Should it be illegal to have sex with a woman under the influence of alcohol

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Theoryofrelativity, Nov 4, 2006.

  1. baumgarten fuck the man Registered Senior Member

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    No. One can logically want to protect one's self from uncontrollable men and yet do nothing. Desire itself does not imply action.
     
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  3. Oniw17 ascetic, sage, diogenes, bum? Valued Senior Member

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    What kind of question is that?
     
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  5. imaplanck. Banned Banned

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    How much did yours cost?
     
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  7. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    No, but your previous statements imply that women should take no measures to avoid obvious danger because men should be able to control themselves.
     
  8. Bells Staff Member

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    Ah but men are also raped, as are children. In that case, men, women and children should be wearing them. Now I don't know about you, but the thought of wearing chain mail underwear is not appealing at all. Think of the comfort factor for one. Would you like your precious marbles to be encased in chain mail or possibly plate armour? I don't imagine it'd be too comfortable.. what do you think? Plus it'd make going to the bathroom a bit of an ordeal, especially if the key was misplaced.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  9. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    At least I'm not into goats:

    Why, Max, would anyone want to take lessons from a person like you? I mean, so what if I'm compatible with both genders? At least I'm not left to the goats.

    Oh, tell me, do the goats consent? How, exactly, is that consent given? Or ... are you a goat-raper?

    Please tell me you don't have to get 'em drunk first.
     
  10. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Do what you gotta do?

    In order to make a more useful contribution to the topic, the following is taken from a recent edition of The Stranger, a local weekly newspaper:

    In other things, elsewhere: Lance Bass reported that he has received serious threats over the contents of his hot boyfriend's new book that claims he was basically man-raped by "straight" military men after he came out—and pardon me, I have to masturbate now. (The Stranger, Nov. 2-8, 2006)

    So ... did Lance Bass's hot boyfriend fail to protect himself against sexual molestation by not making enough of an effort to not be hot?

    Seriously, do tight jeans and a dirty wifebeater shirt mean a guy's trying to be so sexy he's contributing to his own rape? How about a well-tailored suit? Running tights? Speedo bikini swimsuit?

    A chick wearing a thong that shows above her jeans? How about a gangsta wanna-be showing eight inches of Joe Boxer?

    (Can't get enough of Lance Bass's hot boyfriend? Check out the Nov. 9-15, 2006 edition of The Stranger for an update.)
     
  11. dhomaila Registered Member

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    2
    Here is a novel idea. Why don't we require "combination panty locks" for women. This way if she is sober enough to remember her combination; she is sober enough to have sex. If her panties are violently damaged then the rape is no longer a matter of opinion.
     
  12. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Isn't that insulting a fine, upstanding member of sciforums? You threatened me with banning because you claimed that I insulted someone in a post, do the same rules apply to you?

    And please don't use the excuse that my posts "prove" what you say ...because I could be perfectly innocent of racism, yet make a post about it for the sake of the discussion. My post might be racist, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm racist!

    Baron Max
     
  13. Destroyer Banned Banned

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    That would be playing Devils' advocate, 'cept your posts show you are in fact just playing the Devil.
     
  14. Roman Banned Banned

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    Have you been raped?
    Because according to your definition of rape, I have. But according to the state of virginia's definition of rape, and presumably most of the other state's definition of rape, I wasn't.
     
  15. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

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    You know back to this issue of clothing which is STILL doing the rounds. I am astounded it is even an issue. ALL parents I know and have ever known have discouraged and been displeased about their daughters desire to wear skimpy clothing. Both because of the 'stereotype' that women in certain clothing atttract and also because of the 'attention' that women in certain clothing attract.

    Until we live in a world where men respect women and don't assume they are sexually available, easy prey or not worth respect for wearing certain clothing it wise to be careful depending on your situation.

    I get more male attention when blonde that when brunette or red head.
    I get more male attention when wearing a skirt than when wearing trousers
    I get more attention when wearing a tight top than a baggy one.
    I get more attention when wearing a smile than a frown
    I gewt more attention when wearing heels than flats.

    THIS IS FROM BOTH SEXES

    Women can be bitchy (note Bells comments re my avatar) and agrressive towards women dressed in a way they find competative or threatening and men are more aroused and more interested and make their intentions known. If you can handle the attention, don't mind the attention that certain clothing generates FROM BOTH SEXES, go ahead wear what you like.

    BUT be aware the attention is there. That is a fact. *usual disclaimer- attention there also regardless blah blah blah*)

    I had a girls night out recently and had a really hot outfit that made me look fantastic. BUT I changed out of it. Without my bf with me I did not want the type of attention the outfit would have generated from men or the attention it would have generated from women. AND I deffinately would not have been happy walking down the road at night in that outfit.

    It's not rocket science

    This is not a perfect world

    Back to the topic.

    Roman has stated that by the 'defenition of rape' as defined in this thread re possible new UK laws, he has been raped many times. BUT he did not know he was raped. Hence no police reports etc

    NOTE

    IT is not trauma or understanding of rape law that determines whether a 'rape' incident took place, but the action of 'rape' itself as defined BY that law.

    We are talking here of a law which is about to redefine what rape is. In that women who consent but are under the influence of alcohol may not be capable of informed consent thus the consent is invalid and the sex becomes rape.

    This brings me back to the point of my first post which gave an example re a pal of mine who had sex while drunk, may have regreted her actions after BUT never cried rape and never considered it rape. I then stated with the new UK law, and redefining of what constitutes rape, she may well redefine how she feels about the sex the morning after the night before, when she was too drunk to make a more selective choice.

    Roman,
    If you found out that one of those girls used you deliberately to create a baby (this happens when women want babies but don't want them to have a father- they just seek men to have sex with in the hope they become impreganated by them) how would this make you feel, would you feel more compelled to report her actions as 'rape' or take responsibility for your own?
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2006
  16. imaplanck. Banned Banned

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    2,237
    I was looking to see what Bells said about ToR and I saw that G-strings for 6 year olds, are you serious??? The only reason I can think for that would be to arouse child molesters. I cant believe that.
     
  17. Bells Staff Member

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    24,062
    I have never been raped, but I was sexually assaulted by someone who'd been a close and trusted friend for many years. He ended up with my car keys jammed in his crotch leaving him passed out and bleeding from between his legs while I ran back to the restaurant we'd been having dinner with other friends, to call the police. As to the laws in the state that you live in, then go by that. In Australia, you would have every right to report it to the police as a rape and an investigation would have been launched into your claim. As to charges being laid, I've said before that rape convictions and charges in general are hard to prove, even more so where alcohol is involved. If you wish to change the rape laws and definition of rape in your State, then by all means start campaigning to do so. Not every country or state has the same laws. Hence why many feel that uniform laws dealing with rape, sexual assault, marriage, etc, should be applied. But that's a topic for another discussion.

    As to my understanding and knowledge of rape laws, as I've pointed out before, I worked as a prosecutor in Australia for some time and sadly a lot of my case load had been rape and sexual assault cases against men, women and children. I've said before it is a confusing issue for many people. The laws proposed by ToR would never be able to come to fruition as they would be impossible to police and prosecute. Rape is concerned with consent and whether there was or wasn't consent prior to the event. If a person is drugged or so drunk as to not be able to be in any position to give willing and knowing consent, then consent is seen to have not been given and by law it is a rape. But as I've said before the majority don't report it and those who do find it virtually impossible to prosecute. Only a bare minimum of rape charges result in a conviction.

    ToR asks a very good question at the end of her post to you...

    "If you found out that one of those girls used you deliberately to create a baby (this happens when women want babies but don't want them to have a father- they just seek men to have sex with in the hope they become impreganated by them) how would this make you feel, would you feel more compelled to report her actions as 'rape' or take responsibility for your own?"

    One of the cases I'd had to deal with was a man who came forward to report a rape, of which he'd been a victim of. While on holidays at some friends house, he'd taken quite ill and had retired to bed early one night. He woke at some point during the night to find a woman (she lived in the house he was staying in) raping him. He tried to push her off as she manipulated his penis (she'd shown an interest in him before and he was not inclined to accept her invitation), but because he was so sick he was quite weak and she fought him back and he was afraid that if he hurt her, he would get into trouble if she went to the police. She in effect raped him. He ejaculated and she then jumped off and went to her room. He feared STD's and worse still AIDS and returned home to get tested. 2 months later she called him to tell him she was pregnant and that it was his. He then came forward to report the rape and through the investigation, it came to light that she'd wanted a child and he was available and she thought willing since he got an erection. She miscarried the child soon after, but had she given birth and the child had been proven to be his, he would have had to face her taking him to court to pay child support. By law, she did rape him as she admitted herself that he was saying no and trying to push her off, but she thought that since he was erect, he must have been willing. I'm scared to think how many men have been 'caught' out this way and have not come forward to report it as a rape and instead have had to face the fact that the child that resulted from their rape was theirs and they've had to pay for the child's upbringing. I know of other similar rape cases and it's a horrible reality for those victims.

    Sadly yes I was serious. They were hipster g-sting's so that the knicker line didn't show under their clothing. Scary thought that there's even a market out there for such products for children so young.

    Oh get over yourself already. Honestly your need to be liked is so transparent that I can't even be bothered to make fun of it anymore. My point about your avatar was that you were hardly in a position to lecture about women not dressing provocatively to protect themselves from attracting the wrong attention when you post that avatar of yourself.

    Again, I point will try and get you to understand. I'm not competiting against you or anyone else in here or elsewhere. If you think that because I comment about something you say and point out how your actions are totally different, that I am competing or feeling threatened, then you are sadly mistaken. If you feel this is a competition then you're the only one competing. I don't care if people don't like me or find me bitchy nor do I have the need to be liked. If you want to attract men on here or make them aroused or interested then knock yourself out and good luck with it all. I'm a grown woman who left the high school 'need to be popular or prom queen' crap back in high school and I never bothered with it then either. But if you're going to claim that women should dress more conservatively, etc etc, you shouldn't do so with an avatar that seems to show you dressed differently to what you're proposing how women should dress because people will see the hypocrisy and the irony in your statements.
     
  18. Roman Banned Banned

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    11,560
    ToR,
    This shouldn't be surprising, should it? Of course you get more male attention when you dress up like you're looking for sex (ie, cleavage, leg exposed, make up, etc.). How are men supposed to know whether to approach you or now? Humans don't have very good senses of smell. It's not like we can tell if you're in heat or not. Or if you smell of another man. Though I doubt you'd let your man mark his scent all over you. Seems a bit degrading, yeah?

    And yes, I am aware that women like to dress up nice, even if they aren't looking for sex. But it's different between dressing up for the office, and going to a bar with lots of cleavage. Which would be the better assumption for the man at the bar, who is there to pick up a partner (typical bar behavior): "This woman is dressing like she wants it, but she's just a silly woman, clueless of how she's dressing," or "this adult is dressed like she knows what she wants."

    This of course is all quite different when it comes to rape. "She was dressed pretty" is hardly an excuse for rape.

    But when alcohol enters the equation, messages can get mixed.

    I don't even consider it rape. Some policy makers in the UK and Bells considers it rape. I consider it bad decision making, on my part.

    Precisely!

    Yes, exactly. Exactly. I don't think a woman who regrets her actions the night before should be allowed to ruin a man's life.

    If I had sex with a partner who was drunk, and later decided she hadn't given consent, she could press rape charges under this law. If convicted that I did indeed have sex with her, and since she was drunk and unable to give consent, I would go on a sex offender registry. Anytime I moved into a neighborhood, all the moms could go online and look me up. There I am. Online for rape. Then they'd run me out of time.

    That's a nightmare right there.

    But it depends. If it was sloppy sex while we were both drunk, then I'd have to take responsibility. Simply because I've been drinking doesn't mean I'm no longer responsible for my behavior. It's a risk I take.

    And yes, a woman could get me drunk to concieve a child by me. But I'd rather have that risk than have all the troubles caused by the government mandating what BAC is acceptable for sex.

    Bells,

    It's appalling, the number of women who have been sexually assaulted. Pretty much every woman I've ever talked to has, at one point, been the victim of sexual assault. I'm glad you stabbed that douchebag.

    But whether or not the law calls it 'rape' doesn't make it rape. I would in no way compare my experiences with those of an actual rape victim. I wasn't forced. I maintain that I am responsible for the choices I make, whether I decide to drink or not, and the company I keep when I drink. Sometimes I wake up in shame and disgust. It's as much my fault as it was hers.


    I think there's a huge difference, however, between getting someone pass-out drunk and raping them to just getting drunk and sleeping with someone you wouldn't have when you're sober.

    In the first case, the victim is a victim. I think it's pretty fair to say that anyone who does anything to an unconscious person is in the wrong.

    In the second, though.... If someone got drunk and decided to go for a drive and got in a smash up, who's at fault? The drunk driver or the sober driver? If both drivers were drunk?

    I guess, what I'm trying to say is, how drunk is drunk. And how much responsibility is on the man (or whoever isn't the one crying rape) to the mental state of their partner.

    If a very depressive woman goes out and has sex with a man because of her mental state (chemically very unbalanced), then gets on Zoloft and becomes a 'normal' person, sober person (in the sense that she's no longer trying to committ suicide or randomly hooking up), can she charge the man with rape?

    See my response to ToR.

    That's fucked up.
     
  19. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    5,502
    It should be illegal for a woman to have sex with a man who is under the influence of alcohol, definitely. That is taking advantage of a person who is mentally compromised by a drug that lowers inhibitions.
     
  20. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    36,505
    Regarding the alcohol issue, here is one example of a relevant law. In the Crimes Act of my home state, section 53 reads:

    53. A person must not -

    (a) administer a drug, matter or thing to a person; or
    (b) cause a drug, matter or thing to be taken by a person -

    with the intention of rendering that person incapable of resistance and thereby enabling himself or herself or another person to take part in an act of sexual penetration with that person.

    Penalty - Imprisonment for 10 years.

    ---

    Note that "drug, matter or thing" includes alcohol. Also, notice that this creates a crime which is quite separate from rape. If a person plies somebody with alcohol in order to get them drunk, then has sex with them without their consent, they can be convicted of rape AND the above offence, thus potentially doubling their jail time.
     
  21. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    23,053
    Intention is one of the most difficult, if not impossible, issues for a prosecutor to prove in a court of law. Thus it most often comes back to "He said, She said", which is damned difficult for a jury to decide.

    I'm tellin' y'all, it's simply best to get the girl to sign a document in front of a legal notary, then videotape the entire sexual encounter in order to protect yourselves from the charge of rape. If you don't do that, ye're just asking for trouble ....she can fuck your brains out that night, then the very next morning she can swear out a complaint of rape ......and ye're dragged through a long, expensive legal battle ...that you just might not win.

    If y'all want my advice, stay the hell away from women other than known whores and prostitutes. Women ain't nothin' but trouble for men (and vice versa, too!).

    Baron Max
     
  22. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    My sexual impotence is voluntary and this is why.
     
  23. Huwy Secular Humanist Registered Senior Member

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    This happened in sydney, an 18 year old girl got drinking and AGREED to have sex with three males aged 21-22.
    Afterwards she decided that she told them to stop and they didn't - and accused them of raping her.
    The three men were acquitted.
     

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