Should Mars be terraformed?

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by draqon, Jul 7, 2008.

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Should Mars be terraformed?

  1. We should not even venture into space...we should stay on Earth

    12.5%
  2. We should venture into space...Mars or not Mars...but later in 100 years or so

    9.4%
  3. We should venture into space in these 100 years but settle on the moon

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. We should venture into space before 2050, and colonize Mars

    9.4%
  5. We should venture into space as fast as we can and colonize Mars

    21.9%
  6. We should venture into space and colonize Mars and terraform it on a side

    6.3%
  7. We should explore space immedeately and terraform Mars right from the star

    6.3%
  8. We should terraform every habitat we visit, as long as it is in our power and as fast we can

    25.0%
  9. whatever NASA and space agencies decide...is were I stand

    3.1%
  10. other/none

    6.3%
  1. theyoung Registered Member

    Messages:
    13
    Stupid

    You all are spinning your wheels if you really think just an atomosphere will take care of cosmic rays. Without the magnetic field, life doesn't exist.
     
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  3. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    I don't care how talking monkeys think.

    Pure BS. Our magnetic field can't even stop high powered cosmic rays, our atmosphere does most of that work.
     
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  5. theyoung Registered Member

    Messages:
    13
    One obviously needs both to survive
     
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  7. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    No, life just needs a shield from most of the radiation, it does not care if that shield is magnetic, magnetic and atmosphere or just atmosphere.
     
  8. Nasor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,221
    That could work for raising the surface temperature a little, but I don't think you could substantially increase the amount of solar energy you collected that way. At least, not on the sort of incredible scale we're talking about.

    It's also worth pointing out that any solar energy you capture and use to generate oxygen gas is solar energy that's no longer going toward warming the planet. If you started converting even 10% of the planet's solar flux into chemical potential energy, it would probably cause the temperature to plummet; it would be equivalent to the planet getting 10% less sunlight.

    I'm not saying it's impossible to do it faster than on the order of thousands of years, I just don't think it's likely with any plausible foreseeable technology. The energy requirements are simply too enormous.
     
  9. Nasor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,221
    Did you ever stop to wonder how life survives at the north and south pole, where the earth's magnetic field provides no protection from cosmic rays???

    Here's a hint: the atmosphere blocks most of the radiation.

    But now we're just repeating stuff that's already been explained several times in this thread. Why don't you read over the thread and if you still have questions.
     
  10. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,202
  11. Pandaemoni Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,631
    And the part where everyone there suffers bone loss due to living in 0.4 g?

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    The reason Mars can't have a thick atmosphere is that the planet is only 11% the mass of the Earth and it has no magnetic field. It is directly bombarded by the solar wind, and that means energetic particles crach into the atmosphere, which causes molecules in the upper atmosphere to routinely drift off into space. Carbon dioxide happens to remain because it's reasonably heavy, as atmospheric molcules go, and so it has a relatively harder time acheiving escape velocity than many other gases.

    The atmosphere on Mars is not just "a little thin," I note. Earth's atmosphere is about 170 times denser than that of Mars on average. Mars's atmosphere is only one-half of one percent (0.5%) the mass of the Earth's atmosphere.

    Dumping gasses into the atmosphere won't make them stay there, even if you could move enough gas to thicken it up. You need to transfer, what? at least 1000 teratons worth of gas to make the Martian atmosphere comparably thick as the Earth's (but without an ozone layer and no magnetic field, so that sucks too--pack your SPF10^12 sunblock!), and then you can't stop Mars from bleeding that into space, because the planet is too light.

    In short, you should not accuse people of being ill informed just because they disagree with you. I have read quite a lot about Mars and I disagree with the people who believe that terraforming is an easy prospect.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2009
  12. Nasor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,221
    Pandaemoni, as has already been explained to you it would take millions of years for the atmosphere to be stripped away by solar wind. On human timescales, it would be permanent.

    Also, most of the gasses used to thicken the atmosphere would come from Mars's own enormous stores of CO2 that are trapped on the surface as dry ice. No one is expecting to "dump" gas onto the planet to thicken the atmosphere; it's just a matter of warming the planet enough to get a substantial amount of the dry ice on the surface to melt and induce a run-away greenhouse effect.
    I think he was accusing you of being ill-informed because you've been repeating arguments that have already been addressed over and over in this thread.
     
  13. Grim_Reaper I Am Death Destroyer of Worlds Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,349
    Oh so you are what exactly a Talking Bird you not from Earth if so where you located I am sure the powers that be will want to have a look at you.
     
  14. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,202
    Todays biometric knowledge does not yet know how human will develop at reduced gravity, we have a understandingly, though limited to adults of the problems zero gravity causes but we know nothing of reduced gravity and we can't make any good assumptions at this point.

    Again studies have shown that the lose rate of atmosphere due to solar wind would be minuscule, if we build up a atmosphere on mars it would take hundred of millions of years for it to all get striped away.

    We can make ozone from oxygen, as well as CFC provide some ozone protection.

    No your ill informed because what you say does not correlate with studies and simulations done by credible researchers, Mars can hold a earth pressure atmosphere for eons.
     
  15. Pandaemoni Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,631
    And the loss due to the Martian low mass problem? You can't hold a thick atmosphere on a low mass world.

    Oh, just like we did on Earth when we confronted the ozone depletion that CFCs caused. Oh wait...we haven't solved that problem here yet. But it will be easy on Mars because we have your plan.

    1. Convert unbelievably huge amounts of free oxygen and (somehow) get it to Mars.
    2. . . .
    3. Enjoy the Martian ozone layer.

    That is a plan worthy of any Underpants Gnome.

    Please you are assuming that the most optimistic assessments are correct and handwaiving away things like low gravity effects on humans. The data we have on low gravity environments suggests its bad for us. But in your mind the lack of controlled long term studies means it must be safe.

    Your faith is amazing, your objectivity not so much. Still I can sit secore in the knowledge that your pipe dream will never be pursued, because no one has the money for it, not this century at least.
     
  16. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,202
    How many times do I need to say this: the lost rate is too fucking slow!

    This is not my plan, its from the links.

    Again read the links, oxygen production would take many centuries but is viable. We would need to produce 2200 TW per year for every millibar of oxygen and would need at least 120 millibars for humans to live, assuming global coverage by some GM plant life after warming and CO2 atmosphere build up they would have a combined oxygen production power of 200 TW and thus alone it would take 1320 years with plant life, added in 100 TW from orbital mirrors and artificial oxygen cracking and it would take 900 years. How much more power could be put into it is completely up to what ever future technologies can provide, I now biochemically that 1% efficiency of terrestrial plants used in Dr. zubrin estimates are very pessimistic: Terrestrial (land) plants aside, some microalgae can achieve 7% efficiency and if that kind of performance could be engineering into some kind of lichen on a warmed mars that would mean 1400 TW, or 188 years to breathable atmosphere with plants alone, including 50 years to warm mars up and that only ~250 years to terraform mars.

    Never suggested it was safe, in fact if you read back, I'm against humans living in space period, merely I was saying that we could make mars habitable, it is technologically possible with existing or near term technology. And if humans can't develop on low gravity worlds all the better as the nearest solution would be genetic engineering.

    Again your lacking of reading skills are outstanding, not only have you not read my links you have not even read my earlier post, fuck you did not even read my vote in the poll! I don't have any dream for terraforming mars! I was merely saying it could be done, and provided citation to back that claim, I was not saying it should be done nor do I even want it to be done!
     
  17. draqon Banned Banned

    Messages:
    35,006
    proof link please
     
  18. Enmos Staff Member

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    43,184
    Anyway, we need to get our act together here on Earth first before even thinking about colonizing other worlds.
    And if we are going to colonize other planets before that we should displace virtually the entire human race and they should then leave Earth the fuck alone.
    I'll opt to stay here..

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  19. draqon Banned Banned

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    35,006
    you stay here, Enmos.

    Just like those who stayed behind in Africa, Ethiopea...the original birthplace of all humans. Those who stayed behind, living in poverty and hunger. Stay behind.

    Meanwhile we, the conquerors, the true conquerers of all worlds, will venture far beyond this planet, far beyond this solar system, far beyond the galaxies.

    We, humans.
     
  20. Enmos Staff Member

    Messages:
    43,184
    Goodbye, and don't come back!
     
  21. draqon Banned Banned

    Messages:
    35,006
    Oh who says there will be Earth to come back to? The planet is detiorating, floods, violence, tornadoes, earthquakes...its a miracle it survived so long. Long after the planet is gone, our civilization will live on.
     
  22. Enmos Staff Member

    Messages:
    43,184
    Goodbye then.. :wave:
     
  23. draqon Banned Banned

    Messages:
    35,006
    either way, whether you like it or not. We will transform Mars to Earth-2. Terraforming everything that is by right, ours. And everything is ours, by right. We welcome you to a bright new world, technology going in parallel with human-kind, symphony of minds in creations of engineering, sciences, art, medicine.

    Mars, home.
     

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