them and why they support killers in allopathy and very much deserve and are destined for death by those killers.

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It's true that homeopathy does NOT adhere to the ALLOPATHIC concepts of pathology and the therapeutics from such nonsense.

But those concepts do NOT lead to ANY cures beyond generally banal bacterial diseases, which we cure just as readily and WITHOUT any problems like antibiotic-resistant bacteria since we use ultramolecular drugs that permit the organism to do away with the little beasties and correct their consequences, and are thus a TOTALLY wrong approach to therapeutics anyway.

Their notion of diseases rests at the heart of this error.

They assume that a causative agent is the key to therapeutics for the above INSANE reasons and their propensity to being total jackasses with big mouths CONSTANTLY proving they're ignorant fools with deserved iatrogenic destinies.

They therefore accept, like the jackasses they are, the identification of diseases per pathological categories of them.

Here is where they make possibly their most fundamental mistake, and remember that we are talking about millions of jackasses in all allopathic fields and all of the natural sciences.

They assume that naming of diseases per their COMMON symptoms can be used for therapeutic purposes, but homeopathy has proven this wrong FOR 213 YEARS and them jackasses for as long.

----------

Okay, jackasses, here we go; try to keep up this time since I have REPEATEDLY said this here.

My specific suggestion to all of you: screw on your other head this time, or pull it out of your bottom orifice where it doesn't belong anyway.

There are two basic kinds of symptoms: COMMON and UNCOMMON.

Those that are COMMON are identified by their being suffered in common with everyone in some disease-diagnostic category.

Ignore the idea of causative agents, for that has absolutely nothing to do with such categorizations except as regards infectious diseases, all of which are a very MINOR fraction of all diseases anyway, bozos!

Diseases in allopathic terms are therefore nothing more than statistical abstractions because EVERYONE who's still curable also has UNCOMMON symptoms!

Assuming I do not have to endlessly repeat that fact, we thus proceed.

To thus ignore UNCOMMON symptoms, which all allopathic Minds INSANELY do, is to view diseases in an arbitrary way according to something that does NOT exist ANYWHERE in the world, i.e., it is a TOTAL phantom of imaginative allopathic Minds who ENDLESSLY name diseases without being about to cure ANY!

Hopefully, all of that is clear, but I expect the idiots here to ignore this fact and rant about some INSANE allopathic lie or distortion of reality since all of the bozo opponents of homeopathy ALWAYS do that till allopaths finally kill them and rid us of their half-truths and lies for the best good of all concerned.

Those that are UNCOMMON are identified by their NOT being suffered by everyone in some disease-diagnostic category; i.e., they instead are suffered ONLY by a few people needing the same medicine per a REMEDY DIAGNOSIS.

(To diagnose something means to "thoroughly know" it, and it thus requires an adjective, but we are so thoroughly allopathically brainwashed as a worldwide civilization that most people just assume "diagnosis" means a disease diagnosis -- wrongo!)

These UNCOMMON symptoms, which are very few in number in any case, lead to an unambiguous prescription precisely because they are strange, rare and peculiar.

A practical example will thus serve here.

An insulin-dependent diabetic patient has vertigo lying on his back, is not thirsty and LOVES the window open during sleep in the winter in a cold climate.

These three uncommon symptoms each contain a list of medicines that have produced them in the healthy and cured them in the sick.

These lists are found in the repertory (symptom index) to the homeopathic materia medica.

A primary repertory is Kent's (http://homeoint.org/books/kentrep/index.htm).

Cross referencing these symptoms will lead to a very small list of medicines with all three uncommon symptoms, often being between 1-3 medicines in well-taken cases.

These few medicines remaining after this cross referencing or repertorization of them are then read in the actual proving reports within the various materia medicas for homeopathicity or the closest symptom match.

This matching necessarily includes the rest of the symptoms, the COMMON ones, and thus the homeopathically famous totality of symptoms.

One of them will be closest and will thus cure.

----------

People only superficially understanding this process ask stupid questions in attempt to sustain their INSANE arguments against homeopathy and for allopathic medicine.

One they thus come up with here goes something like this: what if that medicine closest in symptology hasn't been discovered yet?

One medicine will be closest.

It will necessarily be the simillimum or "thing most similar."

A few others will be close but not as close.

They are classified as the simile (both a singular and plural word).

The vast majority of other drugs (2500+) will be completely dissimilar and thus will do nothing.

Before we found drugs with the greatest similarity for particular patients, we did our best with several drugs over a much longer period of time.

A famous question in homeopathic history addresses this dilemma very succinctly and goes like this.

Shortly after Constantine Hering introduced Apis into our materia medica, he and Adolf Lippe (both hyper-expert Hahnemannians) were talking about it with Calvin Kneer listening.

At a lull in their discussion, Kneer asked them: "What did we do before Apis?"

A bit of silence, and then Lippe said: "We zig zagged cases," meaning that we used several drugs over a longer period of time.

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Since this has happened repeatedly, now watch the fools here who're opposed to homeopathy open their very big mouths and prove themselves TOTALLY ignorant of homeopathy and adherent to the absolute quackery of allopathy.

You guys are pitiful and pathetic!

 

Hans,

Wouldn't trust me. Why?
In the second sentence I say buy it yourself from the pharmacy. It's the manufacturer's product. A formal test will analyse the product.

You are not doing the test? YES.
I will send you the medicine, or you will get it from your nearest pharmacy?

I don't know how long a year is in Denmark, but in Britain it is 12 months. I accessed JREF forum for the first time on 27th November of last year, and left that Forum, for ever, 12 days later, on 9th December. "Exactly the same discussion" is nonsense as well.

As for STALLING. Who is stalling? I am ready to go with the Bryonia, are you??? I can now understand Hahnemannian's frustrations with you.

WTF is your address? 10 people in Britain or Europe, e-mail me so I can send sealed packs for a pilot run. My email address is in homeopathyhome dot com, profile of timokay. I will keep your addresses confidential.

Tim

 

Next we find the total quack named BToxic with one of his now ultra-famous remarks we have THOROUGHLY proven are TOTAL LIES:

You're a TOTAL liar!

Nothing about homeopathy that ever comes out of your mouth from that pile of crap you call brains, which is in turn resonant with Hell, is other than a TOTAL lie, you very ignorant and evil man, so you really do need to shut up.

You have NOT read ANYTHING but allopathic homeopathy, and we have now THOROUGHLY proven it, LIAR.

So please shut up, liar.

----------

I noticed that you revealed you're actually part of allopathic ignorance as a biochemist.

How wonderful that you will agree with every step your quack buddies engage in as they murder you good and dead for the best good of all concerned.

I really love that.

You're really so incredibly stupid that you'll actively help the quacks kill you.

Carl Sagan did that, and you have to be at least as ignorant as was he.

Good thing too, for you could not possibly get dead soon enough to benefit humanity.

 

Then the TOTAL jackass and liar BToxic states this TOTAL lie due to him being a TOTAL liar and jackass:

Liar!

There has NEVER been ANY legitimate test of homeopathy proving any such thing, LIAR!

SHUT UP, LIAR!

Again, again, again and again, you are so incredibly STUPID that you cannot tell you are reading tests of allopathic homeopathy, NOT real homeopathy, jackass!

----------

Fact, this TOTAL jackass has NEVER conducted a high-potency self-proving, so his opinions are of the same quality as the pile of shite he calls brains, not to mention that he's a thoroughly proven TOTAL LIAR!

SHUT UP, LIAR!

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Fact, homeopathy cures infants, animals and the unconscious, NONE of which could possibly be subject to the placebo effect.

So BToxic is not only a TOTAL liar, he is also TOTALLY ignorant of the subject against which he opens his very big mouth to let spew his TOTAL ignorance from the pile of shite inside his vile cranium.

SHUT UP, YOU IGNORANT LIAR!

----------

Why aren't you dead yet, you vile piece of shite?

By all means, and preferably by your own hand with gasoline and a match, please get dead, you vile piece of shite!

 

Then the vile piece of crap named BToxic makes this lie:

Liar!

Shut up, liar!

Where you are concerned, you vile piece of shite, we have done NOTHING BUT prove you couldn't identify legitimate homeopathy from the vile piece of shite that causes your tongue to wag inside your big, ignorant mouth.

Shut up, you ignorant liar!

 

Next, the monkey in a clown suit pretending to be a human being says this:

Give us some of the BILLIONS of dollars that pieces of crap like you waste EVERY YEAR on useless research while people DIE by the MILLIONS in allopathy therapies and we'll give you and dumb, lazy pieces of crap like you tons of STABLE AND CUMULATIVE research, you vile piece of shite!

Shut up, liar!