Should atheism be recognised?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by S.A.M., Mar 9, 2009.

?

Should atheism be recognised?

  1. Yes, I want to be recognised for the stuff I don't believe in

    4 vote(s)
    44.4%
  2. No, its stupid to have a category for NOT believing in something

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Got better things to think about

    5 vote(s)
    55.6%
  4. My opinion, which is better than yours, is given in a post below

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,166
    I believe that grass is usually always green, unless the sun or fire burns it into a different colour. Is my belief in the colour of grass the result of my not believing in God? Or is it merely a statement of truth about something that can be clearly observed by one and all?

    Why do we have to believe in "other things" if we don't believe in any God?

    Theists have this distinct 'thing' about people needing to believe in something or other, as though not believing in any deity is somehow abnormal or goes against nature. Why is that?
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    Non believers in astrology exist and are present in each and every society. They just don't have a category, because ontological position on the effects of stars on human lives or not, they don't make enough noise about it to be recognised as such.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    43,184
    No there is a code for everyone, society makes it.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    43,184
    So if I ask someone on the street "Do you believe in God ?" and he says "No", he is acting out the requirement of atheism to declare himself an atheist ?

    :crazy:
     
  8. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    Umm yeah?
     
  9. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    43,184
    Yea ?? :bugeye:
    What a complete and utter nonsense.


    As a side note, he could just as easily be agnostic..
     
  10. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    Not if he doesn't believe in God.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    An agnostic has no position on God.
     
  11. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    43,184
    No positive position then either. So he does not believe in God.
     
  12. Cellar_Door Whose Worth's unknown Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,310
    Can I ask, what exactly is the point of this thread?
     
  13. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    43,184
    Good question.
     
  14. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    An absence of both positions is not confirmation of one. Please be logical.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  15. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    43,184

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    The position is not whether or not you believe in God. The position is whether or not you can know if God exists or not.
    If you believe you cannot have a favorite color, you don't have one.
     
  16. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    If youre blind and have a favorite colour, thats an agnostic atheist.
     
  17. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    43,184
    So how does a blind man go from blind to not blind ?
     
  18. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,968
    It shouldn't need to be recognised, and for the most part it isn't.
    What is recognised is a belief in something by people who are atheist.

    jan.
     
  19. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,888
    I apologize. For some reason I read "astronomy" rather than "astrology".

    Believing stars affect our lives is not an ontological position. One can be a believer in astrology and still not add anything unique to their ontology. As such, it is not an individual and unique ontological position, nor is it well defined.

    Do you understand ontology? An "ontological position" (preferably one unique and well-defined) is one that holds a certain number of things exist and a certain other number do not.

    You may have confused this with the epistemological positions, which posit whether or not knowledge can be attained on a given subject. "Agnosticism" is an epistemological position - it states that one can never answer (or, at least at this time in history we cannot answer) the question of whether or not a god or multiple gods exist.

    It is very easy to be both an atheist and an agnostic. In fact, from a realist philosophy point of view, it is the most neutral and undemanding position to take in that it requires no further arguments past the basis of realist philosophy.

    Ontologically Atheist means that in the grand scope of all the things Person X believes to exist, god is not in there. They are not part of the Set Of All Things Person X Believes To Exist.
    Epistemologically Agnostic means that Person X believes that it is impossible to prove a god or gods do or do not exist.

    These two claims sit in perfect harmony with each other. If you change the word "god" to, well, just about anything else, it becomes very clear why this is so.


    Ontologically Without-Belief-In-Aliens means that in the grand scope of all the things Person X believes to exist, aliens are not in there. They are not part of the Set Of All Things Person X Believes To Exist.
    Epistemologically Without-Knowledge-Of-Aliens means that Person X believes that it is impossible to prove aliens do or do not exist.

    I would say this is probably what 90% of the educated world believes towards aliens. We have no proof, have not seen any evidence, and so they are not part of our ontology. Speaking about epistemology, we can easily see that with today's current technology, and with the given massive size of the universe, it is impossible for us to answer the question of alien existence conclusively.

    Do you understand now? I know it's difficult. Frankly, most people who identify themselves as "atheists" or "agnostics" do not actually understand this question or the difference between ontology and epistemology.
     
  20. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    Like I said, you can be blind and still have a favourite colour.
     
  21. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,888
    I'm not sure what you're indicating.

    Sam I've given you what I believe is a very thorough and complete explanation of why being an atheist and an agnostic at the same time is perfectly reasonable. One is about ontology and the other about epistemology. If you'd like further explanation I can try to do so, but I think it's pretty clear in the above.

    If for some reason I can't imagine you disagree that ontology and epistemology are different, or that they don't exist, then I guess you could try to debate that. But you'd be coming up against about 2,300 years of philosophy (much of it, I might add, done by Arab people during the European dark ages). I can't recall a single philosopher - Western or Arab - who didn't distinguish between the two.

    I think I've shown you the respect of laying out a clear case. I'd appreciate it if you extended the same respect. Otherwise, this is really just an exercise in your own ego.
     
  22. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,888
    Sam
    I don't like using wikipedia, but I'm too tired to type of Daniel Dennett or Bertrand Russell. Anyway, both of those books are back in Canada right now!
    Whether or not you understand all this is irrelevant. Agnostic is a statement on epistemology. Atheist is a statement on ontology. They are distinct and different. Your lack of willingness to acknowledge the distinction between theories of existence (ontology) and theories of knowledge (epistemology) is just kind of strange.
     
  23. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    Not at all. The fact that you cannot see colour [knowledge] should in no way preclude your having a favorite [existence]. Belief is distinct from evidence.
     

Share This Page