Settling Up: Workplace Mass Shootings in the United States

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Jun 6, 2017.

  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member


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    Because, you know ... Orlando just needs this:

    A disgruntled former employee at an Orlando, Florida RV accessory business fatally shot five workers Monday morning before turning the gun on himself, according to the Orange County Sheriff's Office.

    The shooting was first reported around 8 a.m. at the headquarters for Fiamma, Inc. Once deputies arrived on scene, they found three men and one woman already dead, Orange County Sheriff Jerry Demings said during a press conference.

    A fifth man was transported to a nearby hospital where he died, according to Demings.

    Authorities believe suspect John Robert Neumann Jr., 45, who was fired in April, shot himself just before deputies entered the scene two minutes after they were first called, Demings said at a later press conference.

    (Rosenblatt and Silva↱)

    The dead:

    • Kevin Clark, 53
    • Kevin Lawson, 46
    • Brenda Montanez-Crespo, 44
    • Jeffrey Roberts, 57
    • Robert Snyder, 69​

    Kevin Clark's wife died six years ago; his children just ran out of parents↱.


    There are any number of swirling sentiments political, but they do serve to illustrate a more pertinent question: Say what we will about terrorism abroad, or lands in constant warfare, and set aside for the moment the part about how we probably shouldn't be saying a whole lot about a bunch of shit we helped start, but ...

    ... I mean, think about it. This isn't "terrorism". It's a mass killing in a workplace. I think I can almost remember a time when this sort of thing was supposed to be new or shocking, but, no, it never really was. Someone, somewhere, had it comin' to him since before America began. And for a moment I'm thinking back to this one police sweep I used to complain about, picking up my six-four, dark-haired, bearded pot dealer at a time the cops were allegedly looking for a five-seven, blonde shooter; there was really no mistaking one for the other, but, you know, whatever. Seattle.

    Oh, wait. Right. Workplace shootings.

    I can actually remember the morbid pub humor: It's not just the Post Office, anymore.

    Going postal in the boatyard. Okay.

    And that was, like, what, nineteen, twenty years ago?

    Why is this an American way of settling things? Once upon a time we appealed to suicidals that way. And, it's true, I always questioned the wisdom, but still. Something about final solutions and temporary problems, except now they're taking people with them.

    We can say so much about terrorism and how stupid it is to die for God or just the cheap thrills of directionless, purposeless destruction. And that's the thing; before Daa'ish, terrorists at least pretended to have a reason. And say what we will about terrorism, but I'll bet you it sounds like a better reason than anything we might come up with for shooting up an American workplace.

    Still, though, not only are these human beings destroyed by what appears to be vendetta, so also is this a human being so distressed as to settle up whatever disputes in this manner.

    A conversation, for instance, we so rarely get to have:

    "Oh, great. You just shot five people to death. Feel better?"

    No, of course not! That was never the point!

    "Right ... right. So: What was?"​

    This wasn't about the oil companies polluting the water and making the children sick. Nor was it about foreign occupiers. It was, as near as anyone can tell, about a job. Robert Snyder fired the shooter, Neumann, in April.

    Today is just another day in these United States. Six people died in a workplace mass shooting. This is very sad, but it will happen again, soon enough, and no, I'm not expecting to have any better an idea why this is an American way of settling up when it does.


    Rosenblatt, Kalhan and Daneilla Silva. "Orlando Shooting: 5 Killed at RV Business by Angry Ex-Employee". NBC News. 5 June 2017. 5 June 2017.

    Speck, Emilee. "Widower, billiards player among Fiamma Orlando shooting victims". ClickOrlando. 5 June 2017. 5 June 2017.
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  3. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    See, my issue in all this is that people pointed at the London attacks and went "SEE! They used a TRUCK and KNIVES! More gun control won't stop these attacks!"

    Well, yes, it won't stop these attacks... because when it comes down to it, the kinds of folks that will commit these atrocities would resort to using branches torn from trees, chairs, or even bare fists if needed.

    What it WILL do, as evidenced by London, is limit the amount of damage they can inflict.

    I'm all for the right to bear arms... but we have to be smart about it. The question is one of how do we identify those who are likely to "go postal" as it were?

    First and foremost - we have to fucking focus on mental health services, something this country is severely lacking in. As I can personally attest, things like Depression and suicidal behavior can go undiagnosed for years to decades (mine was never noticed through all of late elementary, junior high, high school, and early college... the girl who eventually became my wife is the one that finally noticed it and took steps to help with it. I, meanwhile, was too cowed by the whole "Men shouldn't cry! Stop being a pussy! MAN UP!" mindset that had been drilled into me since... well, basically since I was fucking born!) As a result, I've attempted suicide numerous times in the past (I believe seven or eight times total?). Obviously I never quite succeeded, and thankfully I didn't do any lasting damage to my body in the process.

    My point in all that is simple - we are fucking TERRIBLE at noticing when people are having difficulties. Yeah, people get sad now and again, I get that - but if a co-worker, neighbor, or friend is seemingly in a slump for days at a time, please, reach out to them. Listen to them. Let them know you care...

    Those simple actions could be enough to stop someone snapping entirely.

    Next, if someone IS formally diagnosed with a mental disorder (such as chronic depression, suicidal tendencies, etc), then maybe, just maybe, we shouldn't give them ready access to a firearm. After all, it is one of those tools that can be used, in a moment of weakness or desperation, to inflict severe damage to themselves or others... perhaps it is safer for them to not have the ability to end their life with the pull of a trigger?
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  5. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    In the background of the Ball Game shooting, there was a workplace mass shooting:

    If memory serves, not the first shooting at a package delivery warehouse - Fed Ex, UPS, etc.

    They seem to have at least partly supplanted the Post Office in disgruntled employee violence, in tandem with taking over the Post Office's package delivery role? Granted that was exaggerated in the first place - - -
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  7. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Yup. Never mind terrorism - plain ol' homegrown gun mentality is a very serious issue.
  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Today in these United States

    Another American workplace shoting.

    A disgruntled former hospital worker armed with a rifle barged into the Bronx Lebanon Hospital Center Friday and opened fire, fatally shooting one doctor and wounding six other people before killing himself, New York City police officials said.

    The suspect, identified by sources as 45-year-old Henry Bello, was found dead on the 17th floor of the facility, where he had tried to set himself on fire before he shot himself, according to NYPD Commissioner James O'Neill.


    When police arrived, they discovered "several people had been shot on the 16th and 17th floor by a lone gunman with a long rifle," the commissioner said.

    Then they found the murdered female doctor and the dead gunman, who was wearing a white medical-type coat, on the 17th floor, O'Neill added.

    (NBC News↱)

    NYT tweets↱: "Henry Bello, the doctor who shot his ex-colleagues at a Bronx hospital, had been accused of sexual harassment".


    The New York Times. "Henry Bello, the doctor who shot his ex-colleagues at a Bronx hospital, had been accused of sexual harassment". Twitter. 30 June 2017. 30 June 2017.

    Winter, Tom, Jonathan Dienst, and Corey Siemaszko. "Bronx Hospital Shooting: Gunman Kills 1, Wounds 6, Turns Weapon on Self". NBC News. 30 June 2017. 30 June 2017.
  9. Bowser Right Here, Right Now Valued Senior Member

  10. Bells Staff Member

  11. sculptor Valued Senior Member


    gerund or present participle: desensitizing
    1. make less sensitive.
      • make (someone) less likely to feel shock or distress at scenes of cruelty, violence, or suffering by overexposure to such images.
        "people who view such movies become desensitized to violence"
  12. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Over the years one of the things I learned was that conservative censors fretting about musical and literary content, or sex and violence in television and movies, turned out to be right about desensitization and even conformist behavior, but this was only evident if we looked at the ideological heritage that worried so, and then look at their children and their children's children. That is to say, they were clearly right as long as they were speaking of themselves and their own.

    In truth I've become a bit resensitized in recent years. It's complex. Instead of focusing, say, on the fascinating destruction in certain horror movies and books, I perceive all sorts of other stuff about death, loss, and grief. Part of it is middle age, and accentuated by fatherhood for having something to focus on. To wit, sometime about a year ago a weird sequence of perfectly mundane events absolutely lodged homemade macaroni and cheese in my mind as a symbol of desperate deathbed regret, and I can even give you the literary and media framework—John D. Fitzgerald, Tim O'Brien, and some person or collective going by the name Takahiro—and, quite frankly, the change that occurred that night appears permanent; that is to say, something changed.

    And it's the stupidest little grotesquerie, but in its context I jut can't deal with it, and it has become something of a benchmark or milepost along my human transformation by which the frets of desensitization in my teenage years turned out to be largely insensate; what they were upset about was the perception that we were desensitized to their bullshit. At least, that's how it went in my corner of the U.S, but our desensitization discussion, as long as I've been aware of it, is subordinate to politics and personal aesthetics.

    But we do face a new desensitization potential in the idea of normalizing violence, and it does have to do with normalizing mass murder as part of our American reality. It will be interesting to watch how this goes, especially when one can is as specifically cynical as I can be.
  13. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

  14. birch Valued Senior Member

    NO, that is probably not why he went postal. he lost his job, his livelihood etc. he probably went postal from stress of struggling to make ends meet and the bitterness of that. society says it's our job to make a living and it's our fault if we don't but it ignores that it's based on competition and it's hard to get or keep good jobs. humans are seen as expendable and usable entities when it comes to economy, instead of jobs and the economy existing for the purpose of protecting the livelihoods of people. people are used for profit and when and if they are no longer needed, they don't matter. they can starve and die, they are not important.

    this is one of the reasons why, i think, the military industrial complex is a kind of better example/model of utilizing people and a workforce. it gives people an education, re-educates them and places them in jobs/professions. they even give you a personality test etc. the way the economy runs is messy, disorganized and haphazard. at any given time, there is no real logic or balance between available jobs and un-employment rate. how is the economy magically running, then? how are companies and businesses making it, then if there are so many unfilled positions? are they making up positions as they go along? is one doing the job of two or three?? BULLSHIT. so many people in positions they aren't suited for etc. it's no different than russian roulette. so many under-qualified just like over-qualified as well as a lot of shallow politics in determining employment and advancement. military style? less bullshit, but more reality and honest based qualifications. what you really earn, is what you really get. what you are really qualified to do, is what you are allowed and given an opportunity to do. it's not based on who owns what business, whether your boss or manager doesn't like you or get along doesn't determine your job security or a lot of the arbitrary bullshit and office politics, bias and prejudice i experienced in the civilian sector much more than the straight-shooter, facts on paper and real testing/qualifications as well as advancement of the military.

    the company doesn't need you anymore? adios. laid off? too bad. a market is over-saturated? too bad. underpaid and overworked? too bad, that's the state of economy.

    example: you know when it seemed as though everyone was getting into computers and that market became over-saturated and when it went bust and the jobs started going overseas and outsourced so those with masters degrees in computer science were working at 7-11? because of course, it's perfectly efficient to let people just buy into the hype that they can and are the best candidates for any type of job or profession, right? so you have herds of people unrealistically going into that one niche with all the fallout and unemployed later? unbalanced and illogical economy? because people are expendable?

    well, in the military, they wouldn't create more positions than they could fill or vice versa or tell 90 percent of their applicants that one financial sector is for you because it's the new, exciting field!! they are more realistic than that. what a novel idea of running a system? utilize some common sense? they test you and give you an array of options but suited best to your abilities, and to your personality even. besides that, you can also change your profession later if you want to re-educate yourself but they always have a position or job for you that isn't going to be one where you are may not have it or lose it next month!

    i have NEVER lost a job in the civilian sector because i wasn't qualified or because of my performance. it was always because i was laid off, the company was being outsourced or it had to do with politics or outright even prejudice like racism even!! there is also a lot of manipulation and unethical practices employers can get away with doing much easier in the civilian sector too.

    military? you can't really get away with any of that bullshit at all. you do your job like you are supposed to and perform well, you will be fine. that's all that matters.
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
  15. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    In 2017, so far, there have been about 11 deaths per day due to gun violence in the United States. And that's not counting the gun suicides.

    Most of the deaths are tragic and avoidable.

    But America doesn't have a gun problem, we are told.
  16. sculptor Valued Senior Member

  17. timojin Valued Senior Member

    To be involved in mass murder most common you have to be educated ( at least high school ) and be white .
  18. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

    When a dog bites a man that is not news, but when a man bites a dog that is news. I don't know why they even bother reporting mass shootings any more.
  19. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    I wouldn't begin to know where to begin.
  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Yeah. I hear they won't give you your degree in mass murder unless you can show a high school diploma, although some places accept a GED.
  21. timojin Valued Senior Member

    You Australian watch out our boys are after you to.

    Minneapolis Police Kill Australian Woman—After She Called for Their Help
  22. origin In a democracy you deserve the leaders you elect. Valued Senior Member

  23. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

    I do not want to keep it off topic but have to say it is so sad to be injured, arrested or killed by calling the police for help.


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