Should gay couples be allowed to adopt children?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Jolly Rodger, Oct 16, 2003.


Do you think gay couples should be allowed to adopted children

  1. yes

    77 vote(s)
  2. no

    36 vote(s)
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  1. J.B Banned Banned

    It is funny how we are taught that our behaviour will influence our childrens behaviour.
    But, for some reason when it come to homosexual behaviour some people want us to believe that this will not effect children at all.
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  3. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

    if heterosexuality could be taught by being raised in a heterosexual family there wouldn't be homosexuals.
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  5. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

    what he hell are you talking about?
    homosexuality is not a choice, nor is it affected by parents. its a natural process, from a chemical imbalance of estrogen. it all happens before birth.
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  7. J.B Banned Banned

    Life is not perfect, we try to make the best odds for our children so that they can have the best lives possible. Just because a parent smokes does not mean there children will smoke, but the odds are higher that they will.

    I think it is just common sence that children will tend to act like there parents.

    I'm a heterosexual and I hope my children will be heterosexual also. I believe I can influence heterosexual behaviour in my children as I believe homosexuals can influence homosexual behaviour in there's.

    To believe that somehow a parent can have absolutly no influence what so ever in a childs sexual behaviour, is clearly the thought of a fool.
  8. fadeaway humper that way lies madness Registered Senior Member

    To believe that somehow a parent can have any influence at all in a child's sexual behaviour, is clearly the "thought" of a retard.

    How old are you? Fifteen? Or maybe you live in Arkansas? Never mind, then.
  9. VossistArts 3MTA3 Registered Senior Member

    the thing is heterosexuality and homosexuality are alike. in both cases there is one sexual preferrence or orientation. a hetero male or female is attracted to a their gender opposite, the homosexual is attracted to their gender same. sexual orientation is determined by choice or pathology. the reason there are more heterosexual oriented people is obvious. a large percentage of new people (children) are exposed to a mother and a father, or if in a single parent situation are still more exposed to other heterosexual couples than gay couples. in cases where some pathology determines orientation, im sure it can seem in many cases as though orientation is somehow predetermined, like being born with it. were not born with it. we learn it or become conditioned to it. i am strictly a heterosexual person but i recognize that as being conditioned. im very close with male and female friends alike but have no desire whatsoever to be physically intimate with men. but i was raised around men and boys who acted openly repulsed sometimes to the point of violent behaviour by the idea of same sex intimacey if ever it were brought up. i learned to feel the way i do. so, yeah, my conclusion has been the bisexually oriented people are the healthiest or most functional as far the sexual orientation options go.
  10. fadeaway humper that way lies madness Registered Senior Member

    And just where did you learn that? Perusing Chick tracts, perhaps?
    Did you choose to get a boner the first time you became aware of a girl's appeal, or did you get it because your buddies were also getting boners and you didn't want to feel excluded?

    Face it, it just happened. You didn't choose it, and nobody taught it to you.
  11. Mystech Adult Supervision Required Registered Senior Member

    Let me guess, your kids are still prepubesant, and certainly not yet into their teens, right?

    Ho ho, hey hey, how do you know your kids aren't gay?

    If parrents had any real say in the sexuality of their children, then I'm afraid I wouldn't be on the phone every night with a younger friend of mine who's driving himself crazy with fear that he'll be abandoned by his family when they learn that, despite his many ardent attempts (which sadden and pained him every bit as much as it disturbed me) to "straighten himself out", trying to calm him and steer him away from any morbid suicidal thoughts.

    By the way, note to gay kids: Get the hell out of Salt Lake City!

    Also, Hapsburg, I appreciate your attempt to fight for the "it's not a choice" argument, a conclusion which is certainly correct, but for the sake of having more people on the right side making sound arguments, I'm going to have to call you on your ascertain that estrogen has anything at all to do with it. I don't know many gay men that grow tits, for one, and trust me, there's nothing at all that prevents a gay man from being a testosterone fueled neanderthal the likes of which probably stuffed a few of us in lockers back in highschool. The more subtle (and I assume innocent) implication that all gay men are girlier than straight men is a common myth.
  12. Mystech Adult Supervision Required Registered Senior Member

    Exactly, if homosexuality were a learned behavior then how is it that we've always had homosexuals in our culture despite the fact that it's treated as a complete anathema, and promotion and pandering to heterosexuality is literally everywhere in our culture (Turn on the TV for 15 minuets, and count how many breasts you see jiggling up and down trying to sell you this or that product). Also, being that there certainly aren't any parents raising their kids trying to "make them gay", where are these gay kids coming from?

    With the startling surge of acceptance of homosexuals that we saw in the 90s, especially in pop-youth culture why haven't the numbers of homosexual youths skyrocketed? How has homosexuality persisted with such consistency despite these factors? By any model which says that it's a learned behavior, it simply could not happen. . . but then it has.
  13. Mystech Adult Supervision Required Registered Senior Member

    In your description of your upbringing you make the very common mistake of assuming that somehow any of this would be different for a homosexual. Allow me to share some background around my own eventual coming to terms of the fact that I am gay.

    I was raised in a two parent household, mother and father in what I would describe as being an actually functional household, we had our share of minor problems, as does any family, but certainly nothing that anyone would be able to turn into a lifetime network TV movie. I love my parents, they both played a big part in my upbringing, they were supportive of me always, even if I screwed up or got in a fight at school, or the like, and always took an interest in what was best for me. They weren't all touchy-feely new age or anything (It’s not only liberal parents that raise gay children – if I had a dime for every time I hear the whining of some kid bitching about how hard his conservative Christian parents would beat him if they ever find out that they were making out with another guy at some party. . .), and I got whupped now and again when I was really bad, but nothing that would constitute abuse (unless spankings or a slap across the face for having a particularly fresh mouth are too much for your standards of parental discipline). My home life, raised in the suburbs, was about as average as they come, and pretty much as stable and safe an environment as the 80s/90s could provide. My friends were your typical group of collard shirt wearing dorks that invest any school in a good neighborhood and as any gang of dumb kids we often poked fun at one another and called each other "fag" and talked about how "gay" this or that thing was, and a healthy does of homophobia was certainly instilled in us all. When we went out to catch a movie, we all sat in he same row, but always with that single seat between us to let the casual observer know, "We're together, but not 'together'" whenever possible, as do most self-respecting heterosexual guys. Shortly I, just as pretty much every homosexual grew up in the same exact culture as any other American, did the same things, and for a lot of us.

    Many go through a good portion of our adolescence thinking of ourselves as straight (some even on into their middle ages!) - ignoring the fact that girls aren't really interesting us so much Oh, my friends are all just big perves, that's all, I'm more level headed, that's why I'm not going nuts trying to score with chicks ignoring crushes on other guys, It's just an envy thing, he's so good looking and funny, of course I'd want to be with-er be him. and doing our best to rationalize strange sexual experiences, and wet dreams with leave us laying awake in our beds and feeling extremely embarrassed It's because I'm young. . . teenagers are volatile sacks of hormones, it was just a dream after all, these things are bound to happen! I'm sure I read most guys have a homosexual fantasy now and again when they're going through puberty!.

    It's not as if homosexuals grow up in some sort of isolated bubble separate from all the things that you know and feel have shaped your life (and possibly your own sexuality). A very small number of homosexuals were sexually abused as children, and I've yet to see any studies which suggest that there's even a higher percentage of homosexuals that were abused as kids than heterosexuals. For me, the idea that I was gay seemed to be an entirely absurd surprise, just like any of you my self-identity quite assuredly told me that was a "normal" heterosexual kid, part of "us" and homosexuals were just some weird inconsequential "Them" who had their own issues and ways of living. Well, five years now after a brief period of great confusion, crying myself to sleep, and dealing with a new sense of paralyzing vulnerability as my self-perception was turned entirely on it's head, I'm fairly willing to admit that it's not just some phase or result of over-active hormones. I realize that dating girls bores the hell out of me (as my high-school sweetheart observed after, despite her admittedly forward come-ons I had to admit that I was bored with her in a romantic sense, and I had to tell her that I thought we made better friends than trying to be lovers) and that getting together with other guys as a romantic prospect is what feels most satisfying and natural to me. I look ahead to my future, where I want to be, and being in a steady loving relationship with another guy sort of fills my heart with a warm sense of longing and excitement at finding the right partner for me. With a girl. . . well they make fine friends, but trying to see myself in any sort of romantic context with one just seems entirely awkward and unnatural.

    The idea that there's some fundamental difference in which homosexuals are raised which leads them to end up having the sexual desires which they do is entirely absurd. We're all living in the same culture, we're the men and women standing right next to you, your classmates, your neighbors, your coworkers, and as mundane and unremarkable as you may see yourself, there are plenty of us which are in the exact same boat. Homosexuality isn't something that happens to your kids if you raise them wrong or let them have bad-influences. It's just something that happens! Maybe at some point we can all just deal with that, and move on. Frankly, this is a lot of moaning and bellyaching for nothing.

    If you're willing to accept what I'm saying here, then it may raise a few questions in your mind about why there obviously are some differences, some would say a distinct culture of homosexuals as opposed to say most everyone else. Why have they got their own clubs, their own bars, why do they have to have pride, and what’s up with those bizarre parades? I find confusion over these sorts of things, mostly among disaffected white males who want to make them out to somehow be some sort of attack on them, “Well there ain’t no straight pride parades, so why should gays have one?!”. To be honest, I’ve never fully understood why these things should be such a problem to anyone, but I figure it’s worth addressing briefly, simply because the sentiment itself definitely is out there. These separations have arisen largely because of the separation imposed between “us” and “them” on the part of society in general. As soon as I began identifying myself a being gay I was extremely disturbed by how differently people look at me. They no longer saw just another nerdy scrawny kid, suddenly I’m just “the gay” and people define me through a set of preconceptions which they think are supposed to go along with that. It’s society at large which has necessitated displays of solidarity, and of social retreats designed to cater to those afflicted and pushed into society’s “them” category. Well, and aside from that it’s really convenient knowing that you’re not going to have a bottle broken over your head when trying to pick someone up. Also as another brief point, before I have to run off to class here in about five minuets, I’d also note that “gay culture” isn’t something that’s necessarily enjoyed by many, or possibly even most homosexuals. For every guy wearing daisy dukes and a muscle-shirt dancing to awful techno music in some club downtown there’s got to be at least one other fag who looks at such a display in just the same way as anyone else would, “Sorry, but that’s like sooooo not my scene”. And that’s just fine. To each their own, after all not every homosexual is as interested in the bar/club scene just as not all young people want to have anything to do with the whole techno-rave scene. This last bit may be a little messy, but I’ve got to run, so that’s as far as I can refine it for now!
  14. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    There is a difference, J.B., between "it won't make them gay" and "it has no effect at all".

    What effect might gay parents have on children? Well, the children might be more tolerant of people in general. The children, facing the possibility of their own homosexuality, might avoid the ego dystonic phase that the APA refuses to classify as an independent psychological disorder since it seems most gays go through it in response to homophobic societal conditioning.

    And tolerance and calm thinking just might have its benefits. I have a friend, for instance, a bright young woman of a quarter-century, who tends toward a more acute form of self-destruction than many, though in the grand scheme it ain't so bad. Nonetheless, it's cause for concern; in terms of damage done, she's still in the "lucky" column. The emotional seed of her discontent, though, has very little to do with her lesbian mothers. Rather, it has to do with her father, who learned of his wife's sexuality at a time when the last thing in the world that would have occurred to him was that there was nothing anybody could do about this outcome. It would be nice to ask him his thoughts, but we can't. Blaming himself for his wife's lesbianism, or at least inasmuch as anybody can figure, he would put on The White Album and take his own life, leaving two young daughters to wonder what the hell just happened.

    If we lived in a tolerant world, one in which homosexuals are free from harassment, and need not fear their neighbors' irrationality any more than the next person, we might find some blame for the lesbian mother. But no, a culturally-prevailing homophobia and a ridiculous standard of manhood are the satellites orbiting the nearest thing to a reason anyone can give for his passing. Just like some men marry bulimics, some marry alcoholics, some marry sluts, &c.; just like some women marry wife-beaters, just like some women marry pedophiles, just like, just like, just like--he married someone whose psychology he didn't understand well enough. Perhaps in a more open world, he would have had the cultural knowledge to recognize it. Perhaps there is no consistently reliable gaydar. Perhaps she would have known sooner, and spared him the heartache. If, if, if.


    If we wish to draw a direct connection between the sexualities of parent and child, we may be able to establish that the daughter of a lesbian might put a skilled and nimble tongue on the list of qualities that make up a good man. See, the thing is that said daughter also might develop a revulsion for receiving oral sex. So we might point to both cases hinging a decision about oral sex--putting a focus on oral sex so that there's a decision of any given significance to be made at all--as a possible direct result of a daughter having lesbian parents. But you know, if you're religious enough and in the correct vein, there are church-approved catalogs you can order from that include devices to stop pre-pubescent children from touching their genitals, much as they are predisposed to do. There are books that recommend parents check the underwear of their teenage children to make sure they're not masturbating. That kind of parenting creates a focus, arguably unnatural, on sexuality as well. Even something less severe, like the traditional anti-sexual line given daughters: town slut, bad reputation, living in sin. In history it has gotten so bad as to drive women insane with the guilt of having felt lustful desire at all. Freud's focus on sexuality, while psychology would eventually have tapped that same vein eventually, was in part a byproduct of the conventional social antisexual mores. In the modern day, or at least into the 1990s, our American culture was such that rape survivors agonized over elements of the antisexual mores: "I'm a slut, a bad person; I've done something to deserve this. This is all my fault." How did this happen?

    If we make it important, decisions will hinge on it.


    I would say it's interesting to me how we focus so much on the potential behavior of homosexuals despite the appropriate professional opinions to the other: this topic worries about issues that, for instance, the American Psychiatric Association, does not see reflected in reality. Children of gay parents do as well or better than their peers on average.

    As a child of the 1980s heavy metal censorship wars, I am firm in my assertion that music does not carry such influence as to be a primary factor in a suicide. It might serve as a symbolic catalyst, a point of nihilistic catharsis, but in a violent home with substance- and spouse-abusing parents, the problem must necessarily be the music that a child is listening to?

    Bearing that in mind: Britney Spears does more damage to sexuality in the United States than gay parents could ever do as an independent subclass. Parents in general--hetero- as well as homosexual--will continue to screw up their children for generations. We're at a point where we can start fixing one of those problems. Sure, there's a thousand others, but this is the one the fearful have chosen to put before the public: homophobes would hear less from and about gays if they just let it be.

    I understand that the crumbling of one's political foundation is a scary experience, but this is what homophobes and traditionalists choose. The reality is that the homophobic, traditionalist argument is conceived of a mixture of exaggerations; at this point, some of those exaggerations seem programmed into people's brains, so it's hard to decide whether they're victims or predators. But I must stress that this discussion can go nowhere, whether here at Sciforums or in the culture at large, until the homophobes stop living on histrionics.

    I don't know, J.B., whether your question is an intentional exaggeration or something you can't see, but the issue is only valid if we presume that the genders of our children's sexual partners is the only way in which a gay parent's homosexuality will affect the child's process of making decisions. See, that part is actually a non-issue. The American Academy of Pediatrics says there's no difference; a homophobic organization called NARTH disagrees:

    There is no explanation in part because none is needed. Or, at least, for psychologists and even the armchair pundits who aren't already sold to a counterintuitive model such as Christianity. (The website for the author, one "Dr. Throckmorton" (professor of psychology, Grove City College; it should be noted that the slogan on the GCC website is "Challenging Academics, Authentically Christian, Amazing Value") is hilarious.

    There's a reason Doc Throckmorton doesn't see it: it's subtle, but intuitive. Regardless of the raw number of homo- or bi-sexual compulsions two different children might feel, child A, whose parents are gay, might give that higher rating because s/he does not reject or demonize or hide from them as often as child B, whose parents have inherently taught him/her to fear the homosexual impulse. It could be that the children in column A have just as few or many impulses as those in column B, but respond to it differently. In terms of psychology, the mindset of column B is more problematic to the self than column A.

    Something I've mentioned before, but serves well to recall here, is that while even my mother thinks I'm gay, my brother won't consider the question unless I drop it on the table. I'm closeted only in 10% of my life, and I figure I'll take care of that when I get around to making a real decision about it. In the meantime, none of my friends have any pretense that I'm straight, and my rule is to generally only acknowledge it when it comes up so directly that I must. However, the curious and even creepy reality is that, for all the climbing of the walls I do, I can't tell you when I last had another man. Seriously, I can't even pin down the year for you right now because part of the interim has become blurred. But it's something like five or six years, I think. I couldn't even tell you who right now.

    And you know, I hear from all these conservatives how slutty gay men are, and it's bullshit. Seriously, I don't go out trolling for men because it's not worth the effort. For whatever reason, I'm just not attractive to gay men. Seriously, I can remember one particularly shameful night in which I couldn't beg a lay. I don't mind being some closet case's drunken last resort, but it just doesn't come up that often.

    The larger point of that extraneous detail is that mere lack of fear does not consistently translate into action. That lack of fear must also be combined with the socially-prevailing capitalist notion that we do something, climb something, take something, &c., because it's there, that we make something because we can. Dr. Throckmorton, for instance, doesn't seem to understand this, and perhaps that's just a random circumstance, or perhaps it's caused by his predisposition for the counterintuitive. ("Exaggerated diversity", a simplistic caricature of a "diversity mindset", a failure to understand even the most basic subtleties of human internalized classification, seems to be the problem. It's the result of generalizing too many factors as dualisms instead of accounting for the subtleties of a diverse but thematically-predictable humanity.)

    As a last anecdotal note, the only reason I'm closeted in 10% of my life is that I never did answer for myself the question of whether or not I was gay before I decided that it didn't matter. Perhaps that does make me unique; certainly there were certain signs, although I don't know what the outward and public signs were, but people have presumed me gay since I was in the second grade. When the issue finally came up in my life, the effect of years of homophobic insults classifying me as a faggot was to not run screaming from it. Rather, I internalized it, chewed over it for a while, the situation passed, and when it came up again a few years later, the transition was natural. And the crude intimacy of that particular occasion actually seemed familiar.

    Perhaps if I wasn't so used to the idea that I was a faggot, I would have recoiled, or at least hesitated. Maybe not. But it wasn't gay parents, or pinko teachers who softened up my regard for gays. It was homophobes. In fact, to be more accurate, there was no regard for gays to soften up. It was homophobia that introduced me to the idea, that placed the association within my familiarity, that made homosexuality something I could accept as part of me.

    I suppose I should thank them; life goes on.
  15. J.B Banned Banned

    Gee, I wonder if a mother where to act like a slut that it is possible that could influence her daughter to act like a slut also?

    To think it is impossible to influence a childs sexual behaviour in anyway, is still the thought of a fool.
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2005
  16. Proud Girl Banned Banned

    I had to join this forum when I saw this thread; I think this is a very important topic....
    Men and men relationships and women and women relationships come from the fear of committing and settling down, fags dykes can always just go out and party when ever they want because most of the society already thinks they are fucked and so why try and be good if every one thinks your fucked....
    I mean once I was at this job that I didn't like anymore so I started fucking around because I didn't want the job so the bosses started getting angry with me and staying that I have to pull my head in, so I just turned up the volume on my goy-o-meter and was as camp as the woods, so then in the end I did absolutely no work and pretty much turned up to the office off my tits on e and drunk smoked a jay in the toilets everything
    Although it took them ages to fire me and when they finally did3 months after deciding to start the whole fan fair, they paid me out as well a huge settlement,
    Only for the fact that I am gay and that they didn't want to get into trouble for firing a gay person.
    At the end of the day we have a shit load more rights than you as a minority, we can do what ever we want, I think giving us children though might unbalance the scales even more, because at the end of the day, we already shit all over you breeders anyway, we can do what ever when ever how ever, loll

    Go the foreign association of gays (F.A.G.)
  17. J.B Banned Banned

    Homosexuals are not able to produce children without using hetrosexual methods.

    Nature does not want these people to raise children.
  18. Proud Girl Banned Banned

    nature doesn't care about me and i dont care about it
  19. J.B Banned Banned

    I noticed homosexuals are always pretty angry people, being homosexual must be a very frustrating and unfufilling life.
  20. Proud Girl Banned Banned

    no it is great dont have to worry about anything, because people already think bad of us so why bother trying to fit in when your an outcast\
    Fuck the world
  21. J.B Banned Banned

    I am glad you are here Proud Girl, you are a perfect example of a homosexual person.

    Would you like to raise some children? I'm sure they would turn out just fine.
  22. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    That's not true anymore.

    Proud Girl (girl?),
    I'm afraid of commitment, too, but that doesn't make me want to be gay. Gay people can commit to each other, too, so what's the difference?
  23. J.B Banned Banned

    Really? you don't need a sperm and a egg?

    Do tell.
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