Ok, then. I get that. Punishment would be wrong if freewill is an illusion. But isn't it all moot if there is no freewill. In spite of the illusion that we act freely, nothing can change anything, and it all unfolds without deviation from the determined outcomes. It is like nothing matters. On the other hand, Freewill, and the concepts of right and wrong, make living a dynamic experience. And incidentally, that leads to another bit of my philosophy; conscience and self-image. I spoke of forgiveness and forgetting, and to my way of thinking the stimulus for seeking forgiveness is related to our conscience. It is an observable that humans have a natural proclivity to have a conscience. I consider it likely that it is a learned aspect of living, instilled in us by our parents and/or experiences, like how we individually acquire our concepts of right and wrong. We certainly can override our conscience, just like we can decide to override our sense of right and wrong. But is there a greater influence that we personally impose on ourselves; like being governed by a self image that can have differing degrees of influence, from one individual to another? If so, then one measure an individual might apply to one's self might be how consistent they are to their self-set values. Said differently, individuals might measure themselves by how faithful they are to their own set of values.