# Should religion influence government?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by ElectricFetus, Nov 3, 2004.

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3. ### whitewolfasleep under the juniper bushRegistered Senior Member

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Ammendment to the above: it is ok to kill for the sake of your god

Um, a serious amendment: it is ok to kill in self-defence.
It follows: it is ok to kill to defend your country.
It follows: it is ok to kill to defend the interests of your country.
It follows: it's still ok to kill.

I think that in modern times religion should not play a role at all when it comes to morals and ethics; the human race is mature enough to come up with better reasons.

5. ### ElectricFetusSanity going, going, goneValued Senior Member

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If you want this remerge it better to ask then try to sway then argument back.

7. ### ElectricFetusSanity going, going, goneValued Senior Member

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The right or wrong of homosexuality for example can be determined logically, scientifically, or even philosophically: religion again is not the only bases for moral values.

8. ### James RJust this guy, you know?Staff Member

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We use non-religious ethical principles. For example, consider the issue from a utilitarian viewpoint. What creates the greatest net happiness for the greatest number of people?

In fact, religious morality most likely developed from ideas inherent in human nature. Thus, morality came before religion, not the other way around.

9. ### SpykeRegistered Senior Member

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The US definitely did not start out as a theocracy, and "In God We Trust" didn't appear as a motto until the 1950s.

Maybe in Massachusetts the original colonial charter might have stated as much, but I doubt any of the later state constitutions did. Madison and Jefferson made sure it stayed out of Virginia's constitution.

10. ### James RJust this guy, you know?Staff Member

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David F:

Are the little boys happy? I don't think so. And what of the long term effects?

Here, we have 100 content rednecks + 1 content homosexual versus 100 happy rednecks + 1 extremely unhappy homosexual. How much difference does the bashing make to redneck happiness? Probably not much. How much difference does it make to the homosexual's happiness? A great big difference. Net result - it is undesirable to allow this to occur. Also, it is not just the homosexual's happiness which is in question. We also need to consider the wider interests of society in terms of law and order, tolerance for difference etc.

11. ### guthrieparadox generatorRegistered Senior Member

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Well, here we have an example of why such reports are out of fashion. Its the lumping together of homosexual with such behaviour. I mean conclusions such as
"the male homosexual naturally seeks the company of the male adolescent, or of the young male adult, in preference to that of the fully-grown man"

Are purile, and expressing an opinion based upon minimal evidence. A better and more scientific way of putting it is that a third of child molesters happen to have homosexual attractions, not that homosexuals as a group are a greater risk. How about the claim that these offenders constitute a large part of the "gay" community, when as far as I know such offenders actually prey upon many many youngsters, ie that a few men cause most of the problem.

Besides, when you can safely define a homosexual culture to me, then you can start talking about what is and isnt part of it.​

12. ### DreamwalkerWhateverValued Senior Member

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Execution and war is still murder...

13. ### DreamwalkerWhateverValued Senior Member

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Today I read the newspaper and was reminded that the EU constitution is coming out soon. As some of you might know, God is excluded from this document, and rightfully so. Of course, the catholics are crying about them being discriminated by leaving out god... well, and all those who do not believe in their god is not discriminated? God is obsolete and does not belong in a modern society and hence he should not be included into the constitution of that society.

Aslo, there is Europe, devoid of god, but still, I think that we have moral values, France is one of the most ferocious seperators of religion and state, Germany follows suit. And this has been the way for decades. See this in the light of current events, which countries are more morally integer? The USA or France and Germany? Do not only ask yourself, also ask the world. From our standpoint (I am German), the USA is normally regarded as a morally bankrupt society, nonetheless they call upon god?

Draw your own conclusions, but I think that a seperation of god and state is a good thing, otherwise it will only lead to malcontent, intolerance and fights, physical and phsychological.

I think that this is a good

14. ### DreamwalkerWhateverValued Senior Member

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I know, the bible also condones slavery, I still do not think that those are good moral values, this again would lead me to the conclusion that the morals that are propagated in the bible are inferior or more savage than those my atheistic yet morally attuned mind thinks appropriate.

How can war be justified? Didn't Jesus preach that if someone hits you on the right cheek, you should turn him the left? And then there was something about forgiveness and loving your enemy...

Hhmm, I think some people should not talk about morals.

15. ### DreamwalkerWhateverValued Senior Member

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Well... I did kinda aim at the moral values displayed by the governments of these two godless countries. And comparing the to the moral integrity of the USA, also in light of recent events.

And I do not see the French as money-grubbing parasites, at least not on the scale of the USA. If the French are money grubbing, they would have joined into the Iraq war, just to make a lot of profit in rebuilding it, just as an example.

Furthermore, what is wrong about putting France and Germany together? I like the French, and the relationship between both states is quite good... Granted, there are unsavory people in both countries, but most are all right.
Also, I think the French government is honorable and trustworthy. And I do not think that they will topple the UN...

16. ### DreamwalkerWhateverValued Senior Member

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Every government is bribed, we had a big scandal two or three years ago... and I do not want to kow how much money the USA gets from the Saudis.

Personally, I would rather trust my life to the French than giving my wastebin in the safekeeping of the USA.

But I notice that this is going ectremely off-topic, so I will stop discussion of this theme and leave others the opportunity to express their thoughts on religion and its place in the state.

17. ### DreamwalkerWhateverValued Senior Member

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If I had to weight a bit of bribery against mass murder, I would choose bribery. And I did not say riddled, just because some people accepted unlawful money does not mean that they are bad people.
And if you might have missed it, I implied a certain monetary flow heading into America...

But you also have lenient laws considering money. The German bribery affair was in fact money that politicians did not account for when paying their taxes...
And I am not really familiar with any deep reaching bribery affair involving the French government, rather it concerns French companies.

A religious government is just as corrupt as an atheistic one, but the religious one is still backed up by god. Strange that your god-fearing country is utterly dependend on atheistic, islamic (and various other cinvictions) countries.

And you still have some unjustified wars to account for...

18. ### whitewolfasleep under the juniper bushRegistered Senior Member

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What, you can't bribe a religious government? Bull. You can bribe all humans except those who are morally against bribes, and that moral standard has nothing to do with religion but with integrity, responsibility, and duty.

19. ### guthrieparadox generatorRegistered Senior Member

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So, the next question, if we are to have a theocracy, which religion should it belong to?

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21. ### RomanBannedBanned

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I can't believe any American would honestly think that Religion and American Democracy could ever equal good!

People should be allowed to do whatever they wish; with one stipulation. That stipulation is that doing what one wants must not interfere with another's life, property or liberty, unless both parties agree to it.

David, you say a lot about subjectivity. I think the greatness of America is its allowance of citizens to be as subjective or non-sunjective as they wish. As soon as one puts in an absolute truth government, laws become draconian and unjust. It happens in virtually every theocracy everywhere.

The American government grants you the choice to believe or wish for whatever you want. However, it does not grant you the power to impinge on others who disagree with your meglomania.

Sure, America was founded on 'Judeo-Christian' values. But I doubt that Jefferson or Washington would ever agree to the automobile, if told what a danger it was, just as they would reject homosexuality.
Sure, the automobile grants people freedom, but at a terrible cost. We become dependent on other nations for resources, we pollute our skies, and millions of Americans die in them each year, not to mention 100,000s of crimes are committed in conjucntion with cars.
Now replace car with homosexuality in this statement, and readjust my numbes for the homosexual minority.

However, American law and political system is far closer to Greco-Roman law and politic, than communist Jesus and patriarchal Jews. In light of that, should we instate an emperor and turn the homeless into gladiators?

22. ### ElectricFetusSanity going, going, goneValued Senior Member

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I keep my point that implementing religious laws would be a very VERY bad idea. And even trying to implement just the holy laws you like wouldn’t that be a sin? Aren’t you suppose to follow ALL of gods laws?

23. ### androidnothing human insideRegistered Senior Member

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Religion should be part of politics. But I should have the right to form a breakaway society to keep me away from the @#$@#$#@ Christians and other loonies.