Should we respect all traditional, cultural and religious norms?

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Bells, Sep 12, 2013.

  1. Bells Staff Member

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    There was a disturbing report out of Yemen these last few days, of an 8 year old girl, a child bride, who was married to her 40 year old groom and who died in horrific circumstances on her wedding night.


    An eight-year-old Yemeni girl has died of internal bleeding on her wedding night after marrying a man five times her age, a social activist and two local residents said, in a case that has caused an outcry in the media and revived debate about child brides.

    Arwa Othman, head of Yemen's House of Folklore and a leading rights campaigner, said the girl, identified only as Rawan, was married to a 40-year-old late last week in the town of Meedi in Hajjah province, north-western Yemen.

    "On the wedding night and after intercourse, she suffered from bleeding and uterine rupture which caused her death," Othman said. "They took her to a clinic but the medics couldn't save her life."

    Othman said authorities had not taken any action against the girl's family or her husband.

    A security official in the provincial town of Haradh denied any such incident had taken place. He did not want to be identified because he was not authorised to speak to the press.

    But two Meedi residents contacted by Reuters confirmed the incident and said tribal chiefs had tried to cover up the incident when the news broke, warning a local journalist against covering the story.


    The UN offers some fairly terrifying projections for child brides and child marriages for the future, if the current rate is any indication. With most child marriages happening in Sub-Sahara African countries and in some parts of Asia, the current figures are bad enough. But it shows no signs of lessening:


    More than 140 million girls will become child brides by 2020 if current rates of early marriage continue, according to the UN.

    Of that number of girls aged under 18, 50 million will be younger than 15, says the UN Population Fund, which co-hosted a panel on child marriage at the Commission on the Status of Women (CSW) on Thursday.

    Although rates of child marriage vary between and within countries, most take place in rural sub-Saharan Africa and south Asia.

    In south Asia, nearly half of young women are married by their 18th birthday. In sub-Saharan Africa the figure is more than one-third.

    Nine of the 10 countries with the highest rates of child marriage are in Africa. Niger has the highest rate, at 75%, followed by Chad and Central African Republic at 68%, Guinea at 63%, Mozambique at 56%, Mali with 55%, Burkina Faso and South Sudan with 52%, and Malawi at 50%. The 10th country is Bangladesh, with 66%.


    Along with issues such as female genital mutilation, and some would include male circumcision as well, should such religious and cultural norms be respected?

    With child marriage and with child circumcision, the response from defenders of such practices is that it is a part of their tradition, religious and cultural history and the practice continues today because this is how it is done. That we, as the West and outsiders, who campaign to end such practices, are infringing on their rights to practice their cultural and/or religious customs as they are free to practice them. And many rebuke the West or outsiders of trying to force change, and when one considers the actions of the West in these countries in the past, any demands or outside pressure will be viewed with derision and disgust, but should we remain silent and not try to force change for all traditions? Even in cases of child marriage and child genital mutilation, for example?

    Lubabatu Ammani, a statistics director from Zamfara state, north-west Nigeria, said: "The fact is, a lot of people [here], when they hear the campaigning is by people from a different tradition or religion, they won't agree with it."

    Is it right to disagree because those demanding change are outsiders?

    In Nigeria, for example, child marriage is illegal. However many bypass the law which protects the rights of the child, and continue to practice child marriage.

    With child marriage, many cite poverty as a reason. Girls from very poor family can yield their parents much needed funds if she is married off to someone wealthy, who then pays the family for their daughter's hand in marriage. It is a form of child selling, where young girls are deemed to be a source of income for the poverty stricken family. However there are other reasons, such as customs and social norms of the region, and even social pressures:

    A sense of social insecurity has been a cause of child marriages across the world. For example, in Nepal, parents fear likely social stigma if grown-up adult girls (past 18 years) stay at home. Other fear of crime such as rape, which not only would be traumatic but may lead to less acceptance of the girl if she becomes victim of a crime.[20] In other cultures, the fear is that an unmarried girl may engage in illicit relationships,[21] or elope causing a permanent social blemish to her siblings, or that the impoverished family may be unable to find bachelors for grown up girls in their economic social group. Such fears and social pressures have been proposed as causes that lead to child marriages. Extreme poverty, in many cases, makes teenage girls feel like an economic burden to a poor family; early marriage is a way to reduce that economic burden. In many parts of Africa, marrying girls early brings income through brideprice - a payment that the groom makes to the bride's family to gain the right to marry and consummate the marriage. Child marriages of girls in exchange for payment becomes an incentive, a way out of desperate economic conditions, or simply a source of income to the parents.

    If we are to look at religious laws and secular laws, it is not just the one. If one were to follow Cannon Law, for example, the Vatican sets the age for girls at 14 years of age. As the wiki link states above, Spain's legal age for marriage is 14 years of age, with parental consent, and in some parts of America, girls under 16 can still marry with court and parental consent. So is the West in any position to dictate or lecture other countries about child marriage?

    Should we, as a global society, be too afraid to tiptoe around such issues, because to protest or demand change is to insult people's cultural, traditional and religious beliefs?

    To put it into some perspective, of just how dangerous child marriages can be for young girls, if the latest case in Yemen was not bad enough:


    The issue is viewed as a major health challenge and is a key part of the country's wider efforts to cut maternal mortality rates. Malawi's maternal mortality rate is 675 for every 100,000 live births a year. The Malawi health minister, Catherine Gotani Hara, said a recent national health survey revealed that most of those women who died were between the ages of 15 and 19.

    "Our biggest worry is that where women are getting married early, it is causing a lot of maternal deaths," she told the Guardian. "We have one of the highest rates in the world. President [Joyce] Banda says this is something we don't want to see. Birth should not be a death sentence to women … we need to end early marriage. It has a serious effect on social and health aspects."

    According to the UN, complications from pregnancy and childbirth are the leading causes of death for girls between the ages of 15 and 19 in poorer countries. Stillbirths and deaths of newborn babies are 50% higher among mothers under the age of 20 than among women who get pregnant in their 20s.


    Those who do not die can go on to have severe issues with their reproductive organs and also their bodies as well:

    Not surprisingly, early marriage often leads to early childbirth, and the health consequences for mother and baby can be devastating, says Saifuddin Ahmed, PhD '96, an assistant professor in Population, Family and Reproductive Health (PFRH), who has worked extensively in Bangladesh. Many girls, their young hips still narrow, labor for days without medical assistance. If the baby's head presses against the walls of the birth canal for too long, it cuts off the blood supply and causes the mother's tissue to die, creating a hole called a fistula. Most obstetrical fistulas form between the vagina and the bladder/urethra, causing a woman to become incontinent and constantly leak urine.

    Many people who live in areas where fistulas are a problem—such as the "Fistula Belt," just south of the Sahara, including Niger, Nigeria and Ethiopia—are not only poor, but often must travel for days to reach a hospital. Almost 90 percent of the children delivered during these prolonged labors are stillborn, says Ahmed. And without a child, the bond between husband and wife frequently dissolves.

    While fistulas can usually be repaired through surgery, the relatively high cost ($300 per repair) puts the procedure out of reach of many impoverished women in these regions, Ahmed notes. Concerned that most research to date has focused on fistula repair, rather than prevention, he undertook one of the first studies to identify the risk factors for fistula. (Collaborators on the study included doctoral candidate Andreea Creanga, and Amy Tsui, PhD, a PFRH professor and director of the Bill and Melinda Gates Institute for Population and Reproductive Health.)

    The Bloomberg School researchers found that the greatest risk was for girls whose first pregnancy was before age 18, increasing again for girls who gave birth before 15. Because most of these deliveries take place without skilled medical care, it is difficult to know exactly how many girls develop a fistula during labor and delivery, says Ahmed.


    So the question remains, should we continue to respect cultural, traditional and religious norms when the results can be death, mutilation and pain and fear for the victims of these traditions?

    While many, myself included, promote education to help combat this, is it enough? Or is it a matter of too little too late and we are too busy to not try to insult people's religion, traditions and cultures, that we are simply hoping they will one day come around?
     
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  3. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    This isn't about religion. It's about sick, perverse men who under the guise of religion, get to hurt children.
    This story is so sick, I have no words.

    I read a book called Escape last year; it is about a woman who 'escaped' a FLDS community, and the horrific conditions she and her 'sister wives' had to live under. It discussed how young the girls typically are, as young as 12, getting married to men who are 50 yrs old and up. No, that has nothing to do with God, or with a 'religion.' It is about exploiting and abusing children and women, under the guise of religion.
     
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  5. arauca Banned Banned

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    It is a sick custom or habits of some men to pry on young kids . We don't have to go to Africa it happen In this society by pedophile or child pornography
     
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  7. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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    Empowering women through education(secondary) and employment so they can be seen as an asset to their impoverished families will most likely help the numbers drop for the 14-18 year old age child-bride group.

    Before I comment on your question regarding respect of those religious, cultural and traditional norms, what exactly do you mean by respect? Do you mean accept? How do we accept or respect cultural pedophilia whether it is this 8 year old little girl or the "dancing boys" in Afghanistan?
     
  8. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    I know, it is horrifying what some people will do to other human beings.

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    Exactly. How far do we take "tolerance?"

    In the book I mention above, unfortunately so many are born into a "religion" that teaches that women are men's property, and many of the communities mentioned in the book lived secluded lives, women not permitted to watch tv or read the newspaper. So, education can't even reach these women and children, in many cases.

    From a legal standpoint, no one should be allowed to harm another person, under the pretense of religion.
     
  9. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    "Continue" is the wrong word: We do not, nor should we respect moralities that appear far below our own. That's why we have documents such as the Bill of Rights and Declaration of Human Rights.
     
  10. Mazulu Banned Banned

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    What about all the religions that preach peace, and encourage people and ease suffering of others? I suspect that not religions are evil, that not all churches are bad.
     
  11. Bells Staff Member

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    I suppose I should have put tolerate and respect.

    But we have pussy footed around such issues, and I don't just mean child brides, female genital mutilation or as you correctly identified as well, dancing boys in Afghanistan, but extend to child soldiers, child labour, selling children to pay off debt so the child goes into slavery.

    These are all identified as being cultural and traditional. Along the lines of 'this is how it has always been' and as soon as we hear the words cultural or traditional or even religious, we tend to back off pushing other countries from curtailing such practices.

    Sure, we will talk about it from the comforts of our own homes and decry the practices as barbaric and we hope that empowering girls, boys, women and men to force change, we have not exactly been successful.

    Russ pointed out the protection of women and girls and boys and men in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (and the Bill of Rights - which only applies in the US). However Article 18 provides:

    Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.


    While the whole notion of child brides contradicts Article 16, which states that men and women of full age when it comes to marriage, what about in countries or communities where one's religion or cultural tradition dictates when a girl or boy is ready for marriage by their maturity when they begin to menstruate, for example?

    In the news today, a father in Yemen has joined the charge to end child marriage in Yemen, after he described how he had sold his 12 year old girl and his younger daughter to their respective husbands to pay off his debts. He describes how he threatened to kill his 12 year old daughter if she did not marry as he had ordered her two, when she refused. While the very notion of selling one's child off to marry for money is abhorrent to the majority, how is this cultural tradition allowed to continue? And should it?

    Women as commodities is not an uncommon thing. However, the issues of child brides and female genital mutilation and dancing boys in Afghanistan, for example, are deemed cultural and traditional aspects of life in their respective communities and any push from the West and even from within the respective countries is met with resistance, because this is how it has always been done.

    In some parts of Pakistan, for example, girls are sold to marriage at a very young age, usually to settle feuds (this also happens in other parts of the world as well). This is deemed a tribal tradition. Many who do follow such traditions explain that their religious text allows it if the girl shows maturity and is physically fit (and usually when she has started to menstruate).

    And child brides also happens in countries like Mexico, where girls who are pregnant or their parents discover they are having sex are being forced into marriage by the time they are 14 years of age.

    Certainly, education is key, but what happens in the meantime? The effects of education will only affect some, and not all. And it can take generations for change to filter through.

    But at the core of this issue is the fact that we tend to run the other way when we hear words like religious tradition and cultural tradition or norm. Why do we simply accept it on those grounds while desperately hoping they will come to change?
     
  12. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    Well, why do you "run the other way when we hear words like religious tradition and cultural tradition or norm", "why do you simply accept it on those grounds while desperately hoping they will come to change" ?
     
  13. TheApostleMike Registered Member

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    No we should not respect nor enable others that step on others rights such as a child. My question would be how can any parent give an 8 year old to someone to marry ? Cultural or not we are all born with the knowledge of right or wrong.
     
  14. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

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    http://www.urbandictionary.com/
    1. Money Talks, Bullshit Walks

    Means that cheap talk will get you nowhere, while money will
    persuade people to do as you like.

    Money talks, bullshit walks, that is how life goes.

    These brides are sold by their parents. Poverty produces desperate solutions. That's part of it but then comes the rape. What drives that?
     
  15. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

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    I don't run. I stand and fight. If it is wrong I'll step them all out.
     
  16. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    No, we should NOT "respect all traditional, cultural and religious norms".

    I think the fad for multiculturalism is bred by fear of being accused of racial discrimination, whereas we can and must insist on a distinction between respecting someone's race and respecting their culture. There are some cultures (I include religious beliefs as a part of culture) which are manifestly inferior to those of the civilised "western"(i.e. Judeochristian or post-Judaeochristian culture) world. Some of these verge on the barbarous. We should have the balls to say so. It is not racist to do that and we should be proud of the achievements of Western civilisation relative to these.

    Equally, we should be careful to distinguish inferior or barbaric cultural practices from the religion of the people practising them, unless the religion is the direct source of the practice. Islam is a case in point: for example most of objectionable cultural practices found in the Arabian peninsula are not intrinsic to Islam - as one can easily see when visiting Turkey for example.
     
  17. andy1033 Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

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    I think there should be broad rules, but if a person wants to practise some religion or belief let them, as long as they are not harming anyone. Plus that those whom decide to take part in it are adults.

    People taking advantage of young kids should not be allowed, as those kids do not have the understanding to decide.

    So i think some things should not be allowed, but as long as people are not harming others, they can practise what they want.
     
  18. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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    I was glad to read that the father in Yemeni has joined the charge to end child marriage, because in reality it will take the men to lead and organize for change, at least initially. What changed this man's mind? Can he and others of like mind in Yemeni change thousands of years of tradition that is so ingrained and accepted in many of the homes as a fait accompli? We know the answer is yes, because it has happened elsewhere. No doubt that the circumstances i.e., religion, tradition and culture were different but the methodology in bringing about the necessary changes will be the same. What can we do from America, Australia and other countries to encourage and enable those willing to fight for change? We have the internet and many of us have the economic means to funnel into an organization willing to fight for that change.

    I know that global women's rights is very near and dear to Hillary Clinton and if she becomes our next POTUS we could see her addressing this issue through a foreign policy approach.


    I remember reading Alice Walker's, Possessing the Secret of Joy, years ago about a woman who had been circumcised(mutilated), the psychological pain as well as the physical pain of sex wreaked havoc on her. Imagine never being able to enjoy the pleasure of sex with someone you love and the sadness for the man that loves you back in knowing this.
     
  19. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    Imagine ugly people protesting because nobody loves them!
     
  20. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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    Is that what you got from what I wrote? Really?
     
  21. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    You're building your case on the grounds from some idealistic scenario which is bound to rile people up emotionally and rouse moral outrage over injustice, so that they are likely to side with you.

    But the simple fact of the matter is that sex just isn't as rosy as you imply it to be, much less are loving relationships a given that everyone has or can easily attain, even for perfectly healthy, wealthy, unoppressed people.


    And most people have that experience anyway at some point, not just the mutilated.

    It's why the sex industry and the self-help industry thrive.
     
  22. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Depends on your attitude about national sovereignty, doesn't it? Do we have the right to dictate how people in other countries live? Even if a majority of the residents disagree with the laws or traditions, what can we actually do to change them?

    The USA has spent the last half-century bullying our way into other nations and attempting to change the way their people live. Can anyone name just one of these countries where the outcome was worth the bloodshed, economic hardship, political destabilization, and/or anti-American hatred it created? We now live in a quasi-police state, in which the government spies on our phone calls and airport guards have become the Gestapo, specifically because we've pissed off so many people in our attempts to improve the lives of other people (or even themselves), to the extent that several of them blew up our largest building and killed 3,000 of us.

    Maybe we just have to be patient and wait for electronic technology to enlighten people, facilitate their organization, and empower them to change their own lives. Including the time-honored tactic of simply emigrating to a country with a more humane culture.
     
  23. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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    What in the hell is so unrealistic or idealistic about not circumcising young women. Let's see because they may not be happy with sex or find love anyway. Really, that is your argument! I can see you now handing out "scalpels for clits" because you know there is no certainty that your going to be happy with sex or love anyway! There is no emoticon available to express my disgust for your argument!


    Hmmm, that's it lets get rid of our clits and the sex industry will disappear!
     

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