Sexual harassment

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by timojin, Nov 21, 2017.

  1. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

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    13,877
    I wish I had an answer for that. "Locker room talk" always kind of bugged me - I would hear it and sometimes wonder if they were aware they were talking about another human being, yet sounding like it was a cut of meat. Just irritated me.
     
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  3. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    26,906
    Not always. It's just harder to notice.
    Big, thug-looking guys can tell you what it's like to be treated as some kind of stereotype, or maybe furniture, for example.
    This guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_D'Onofrio has been articulate and observant on the topic, as have a couple of my relatives.
     
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  5. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Then I am sorry you live in that world. It does indeed happen, but fortunately it is rare in most of the US (and getting rarer, which is a good thing.) We may never achieve the goal of zero harassment, but working on getting close to that number is a worthy goal.
     
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  7. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    26,906
    There's a tangent here, not directly relevant to the more significant and overriding issue of socially sanctioned and culturally established abuse directed at women in particular but maybe worth marking for the future:

    The stereotype that exaggerated or striking sex-linked characteristics correlate with low intelligence applies to men as well as women. Big, strong, thicknecked, squarejawed, brow-ridged, beady-eyed, small-faced, gravel-voiced, men are regarded - and treated - as stupid, in ways that appear to align with the stereotype of slim, big-eyed, heart-faced, large-breasted, wide-hipped, bird-voiced, women as bimbos.

    In that line, an old Russian proverb: clever father, clever daughter; clever mother, clever son.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
  8. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    9,212
    Because, simply having a vagina does not mean one is bound to the party line of everyone else who has one. (That would actually be sexist.)

    Clearly, many in the porn industry recognize that they stand to profit by getting their audience aroused.
     
  9. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,877
    FWIW -
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ttractive-study-finds/?utm_term=.85a919fa76f2

    Granted, this study only used college students but... like I said, FWIW.
     
  10. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077


    i think sexual harassers are essentially narcs. they really aren't any different in essence than those who take it further such as rape, pedophilia, murder etc. the common trait is no respect for another's rights or boundaries. it's all about what they want from you and even more scary when it comes to even the usual sexual harasser, you can tell they would probably rape you if they knew they could for sure get away with it too. meaning if it was a lawless land, their values would not prevent them from doing so.

    the difference between a sexual harasser and those who take it to a furthest level is the law is a deterrant in some form and they respect the law as far as it consequences to themselves if caught and the latter don't respect the law at all or are completely confident they will never get caught.
     
  11. ajanta Registered Senior Member

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    611
    Hmmm!
    With my current known...... It's still happening in India, Bangladesh.
     
  12. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077


    rapey



    this is politically more incorrect and honest about what is going on
     
  13. KUMAR5 Registered Senior Member

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    Because many or most countries respect fundamental, moral, natural or human law: "Right to life & personal liberty". So women by it should be entitled to opt anything, they like. Obviously, if some countries or culture restrict anything socially, that can come into force against it.
     
  14. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077


    the problem with sexual harassment is the perpetrator knows there is a gray area to still be inappropriate (violating other's personal space, making others uncomfortable, treating them as an object etc) and they take advantage of it without going so extreme to get into trouble with the law as in physical contact or if there is physical contact, it's not so extreme that they might take a chance that it will be minimized or viewed as silly if taken seriously.

    she was just fortunate it occurred in a business where she could take immediate recourse but in general much of what is sexual harassment is not reported because it happens so quickly, cannot always be predicted and can occur in the most random of situations and places. also, these are social faux paus/rudeness, even if they are the kind that make people feel unsafe, wary and ill at ease in public. especially for women, have to be wary of men at all times in public if they are by themselves usually.

    notice how she was flustered/surprised (because it's so rude/unexpected/inappropriate), questioning herself and her own judgement, including her intuition/gut instincts etc. that's common for women to do that and blame themselves or wonder why they brought that on.

    even if she was on that machine, she didn't deserve to be treated that way. other proof that perverts don't care what scenario, is that it doesn't matter if she was dressed dowdy or just minding her business just standing somewhere as there are still men who will sexually harass women, just out of pure opportunism.

    there is a shit-ton of ill-raised, subpar and bad or inappropriate people out there, and one of the major ways this plays out is how women in public have to be wary when it comes to men if they are not obviously coupled. the decent men are often not going to notice as they aren't going to be subjected to know much of it.

    almost 99 percent of the time, the perp will use a pretense of innocence when if you read the situation it's not at all. then they use this pretense that you are rude or a 'bitch' when in truth, they are not being considerate and reading how inappropriate it is. that is common for narcissistic personalities and it seems to be more common in people than society admits. society breeds and teaches people to be selfish. otoh, it teaches the same people that others should accept this use of a 'pretense' so no factual evidence of ill or inappropriate intent (yet). this in turn forces others to be as selfish and standoffish to counteract it.

    this is why i detest people who discount intuition in others or as if that's not important because that is how you navigate the gray areas of life people exploit. you have to read the signs and cues before the shit hits the fan or before someone really takes it further and they will take it further if you let them, whether from your misplaced idea of politeness or kindness which they are actually trying to exploit.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
  15. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    ^^^
    It is reasonable to suspect your response will be highly emotional & illogical but this needs to be said : Consenting adults have the right to do what they want regardless of whether you approve. Calling them sluts accomplishes nothing & means nothing more than a bean fart.

    <>
     
  16. birch Valued Senior Member

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    actually, that is technically right and everyone is aware that consenting adults have a right to do what they want to do within the law. however, it's you who are illogical or that's as far as you understand it because many people behave in ways that are still inappropriate (according to one's values) within the law because that's the priviledge of freedom and being one's own person. that still doesn't negate the implications of one' s personal choices and how that may impact/influence the collective and culture as well as those outside of your choices but still impact them.

    if these women were trafficked or were abused or have such low self-esteem that they believe this is all they are good for, or in some cases in impoverished countries where they have no choice, then i would have compassion and not always indicative of being a real slut but the truth is that is not always the case. there are some who make that full-fledged choice with no coercion and no extenuating circumstances. most of them are, aka true sluts.

    porn stars are sluts, that's just a fact. if that fact bothers you, then you are having an emotional reaction. that's okay, as everyone has different values. this idea of 'consent' or 'choice' is a little surprising coming from someone who believes people don't have the power of choice in anything, especially when it comes to perpetrators.

    having sex with full knowledge and 'willingly' with strangers or any random person is the quintessential definition of a slut.

    maybe you need a dictionary as well as realize i did not make up the term.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  17. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    ^^^
    It is not fact. It is your kneejerk emotional biased opinion. You say everyone has different values yet you hold others to your values.
    No. Not everyone is aware that consenting adults have the right to do what they will. I strongly suspect you do not truly know it.
    I certainly do not need a dictionary at this point due to the fact that I have used it so much.
    Whether we truly have choice in what we do does not determine whether consenting adults have the right to do what they will.
    You cannot determine what is or is not appropriate for other consenting adults to do.

    <>
     
  18. birch Valued Senior Member

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    your response is a kneejerk reaction. you do seem to need a dictionary. no, i can't determine others values but i am entitled to my opinion just as you are entitled to your opinion that those who are perpetrators have no 'choice', which you seem to believe is humane because simply you don't care how they affect others. that doesn't mean people will agree with eachothers opinions, however.

    it's pretty telling that of all rights to defend and all posts to choose to reply to, it is often indicative of the lowest common denominator 'morally', that you would like to defend but believe you are morally upstanding because of that. tolerance is not an indication of morality, it is what you are tolerating or not. don't you think?

    yes, i can determine what is inappropriate or appropriate that other consenting adults do. for instance, there are cannibals who mutually consent to eat eachother or even parents who have children for the express purpose of having sex with them (pedophila sites) and teach them it's okay and believe because it's their own children that others and the law have no right to interfere, that others have no right to determine what is inappropriate or appropriate. i, personally, don't think this is appropriate. you may have a different opinion and if you express them, i may disagree with you and vice versa and that's a natural part of debate as well as free speech.

    i can sure have an opinion on the matter just as anyone else, positive or negative. you seem to be under the impression that only a positive opinion is okay.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  19. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    ^^^
    Stop making stupid arrogant asinine assumptions about me.
    I have made no indication that I do not care how perpetrators affect others & you have no frigging right to say that. It is not an opinion, it is a lie you made up.
    You can have your opinion yet your opinion does not determine what is or is not appropriate for other consenting adults.
    Much of what seems to you just is not true.
    You need to frigging calm down & think things thru much better.

    <>
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  20. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077
    fair enough, but i was just going by your posts. i'm not someone who would be rude or mistreat, say, a porn star just because they are one . it's their choice and and i would treat them the same as anyone else but if they asked me my honest opinion on the matter, i would tell them that i may disagree with their choice and why.

    people percieve arrogance in different ways. if you choose to be a slut, then own up to it and be proud of it if they want to. that's their values and choice, doesn't mean another would agree or everyone will. i am not going to sugarcoat it. if you expect society to pretend it's something else or put a false spin on it than what it is just to appease ego, then that's arrogance to me
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  21. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,273
    ^^^
    You are not going by my posts. You have kneejerk emotional reactions to the truths I say then make up assumptive lies. I am not responsible for the fact that you cannot handle reality. You have been extremely rude with absolutely no provocation. You have tried to make childish insults such as dishonest, immoral & others simply because I pointed out unfortunate truths of the human condition.

    Telling someone you disagree with their choice IF they ask is very different from calling them names & pretending you determine what is appropriate for them.
    Maybe they think you are immoral for not being the way they are. That would be their opinion & would not determine how you should live & act. They have no right to try to determine what is appropriate for you. You have no right to try to determine what is appropriate for them.
    If you choose to not be a slut then be proud of it & do not try to condemn others for their choices. You cannot prove your choices are better than theirs.

    IF you expect to be taken seriously, you need to stop trying to attack people simply because you do not approve, agree or understand.

    Values of society change over time & what seems immoral to you may seem fine to your great grandchildren.
    If you expect society to be a good measure of morality, you are an ignorant fool.

    <>
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018

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