Should high cholesterol be actually the culprit for heart disease ?

Discussion in 'Chemistry' started by river, Mar 30, 2013.

  1. river Valued Senior Member

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    To continue

    It isn't the invader that sets off the continued work of the macrophages

    It is the chemical changes of the LDL , from sugar , starches or oxidation , which can become out of control , inflammation

    If inflammation isn't halted , new toxins are released

    Seen as the yellow streak , fatty streak ,observed from surgery , the evidence of heart disease

    The body tries to contain this fatty streak , scarring

    The immune system tries to break down the wall , produces more scarring and the cycle continues

    A good immune system , will weaken the wall of the artery and chew through the scar tissue

    Rupture will occur , more inflammation and potentially deadly cycle continues

    If the cycle isn't stopped , the fatty streak grows to plaque

    Some foam cells die , releasing lipids , which develop into the lipid soft core , yellow substance

    There is a fibrous cap , or stable plaque

    The more inflammation continues > more foam cells > more macrophages > lipid core enters bloodstream > blood signal , foreign object > blood clot forms to keep the lipid core from spreading

    The blood clot is protective mechanism

    The downside is that the clot prevents oxygen getting to the heart > heart attack
     
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  3. river Valued Senior Member

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    If I may continue just a little bit further

    From the books point of view , who is saying this isn't clear , but anyway

    " lowering cholesterol indiscriminately Might theoretically decrease the " fire " in your artery walls but at what cost ? "

    The ecology of the landscape is what is an important consideration

    Inflammation is the more important consideration and oxidation , not so much the cholesterol

    Food is the biggest consideration

    Then they get into chapter 4

    SUGAR: the real demon in the diet



    By the way trippy I'm glad you got me to explain further from the book , I learned more completely what the mechanisms of plaque is

    Thanks

    river
     
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  5. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks, River and Trippy, for explaining this in more detail.

    Actually it seems to me everyone is in violent AGREEMENT that small LDL particles [that just happen to contain cholesterol] get between the cells, oxidise and set up an inflammatory response, hence plaques and hence disease.

    So it seems the real criticism of these authors is that they are busy attacking an Aunt Sally, viz. the "cholesterol myth". This myth exists in popular consciousness, due to superficial reporting of the real process, but does not represent mainstream medical opinion. So the authors are not boldly challenging some entrenched theory, still less exposing a conspiracy.

    And that's it, really.
     
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  7. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    Yeah, and I've been trying to explain that to River, seemingly with limited success.
     
  8. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    For OP, I had a thread on the topic, look for it...

    Actually, no. There are just as many people getting heart attacks with low cholesterol. The short answer is, it is the quality of your cholesterol what counts. High Tryg numbers with high VLDL puts you at risk, but most places don't check for VLDL. So if one is worried, just push your trygs down with fish oil..

    Oh yes, and inflammation. So ad something anti-inflamatory and you are good to go...
     
  9. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    Nope, he (the poster) was right. The original idea of Ansel Keys was total BS. Nevertheless it got stuck in the mind of doctors and the pharma industry just loved to make statins. Sidenote: statins do work but not by lowering cholesterol. They have also ani-inflamatory properties and probably that's what really help...

    I took fish oil and Niacin and dropped my cholesterol from 290 to 230. No statin needed. Trygs went down from 205 to 130. Watch "Fat head" (specially the second part of it) on Youtube, you will be enlightened...

    The whole "everyone should be taking statins" approach is probably the biggest medical lie...
     
  10. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    12,671
    Let's summarize it quickly. Cholesterol number (the sum) is a marker. A marker is something that can be measured and used for making conclusions. Unfortunatelly, the cholesterol number itself is a very insignificant marker of heart attack risks. The correlation basicly is non-existent, low cholesterol number people get just as many heart attacks. (explain that)
    What a good marker (high correlation) is the high Tryg number with high VLDL (very low density lipid) and inflammation.

    So if one wants to drop his/her risk of heart attack, check for VLDL too, and push down the Tryg number and take something anti-inflammatory.

    That's about it. And don't listen to your doctor... And eat lots of fat, they actually help. Sidenote: most of the cholesterol is made in your liver, you are not getting it from food...
     
  11. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    Do us a favour next time Syzygys...

    Actually take the time to read the thread, and don't quote out of context.
     
  12. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    I have, but given that it's obvious that you haven't even read my posts in their entirety, let alone this thread, you wouldn't know that.
     
  13. morguncooper Registered Member

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    1
    Suggestion!!

    I totally agreed with you "Trippy"
    See as it is very rightly said that " Every coin has two sides " In the same way we can't say that what ever we are in hailing or eating would give us a good and healthy natural diet??
    Isn't it??
     

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