Should religion influence government?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by ElectricFetus, Nov 3, 2004.

  1. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    I'm not in favor of theocracy, but I also don't view religion as a taint, every hint of which must be removed from public life. I believe we should not have an official church of America, but am not bothered in the least by faith based initiatives or even prayer in schools. The broad definition of establishment to include any mention of the word God has reached the point where a school has now banned reading the Declaration of Independence since it invokes rights given to man by his creator. Take this "logic" to it's end, and the constitution itself will be ruled unconstitutional. Religion is an important part of many peoples lives and informs many of their choices, political or otherwise. To exclude religion from public life and politics is just as tyranical as forcibly imposing your religion upon others (i.e. sharia).
     
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  3. Muhlenberg Registered Senior Member

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    Odd question. America is a country today because religion influenced government.

    Jonathan Mayhew's sermon, often called the morning gun of the American Revolution, A Discourse Concerning Unlimited Submission and Non-Resistance to the Higher Powers provided colonists with the moral justification for Rebellion. Lord Hugh Percy, commander of British troops in Boston, in 1773 lamented, "I am sorry to say that no body of men are so extremely injurious to peace and tranquility as the clergy. They preach sedition openly from their pulpits."

    The first Speaker of the House of Representatives was a minister. His brother, also a minister, is famous for concluding a sermon by tearing off his clerical garb to expose the uniform of an officer in the Virginia militia.

    Christian ministers and their congregations ended both slavery and Jim Crow . Churches played a large role in the downfall of the Soviet Union. They are giving the rulers of China fits right now. Of course religion has a role to play in politics.
     
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  5. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Should religion influence government?
    No.
     
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  7. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    Muhlenberg:

    Well said.
     
  8. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, I encourage all Islamic people to do their best to enforce Taliban like rules here in the U.S. Let's have some religious influence in our laws.
     
  9. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

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    Should religion influence government?

    It already did.

    There are some states were sodomy is elegal, " I didn't know the government was in "consenting adults bedrooms"

    illicit drug laws, are based on "the body is a temple".
    Prostitution is considered amoral, by who's point of view? other than RELIGION!!

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    Godless.
     
  10. Roman Banned Banned

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    I think the goal of any government should be justice and fairness for as many people as possible. If you've ever read the Old Testament, you'd see that God is not fair. If you ever talk with the religious right, they'd tell you God is no fair.
    It may be alright to run a heavenly kingdom on such tenants, but let God be your judge in the afterlife; me, I'd rather answer to man for my misbehaviour than the Church.
     
  11. android nothing human inside Registered Senior Member

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    Some would say the Christian prohibition on marijuana is insane.

    I refuse to judge Islamic cultures and their laws; it is not my place, and I do not expect all cultures to follow the same rules. To do so would be BORING!

    :m:
     
  12. Muhlenberg Registered Senior Member

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    madanthonywayne...Thanks! Buddhists were slaughtered by communists in the 1920s and 1930s. The faith went underground. When Mongolians threw off the repression, Buddhist monks--complete with singing bowls, dorjees and all the other accoutrements of their faith--emerged from, seemingly, out of nowhere.The 20th century is the history of people of reason (who often turned out to be vicious killers) putting down religion. The secular tyrants always lose in the end. The cost of their defeat, however, has been horrible.

    Those who even suggest faith has no place in government, to give them the benefit of the doubt, are ignorant of what occurs when secularism is allowed to expand unhindered and faith is driven out of the public square.

    As a Clint Eastwood character said, "A man's got to know his limitations." Religion reenforces the fact that man is not omnipotent, that reason, left to itself, leads to inhuman behavior.
     
  13. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    Godless,
    Do you consider yourself an objectivist? Ayn Rand described an objectivist as a radical for capitalism. Would that be an accurate description of your political philosophy? Personally, my political beliefs were strongly affected by the writting of Ayn Rand, and it seems we rarely agree on much. Just wondered.

    Muhlenberg
    It's great to see another conservative here on sciforums. And a Clint Eastwood fan. Welcome.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2004
  14. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

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    I'm not a radical, however I tend to pull towards objectivism. Unfortunately we've never been a capitalist society, we have been a mixed economy though. I grew up with a conservative dad, so I tend to pull a little towards coservatism, however as my dad used to say "I try to pick the less of two evils". Thus neither political ideology of these two parties are in accordance to my political views.

    However I don't believe that I've had enough confrentations on "political views" with ya, to say that we are in disagreement with lots of issues.

    I believe that religion should stay out of the state.
    As well I believe that government should stay out of economics.

    For the same reason that religion has to stay out of the state.

    Godless.
     
  15. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

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    My point, in case you missed it, is that when Christians speak of religion influencing government, they mean their religion. If there were enough Muslims in the U.S. to have a significant influence on our government, and managed to start making laws such as all men must wear beards, and women the Chador, you can bet the Christians wouldn't like that. When they say prayer in the schools, they mean a Christian prayer. Tough shit for the Hindu kids, Islamic kids, agnostic kids, etc.

    So if the idea of a religion you don't believe in influencing government to pass laws to encourage people to behave in the way that religion says they should bothers you; well then, you understand how I feel right now.
     
  16. Muhlenberg Registered Senior Member

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    madanthonywayne...ever read Eric Voegelin on Objectivism?

    He rightly describes it, along with fascism and communism, as a gnostic pseudo-religion.
     
  17. Muhlenberg Registered Senior Member

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    Repro Man...that isn't the case at all. The free exercise of religion is for all. Secularists are the ones who want all other faiths excluded (and, yes, secular humanism is a faith). They are the ones running to Federal courts to shut up Christians. If secularism is allowed to expand unhindered and faith is repressed as is the case in America today, the end is tyranny. One need not be a Christian or believe in any God to see that.
     
  18. BlueMoose Guest

    Should it ? Well, it does. Only if all politicians are atheistic it cant influence. So, beware, make sure your canditate uses only those parts of religion that does make some sense...
     
  19. Collision Registered Senior Member

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    My answer is no, assuming we had a choice. The level of intelligence of people who activily participate and are directly resposible for the governent policies that direct them or by default tolerate what ever government exists or governmental changes occur is what determines the intelligence of the government. I'm a physical Democrat.

    I'm a non-believer, a scientist. So, I won't bs this. Religion has many positive elements. The problem with religious minds is that they know some of the positive elements are superior compared to some contemporary or extreme liberal ideals, but they are mistaken by not putting credit where credit is due. Science is why certain elements of religion make sense, not because they are soley found in texts or beliefs systems of Christianity or Islam.

    A few great religious humans have been scientists. These humans have contributed great progress toward the truth and understanding, science (such as physics and certain moral theories), but on the side have agreed with the most ridiculous parts of religion such as Hell and Damnation, praying and Bush's war.

    Science is all that is necessary for government. Remove Bush and we'll be off to a great start.
     
  20. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

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    1. humanism, secular humanism -- (the doctrine emphasizing a person's capacity for self-realization through reason; rejects religion and the supernatural)
    http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn?stage=1&word=secular humanism

    Yes, that sounds like a faith.
    No one is repressing your faith. But a government that offers equal protection to those who believe in either one god, many gods, or none, has to be neutral about all of this god business. No ten commandments in the courthouse. No prayer in public schools. No creation myths in biology class.
     
  21. Muhlenberg Registered Senior Member

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    Repo Man writes "No ten commandments in the courthouse. No prayer in public schools. No creation myths in biology class."

    Who are you to dictate all this? Climb Mt. Sinai and God tell you what people can and cannot do?

    Hey...and guess what? I have access to a dictionary too! I know how to look up words. Unlike you, I don't patronize others by assuming they are idiots and don't know what "secular humanism" is and need me to copy and paste it for them to read.
     
  22. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    That's pretty much a direct Ayn Rand quote. Although she reversed the positions of religion and ecomonics in her quote.

    No, but I've read enough about her personal life and the various scandals and infighting to see there's an argument to be made. Nevertheless, she makes some excellent points regarding the virtues of capitalism. As with any other philosopher, one must be able to weed out the BS. While a fan of Ayn Rand, I'm also a Christian.
     
  23. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

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    LOL!!OOOOH what a laugh!! Eric was or is an idiot!!.

    Comparing objectivism to fascism, cracks me up!, any fool to come up with shiet like that has oviously never read Ayn's work or has his head stuck up his ass!!.



    The link

    Ayn Rand opposed in all her writing collectivism, and now for some idiot to compare objectivism to fascism or communism is a total fool, and making an ass of himself!.

    Phillip Morris; fascists of today, are the companies that sell themselves, rendering the government profit by force, there's money to be made by extorting rich companies, and those that pay willingly are promoting fascism:
    A good article here written by Edward Cline from Capitalism magazine.

    Godless.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2004

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