Should a Man be Forced to Pay Child Support for a Child He Wanted to Abort?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Betrayer0fHope, Sep 10, 2008.

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Should a Man be Forced to Pay Child Support for a Child He Wanted to Abort?

  1. Yes

    67.4%
  2. No

    32.6%
  1. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    25,817
    How fair is it to the child that the dad cared more about his wallet?
     
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  3. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    how far is it to the child that the mother cared more about her figure than its life?????
     
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  5. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    I seriously wonder about the women you know. :bugeye:
     
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  7. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    sorry, i dont actually belive that. im just using the anti abortion lobbies arguments
     
  8. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    I don't of any anti-abortionists that have said that either. It must be different down under
     
  9. Betrayer0fHope MY COHERENCE! IT'S GOING AWAYY Registered Senior Member

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    2,311
    In this very thread, people are talking about how having a child ruins a woman's body. And anyways, if you care so little about your wallet and so much about children, why haven't you donated thousands of dollars, which you certainly don't need, to those who will die without it?
     
  10. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    25,817
    we bought an ark last year. I help however I can when I can. I guarantee you I do more than you.
    And I raised a son without the help of his father after he BEGGED me to have a kid. Then he changed his mind. If the rules change like you and Asguard want them to, he would have been first in line to say "I didn't want that kid". Men walk away every day. You want to make that easier for them.
     
  11. Betrayer0fHope MY COHERENCE! IT'S GOING AWAYY Registered Senior Member

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    Do you need every penny you have to survive? Yes or no question, don't make it more than that.
     
  12. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,884
    Notes Around

    I don't agree with the phrase "innocent child". As I've stated before in discussions of the general abortion debate, I have a dryfoot policy: The "child" gets its status when it makes it out of the womb. And, coincidentally—and relevant to our discussion here—that's when the father's rights and responsibilities set in. Furthermore, we are dealing with the almost paradoxical twist that the complaint arises when a woman doesn't have an abortion.

    Now, to note our friend Mr. Anders—

    —I would like to reiterate a question, Asguard:

    What is the equivalent principle that men face?​

    • • •​

    And, yet, Sisyphus is happy. If not, he should put down the rock and walk away.

    • • •​

    It's his own fault. If he failed to recognize and prepare for that possibility, it's nobody's fault but his own.

    And, yes, I've been there before, so to speak. My partner lied to me about her reproductive status. And, as I've noted before, if I had put two minutes' effort into researching what she was talking about, I would have realized this. Yes, I think she's a chronic liar, and I've believed that for years—well before my daughter was conceived. But it doesn't change the fact that I blindly hopped on for the ride.

    Seriously:

    I need to have a certain medical treatment before we can reproduce — Um, okay. (This is what I failed to look up.)

    I don't like condoms. They're not comfortable. — Um, okay.

    The pill is bad for my health. — Okay. Whatever.

    Come inside me! That's right! Ungggh! — Um ... okay!​

    Seriously.

    Yes, seriously!

    Any guy who is willing to blindly climb on as soon as he hears what he wants—"Of course I'll have an abortion"—is simply fooling himself. Now, maybe the woman does go on to have the abortion. But he should not be surprised if nature wins out when the woman faces the choice directly. If he has failed to account for this possibility, instead pretending that nature—of which humanity is a mere component—is wholly subordinate to abstract human will, whose fault is that?
     
  13. Betrayer0fHope MY COHERENCE! IT'S GOING AWAYY Registered Senior Member

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    2,311
    Because the woman happens to be the one to carry the baby, it is the man's fault if she gets pregnant?
     
  14. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    23,049
    tiassa though i agree with you that a child doesnt become a child until its viable that is a choice not a fact. Alot of people disagree with us on this and all i have been using is the anti abortion lobbies arguments symply because i find the whole debate hypocritical.
     
  15. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    ops i didnt finish my post, my bad

    tiassa do you rember a debate we were having AGES ago on abortion?

    now my opinion then was that if a women was pregant with a regular partner then the decision to abort or not over non medical reasons should be a joint one.

    xev on the other hand pointed out that a womens body is her own and insted the law should say that the man has to pay her the amount it would cost to get an abortion and then be able to walk away and its HER decision what she does
     
  16. Betrayer0fHope MY COHERENCE! IT'S GOING AWAYY Registered Senior Member

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    2,311
    I guess my position is the same as xev's then, because I stated earlier in this thread that the man should be the one to pay for the abortion, simply because of the procedure(can I call an abortion that?) she has to go through.
     
  17. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    23,049
    actually BOH that means he would have to pay nothing here

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    they are done in public hospitals with no cost

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  18. Simon Anders Valued Senior Member

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    He shares the responsibility. If he carried the kid in his womb and a 7 pound baby was going to come out of a relatively small hole 'down there' you can be damn sure he would not give a shit what the woman said. He would decide himself. Despite all that he should deal with the consequences of his choice to have sex with a woman he seems not to know very well.
     
  19. Betrayer0fHope MY COHERENCE! IT'S GOING AWAYY Registered Senior Member

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    2,311
    Then how about the woman's annual income/100?
     
  20. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,884
    This and that

    Not exactly. More to the point, because she happens to carry the baby, how does that fact excuse him of his responsibilities?

    The selfishness of your argument is disgusting. Since we're in EM&J, I will make the point that I find it odd how much of the time what people assert is ethical, moral, or just coincides so neatly with their own self-interest.

    • • •​

    That's Xev.

    To the other, at what point does the fact of a living child in the world come into the discussion?

    This discussion centers on how the men are so unjustly hurt. The only justice, then, in order to get back at the woman who won't have an abortion, is to stiff the kid.

    It's an untenable proposition as I see it.

    Justice is not always about the self.
     
  21. Simon Anders Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,535
    I think this kind of situation gives him the right to be damn upset. But then, it will still be his child and his intuition was bad.

    If I remember right you are a woman. The situation you described above is one that you realized was possible. Men should realize that is possible too.
    I sure do.

    I also have to say that EVEN in that situation, I would want to take care of that child and have him or her be a part of my life, however much I resented being hijacked. The child will be that man's child. Does he want the mother struggling to make ends meet. Does he want the rest of us to pay for that child via tax dollars?

    If he really can document such a conversation AND the woman is well off, then I am beginning to think he can skip the financial part.
     
  22. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    this argument could be used against pro choice females as well you know


    the anti abortion lobby would like it to come in the second the egg is fertilised
     
  23. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,884
    That could get to be a mess

    One of the problems I foresee with such a scenario is that we'll have a booming industry of family lawyers representing children suing their fathers for lack of support, and naming their mothers as conspirators.

    I'm just not sure this is something a court would let a mother throw away on her child's behalf. I mean, death is death, right? If the father's dead, the kid doesn't have that father. But to tell a child that he or she doesn't have the right to parents? That's fucked up ... ain't it?

    And then the disgruntled father, in addition to paying back support, will also have to cover whatever ridiculous legal bills were involved.

    Come on ... can't we screw the lawyers this time? Just once?

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    • • •​

    Yes. Those horrible women. How could they even imagine they should have a say what happens inside their own bodies?

    In other words, sir, yes, it could be used, but to lesser effect.

    Why are you falling back on the anti-abortion lobby? Should I presume, then, that your answer is never? That is, that the child never enters this discussion?
     

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