Scientists discover that atheists might not exist, and that’s not a joke

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Jan Ardena, Apr 8, 2018.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,096
    https://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-Gods-Over-Deities-World/dp/0816029091
    Looks like that in your mind 2499 gods no longer exist.
    Yes, really!
    You can certainly trust me not to kill you because you believe in the "wrong" God.
    However, the opposite is not true. Atheists have to be very scared of Theists, because we are"infidels" or "pagans" in your mind.

    Witness the story of Hypatia.
    For shame!
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,096
    Other than having to defend atheism to zealots like you, I personally give it little thought. IMO, it's a waste of time.

    At least I give you the courtesy of replying. I could easily put you on ignore, no skin off my back.

    OTOH, Unlike Muslim countries, the US Constitution specifically includes the "Establishment" clause in order to avoid religious wars (in the name of God) for power in the US.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,428
    I do pray to God, yes. Why do you ask?

    Are you happy that you don't have to invent an imaginary friend, because you are without God?

    It would be silly if it was.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Jan.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,096
    And what are your expectations by offering prayes., that they will be answered? And who will grant you special favors from your prayers?
    Is it silly to be happy? Oh that's right, religion demands feelings of guilt. Are you happy to be made constantly feel guilty? Would it not be silly if f you were made to feel guilty by some individual who is often guilty of the crimes you find abhorrent.

    History is filled with examples. There is one biblical advise which I respect; "beware the false prophet".
    Don't have to worry about that with atheists, we don't prophesise such as this utterly ridiculous Salvation Plan.
    And where do you find this safe haven if the earth's atmosphere does no longer support human life, because WE destroyed it to begin with regardless if you are theist or atheist. Or will Theists be miraculously saved from global disasters, walking proudly among the dead corpses of atheists or believers in other gods?

    Give it a break and Walk the Talk, rather than have the "vanity" to condemn others for being at fault, except you. You are bearing "false witness", even as you may not realize it.[/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
  8. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,428
    I'm more interested in how many gods
    have passed into oblivion along with greater scientific knowledge.

    Does that mean greater scientific knowledge has also passed into oblivion?

    Who says that I believe god's don't exist?
    Do you understand what you're talking about?

    But you could kill me for believing in God, right?

    Atheists are scared of theists?
    I haven't called anyone a pagan, or infidel, and I've been posting here since the turn of the century. Plus I've never heard another theist refer to atheists in that manner.

    Prove these Christian zealots were theist.

    The thing with Christians is that they beholding only to the Bible. They claim that Jesus is God, and the only way to know God is to accept Jesus Christ as your saviour. They do not recognise God outside of that. They don't accept anything that is not in the KJV of the Bible. Not even other books, or gospels that have been found since.
    It is quite possible that "Christian zealots" do not recognise who, and what God is. Can one be a theist, if one cannot recognise God?

    Jan.
     
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,096
    I just gave you the number.
    Some, yes, or have been replaced by more refinend theories.
    I, for one have no doubt that you believe God exists.
    I doubt you do.
    Not, unless you tried to force me into believing in your God. But that would be self-defense. But discussing the subject poses no threat to me, so rest easy, I am a man of peace.
    You bet they are, depending on where you live.
    I myself was attacked by theists, merely for mentioning that all things, including people are made up of atoms. That was in fourth grade. After school was out I had to run for my life from a bunch of six graders, who were intent on beating the crap out of me. We were living in a town that was 99 % Catholic at that time. If I recall there were only two atheist families living in that town and a few Protestants..
    Perhaps you haven't travelled enough. I have been half way around the world and seen many things.
    My wife was called an Anti-Christ for being a Democrat. This was here in Idaho. She is actually a non-practising Catholic, but definitely believes in God.
    That's just trolling now, because you close your ears to truth.
    NO, if you believe in a god you are a theist, by definition.

    But don't you see, you have just identified the problem. All religions (beliefs in a specific god) are exclusive of other religions and treat people who have a different perspectives with prejudice, as you have just demonstrated.

    But I am wasting far too much time on this God thingy. I have more important priorities.

    I sincerely hope you find comfort in your beliefs. I myself am quite content with my outlook on life and the proven concept of Darwinian evolution.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
  10. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,428
    I pray that I, and folk like yourself don't forget God. Do you think prayers have been answered?

    If it's no skin off your back, why mention it?

    No. Why would you ask that?

    Do they?

    No. I wouldn't be.
    Are you?

    I think you have to be in that situation, to respond effectively.

    A cherry-picker!
    Interesting.

    That's good to know.

    Sorry man, I've no idea what you're talking about. What does it have to do with the thread?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Jan.
     
  11. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,428
    You did.
    My bad.
    What has been replaced by science?

    Actually, I believe God, just is.
    As such, existence is merely an aspect of God's Being.

    But why would you think I don't believe god's exist?

    Phew! Don't worry, it would be silly of me to force a person without God, to accept something that he cannot currently access.

    Can't say I've come across any. If anything I would say it's the other way round. But even then, I can't say I've witnessed, or heard, that being the case.
    People just get on with their lives, where I'm from.

    That's okay.

    That was shite. But there are always kids who other kids. It could be for any reason.

    Have you read some of those you tube comments from atheists? Some of them are needlessly disgusting.

    That's a serious question. Unless you accept that a theist is such, merely because he/she asserts they are.

    If you believe, yes.
    But one can say one believes, but not actually believe.
    What is it to believe in God?

    Yes, I see there are problems with religions. I think you'll find a lot of theists, these days, who are anti-cirrent religious establishments.

    I too sincerely hope you find comfort in your belief that the concept of Darwinian evolution has been proven.

    Peace!
    Jan.
     
  12. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,725
    From Writr4U post 66
    Above relating to discussions with Jan.

    I consider Darwin’s concepts to be the best explanation of what I call the “facts of evolution.” I have seen no plausible Creationist explanation of those facts.

    I hesitate to call those explanations proofs in the sense of Euclid’s plane geometry proofs.​

    It seems a shame that the English language does not have some simple semantics more suitable than the above bolded phrase “proven concept.”
    Other than disciplines like mathematics & formal logic, there are no “proven concepts.”

    Furthermore, in both mathematics & logic, there are arguments/conclusions consistent with certain axioms which are called proofs. Such proofs are seldom (if ever) absolute proofs.
     
  13. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    30,937
    Jan Ardena:

    Not from me. I'm not arguing that there are no True atheists. Quite the opposite, in fact. I am, however, saying that not everybody who calls themselves an atheist is necessarily an atheist in practice. I have seen similar sentiments from you regarding theists, so I'm sure you can understand my position.

    How does the existence of theists impact at all on whether atheists have thought things through? What's the relevance of that?

    Because I don't think it's true, obviously.

    I'm quite happy to discuss the proposition. Nevertheless, it is good to bear in mind an author's potential biases, isn't it? Just as you make a point of mentioning Shermer's atheism. You will, of course, bear in mind both biases, and not ignore the theistic one just because you happen to favor that position. Right?

    It's a silly proposition, for reasons I have already explained.

    I'm taking it seriously enough to discuss it in this thread.

    The book I referred to is not primarily about religious beliefs, but about how we come to believe anything at all. Shermer is certainly not free of bias, but your saying that his bias affects his arguments is "pure speculation which if taken seriously, can impede critically thinking about the actual position", as you say. So, Shermer deserves as much of a reading as the author of the article you posted, does he not?

    Perhaps if you read the book you'll be in a better position to judge that. Right now, you're just guessing. And, as it happens, you're wrong.

    No. He believes that smart, rational people can be either theist or atheist.

    To be fair, he draws on research by other people to make his case; it's not just his opinion.

    Perhaps you ought to read the book and judge for yourself the extent to which any presuppositions have coloured the arguments he makes.

    I might add that, in the same book, Shermer argues for a rather radical approach to free market economics - something which I am in disagreement with him about. There, I think that his own preferences and presuppositions do colour the arguments he makes, and I think that this weakens the argument. But this is only a small part of the book and it is not representative of the entire content.

    Only they aren't just speculations. As I said, there's quite a lot of actual scientific research into how and why we form beliefs, which Shermer draws on to make his case. Like I said, it's worth reading the book. You should, if for no other reason than to know your enemy (if you want to look at it that way). As I said, it is not primarily concerned with religion, theist or atheism. Reading it might make you more aware of certain cognitive biases that you possess yourself.

    I agree. Being aware of this means that we can also devote time after the fact, as it were, to reconsider (or to rationally consider, perhaps for the first time) the ideas we have adopted. We can be careful not to be too quick to dismiss evidence that challenges our adopted views, but to try to consider it without bias.

    My point is quite the opposite - that we unconciously choose what to believe, most of the time. Belief comes first, then the rationalisation.

    That's what I said.

    Right, because theists just believe, and the question of God's actual existence doesn't arise until later.

    We've discussed this before. Prove it to whose satisfaction? There are many outward, objective signs that a parent loves his or her child. Of course, it's always possible that caring for, feeding, clothing, paying for, talking with, and spending time on the child indicates something other than love, but I'd say that, prima facie, lacking any disconfirming evidence, it looks like there's love there.

    We have strong instincts to nurture our children. But there's also a proven genetic component to theistic belief - perhaps as much as 40-50% of a person's inclination to believe in God can be shown to be genetic.

    In the case of nature vs. nurture effects, the methods of investigation are well established. Think about how you would go about it, if you don't already know.

    For a start, you need to deal with tangibles rather than intangibles. You need to look at what people do and say. If you want to find out about a trait that you don't share, you need to observe that trait in other people who do have it. You need to compare the physical differences (if any) between those who have it and those who do not. You also need to look into the environmental influences on those who have it vs those who don't.

    It's not all a matter of opinion. There is quantitative data to be had about this stuff.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018
  14. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    30,937
    I know it's true, because it's based on things you have written yourself.

    Moreover, if there was anything wrong in what I said, then instead of trying to deflect and dissemble, you could merely correct the record by posting your true opinions.
     
  15. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,428
    They aren't suggesting that people who identifies themselves as atheists don't exist. They are saying the atheist position (atheism) isn't based in reality. It is merely a mental construct. A fantasy.

    What is the basis of your atheism?
    Lack of evidence for God?
    What evidence would allow you to accept God?

    Do you really believe that all theists are delusional? Or the smart ones are smart, but believe stupid stuff?

    Have you really thought your position through?

    Why don't you believe?
    Lack of evidence?

    Well it seems that there is good reason to not dismiss God, entirely. Why? Because there are theists. People who believe in God.
    So why are there theists. Why have there always been theists? Why is it that every culture has some kind of religious basis, where God, God's, or the ancestors, are worshipped?
    Does it seem natural to you? Or is every culture, and individual who believe in a Deity of some sort, simply deluded.
    My point is, if you remove your presupposition, and seriously try and use your intelligence to comprehend what God is, and how you could be intrinsically connected, you may arrive at a different conclusion.

    This article is not a religious one. It is a scientific (atheists say science is the best way to get knowledge).

    Are you going to go away from the science, to keep your position in tact.?

    Isn't that just straight-up other box, irrational?

    Do you think it is possible that the atheist position, however real it may seem, is nothing more than reasons to not accept God?

    If yes, why don't you accept this article, and begin to comprehend what's really going on?

    Jan.
     
  16. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,428
    I get it. It's fun to have debates, and discussions about whether or not God exists. But really, does it matter if you can cite evidence either way? Does it mean that God doesn't exist, or that you are justified in convincing yourself there is no evidence for God? Is a lack of what you deem to be evidence, explanation, or argument, all it takes to maintain your position? I don't think so. I think your claim to atheism is more deep root than that. I don't think you will, in your current state of mind, accept God, period. Furthermore, I think reason is very simple. You don't want to accept God. So you latch on to this movement, with like minded people (atheism) for strength and comfort.

    Jan.
     
  17. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,203
    I'd be the first to say that I couldn't care less whether there's a god or not.

    Evidence is not what somebody deems it to be. You can have your own interpretation but you can't have your own evidence.

    I don't claim to be an atheist.

    You'd be wrong. I'm quite willing to accept the existence of god(s) but I have the same standard as most people have for believing in the existence of unicorns, etc. Are you willing to lower your standards for the comfort of believing in a sky-daddy?
     
  18. Gawdzilla Sama Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,808
    Bob, you're not following the script they wrote for you. Bad Bob!
     
  19. Capracus Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    669
    Broadly speaking, cosmology is concerned with any notion of how the universe came to be and how it’s ordered. You don’t think that an individual’s perception of the nature of existence would have a bearing on a belief, or lack of belief in a god?
     
  20. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    25,636
    No they aren't.
    They are saying that everyone has metaphysical beliefs or insights or perceptions of the kinds that theists often associate with one or more of their deities.
    Atheists would not make that association, is all.
     
  21. RainbowSingularity Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    365
    you miss the point entirly, however.. the point you miss is quite a point.

    millitant religions attempts to destroy secular family values by using its existance as a moral genocide is QUITE the point...
     
  22. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,725
    My post 43
    Jan’s Post 72 Misquotes me as follows
    I do not know the origin of the last two statements, which were not made by me.

    I am guessing that Jan mistaken included some remarks of her own with my remarks.
     
  23. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,428
    You asked: How can they claim to know what I believe?

    I replied with two quotes, from the article, as a response to that question.

    My bad. I should have made it clear.

    I'm not female.

    Jan.
     

Share This Page