Scientific Mysticism

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by TruthSeeker, Apr 30, 2002.

  1. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,943
    Nelson, Tyler:

    16,241,800 human beings at the least from only the wars I've mentioned.

    Nelson, seems you can't respond to Tyler. Pity that.

    But his point remains, weapons are bought and used by thiests.
     
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  3. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,888
    Are you here to try and prove your points or just laugh at other people who believe in truth?

    Here, let me give you a slight example....


    http://www.lepg.org/wars.htm
    - This site shows 7 wars fought between only one areas worth of religious people in just one century, due to religion.

    http://home.swipnet.se/islam/articles/jehad.htm
    - This one gives a brief description of Jihad's with a few examples of them

    http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0841497.html
    - More religious wars in one area from just one century

    http://www.thecaveonline.com/APEH/thirtyyearswar.html
    - A couple more incidents

    http://www.beyond.fr/history/religion.html
    - Still more

    http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/h19-eu.html
    - It goes on.....

    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/1998/dom/980511/world_.the_religious_war2.html
    - Ditto




    Roosevelt a theist? Yes. Hitler? Yes. How about the Presidents who ruled over Vietnam or Iraq?



    Like I said, the mark of a true moron.......
     
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  5. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    Christ Tyler, thanks a whole fucking lot. More work for me.

    16,241,800 human beings at the least from only the wars I've mentioned. I'm not going to add Tyler's on, but I suspect that with his, 20,000,000 is a good approximation.

    P.S: The only athiest (very nominally, he was more agnostic than athiest, but....) president was Abraham Lincoln. He 'freed the slaves' and willingly gave his life for his country. He was a great man.

    Jefferson, Madision, Paine, Adams, Franklin and Washington were all Deists.
     
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  7. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,888
    Hehe, yup!

    And no,m its more than 20,000,000

    The Catholic/Protestant thing alone is a ton.
     
  8. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,162
    I won't post everything again...
    Go back to that other thread where I clearly show that atheist wars killed much more...

    Besides that, there are NO theist wars, only ignorant wars...

    Just an example...
    If the Bible says:
    "Love one another"
    why the heck Christians would create wars if the Bible says that? Unless they were REALLY ignorant...:bugeye: :bugeye:

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    Theists don't kill.
    Weapons created by sick scientists full of rationalism and hypocrisy kills.
    Nuclear bombs kills.
    Hiroshima and Nagazaqui disapeared from the map. How many people were there all alone?
    How many people killed in the First World War?
    And the Second World War?

    How much ignorance do I still have to tolerate in this world??:bugeye:

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    :bugeye:

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  9. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    10,943
    *Sulks*

    Fine, I'll stay in and compile this list. (Xev, it's raining out, you weren't going anywhere!)

    So, it's got to be more than 20,000. Let's review our wars so far:

    9/11: ~3900 people (Americans and Afghans killed by accident)

    Witch hunts: 600,000 to as high as 9,000,000 - I'm using a middle figure of 1 million.

    Spanish Inquisition: 3,000 conservative

    Thirty Years War - 6 million at the lowest

    Ulster Rebellion of 1641 - ~100,000 - conservative

    St.Bartholomew's day massacre: ~4000, conservative

    Crusades: ~9 million people

    Persecution of Pagans: 2 million.

    Persecution of Jews by Romans: ~100,000

    Spontaneous Christian Pogrom in 1374: ~10,000

    Which adds up to: 18,220,900 human beings

    So, let's add some more:

    French Wars of Religion: 100,000 Protestants

    Currrent Sudenese Civil War: 1 million

    Religious tribal wars in Lebanon: 150,000

    Battle of Antwerp, 1576: Civilian death toll: 8,000

    People killed by India's Thugs: ~1 Million

    Buddhist Sinhalese vs. Hindu Tamils: 20,000

    Sikhs vs. Punjabs, 1992: 3,800

    Arian Schism: 1,000,000

    Holy Wars against Netherlands, Albigenses, Waldenses, and Huguenots: 1,000,000

    Various people slaughtered by Isrealites: ~976,000 if you accept Biblical sources

    Japanese Christians killed in Shimnaburu rebellion: 36,895

    Timurlane slaughters 100,000 Hindu prisoners.

    Selim the Grim massacres 40,000 Anatolian Shi'ites

    Christians persecuted by Roman Pagans: 2,000

    Traditional feminists would claim that suttee is a instrument of male domination or somthing....I think that Indian suttee has religious motivations, so I am adding it:

    62,400 in one century.

    Well, I'm adding 'em up again. Anyone know of more religious wars?

    Well, I have 5,499,095 people killed. 5,499,095 + 18,220,900 = 23,719,995 people killed for religious reasons in the past 2000 years. At least.

    Exceedingly good source: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm

    P.S:
    Where does the Bible say that? It also says to 'smite the Amalkalites' and to 'slay' Jesus' enemies.

    Nelson, that is an incredibly stupid statement, haven't you been following current events?

    Guns don't kill. People kill.

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    Humans kill.

    Hitler was a Christian.....

    All of it. And you have an ego the size of Manhatten.

    PPS:

    GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD! There haven't been any athiest wars!

    EDIT AGAIN: Damn math errors.

    Edit again: Damn it all, another math error. I'm switching to scientific notation..

    Adding on the Aztec human sacrifices:

    http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.CHAP3.HTM

    So, I am going with 136,000 - a figure that is probably inflated, but considering the age of the Aztec empire......

    Which brings us to 23,855,995
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2002
  10. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,888
    How can a human being be as dumb as you are?

    "Go back to that other thread where I clearly show that atheist wars killed much more..."

    You never showed that. In fact, you haven't provided ONE stat to back you up. I hope and pray that one day you get arrested for murder. Then when the judge looks at you and says what proof you have of your innocence, you'll look at him and say; 'I'm a Christian! I don't murder!' and expect to get off.



    "Besides that, there are NO theist wars, only ignorant wars..."

    So what you're saying is that a true theist would not start a war? But that atheists do? So all those millions of dead at the hands of religion are all just not true theists?

    Problem number one with your stupidity is that, even if they didn't follow the religion like you interput it, they are NOT atheists. An atheist, by definition, does not believe in God or does not believe God is necessary or logical. It is quite obvious all these people (including Hitler), believed God existed. Therefore, they are theists.

    Second problem. You are suggesting that if a 'true' Christian ran the world, there would be no wars, correct? Well, fine, I don't give a flying fuck. If a peaceful atheist ran the world there would be no wars. If I ran the world there would be no wars. What the hell does this matter?




    Oh yeah, here ya go....

    Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
    - Exodus 35:2

    And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
    - Exodus 21:17

    Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
    - Genesis 19:24

    Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
    - Hosea 13:16

    If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;...Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:...But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
    - Genesis 13:6-13:9

    If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:...And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
    - Deuteronomy 21:18-21:21

    Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin.
    And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death
    - Leviticus 24:16



    ........Just a couple.
     
  11. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,162
    Xev,

    Second World War: 20.000.000
    First World War: 8.500.000

    Total: 28.500.000 people
    Sources: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/war-list.htm
    http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Second

    Er... isn't that already more than all those that you cited...?:bugeye:

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    You cited: 23,719,995 people

    *sights...

    Those wars you cited weren't caused by religious people... they were caused by ignorant people...

    Here it is one of the places where this is said...
    And it also says about you (atheists...)

    1 John 2:7-11 :
    "7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

    8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

    9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

    10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

    11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes."


    About me:

    1 John 3:1-3
    "1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

    2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."


    More about Love:

    Ephesians 5: 1-16: :
    "1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
    2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

    3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
    4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

    5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

    6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

    7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

    8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
    9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

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    10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

    12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

    13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

    14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

    15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, 16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil."


    1 Corinthians 13 :
    "1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

    2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

    3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

    4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
    5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
    6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

    8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

    9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

    10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

    11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

    12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

    13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

    I could go on and on...

    Yes...:bugeye: It's not stupid, it's the pure Truth...!

    Atheists, to be more precise...

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    Xev, that is an incredibly stupid statement...

    Mine? I though it was thine...

    PPS:
    GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD! There haven't been any theists wars! :bugeye:

    Some Atheists Wars:
    War on Terrorism, First and Second World Wars, China vc Tibet, Vietnam, etc... :bugeye:

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    Love,
    Nelson
     
  12. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    33,100
    Wasn't this thread about scientific mysticism? Why all the religion? This is the Philosophy forum, remember?
     
  13. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,943
    Nelson:
    Fine then! No real scientist would develop weapons, therefore, scientists have never developed weapons.

    Umm, Nelson, I don't think you know what an athiest is....

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    *Wanders off to kill people*

    Nelson, I don't wanna kill people but I am an athiest. Can I just hit them on the head with a mackrel?

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    Hitler was a Christian.

    “My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. "

    http://www.freethought-web.org/ctrl/quotes_hitler.html

    You mean the defensive war of a nation led by a Christian president against the agression of Usama Bin Ladin and other Muslims?

    You mean the wars fought primarily by Christians over territory?

    You mean the war of a Communist state against a Tibetan Buddhist state?

    What athiests? Where?
     
  14. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,162
    Xev,

    :bugeye:...

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    This confronts to Jesus statement:

    "Love your enemies."
    This already proves he was not Christian, he was just justifying in the wrong way. The same of Osama bin Laden, as Muslim...

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    No. I meant the war fought to get oil in the Middle East..:bugeye:

    WHAT!?!? What your government have been putting inside your head????:bugeye:

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    Yes...:bugeye:
    Communists are atheists, Tibetans are Buddhists... simply a war of atheists against religion...:bugeye:

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    Everywhere...!!:bugeye:

    Love,
    Nelson
     
  15. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,888
    "This confronts to Jesus statement:

    "Love your enemies."
    This already proves he was not Christian, he was just justifying in the wrong way. The same of Osama bin Laden, as Muslim..."

    What about if they followed all those horribly violent and disgusting quotes from the Bible that Xev and I post?



    "No. I meant the war fought to get oil in the Middle East.."

    America is fighting to get Oil out of Afghanistan? What have you been snorting?



    "WHAT!?!? What your government have been putting inside your head????"

    The leaders of hte nations in WWI were religious. Hitler and Roosevelt (who dropped the a bombs) ewre theists.

    Whether you want to fucking think it or not, these people were all theists. They may not see religion as the exact same as you, but that doesn't mean anything. 'Theist' does not mean 'someone who agrees with Nelson on religion'. If they were all theists, then clearly they were not atheist launched wars.


    "Yes...
    Communists are atheists, Tibetans are Buddhists... simply a war of atheists against religion.."

    Communists are agnostic really. The idea of God is useless to them. Yes atheists against theists. So there's one example of many that were wars with theists.
     
  16. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,162
    Tyler,

    Perhaps they are ignorant enough to ignore the core of the Bible and follow a couple of statements that should not be taken by their literal meaning... They would be following about 5% of the Bible, or Qu'ran...:bugeye:

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    Go to my thread "UFOs in WTC!!" and you will see that Northwind agrees with me...:bugeye:

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    Are you saying that Roosevelt dropped the bombs in Hiroshima and Nagazaqui because he hated the Japanese people, as they were not from his religion...:bugeye:

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    Love,
    Nelson
     
  17. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,943
    Okay, so, if no true Christian would attack, no true scientist would build weapons of mass destruction.

    So, what, America was not attacked on 9.11?

    WW1 was sparked by the assasination of Franz Ferdinand. At the time, europe was entangled by a series of alliences and time tables that made pulling back from the brink of war rather difficult.

    WW2 was sparked by Hitler's invasion of Poland.

    Communists are not necessarily athiests. The first Christians were commies.
     
  18. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,162
    The first Christians weren't communists...
     
  19. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,943
    Ah, Nelson dear, they shared thier property.

    Acts 4:33
    And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
    4:34
    Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
    4:35
    And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
    4:36
    And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
    4:37
    Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
    5:1
    But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
    5:2
    And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
    5:3
    But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
    5:4
    Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
    5:5
    And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
    5:6
    And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
    5:7
    And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
    5:8
    And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
    5:9
    Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
    5:10
    Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

    See:

    http://www.osa.ceu.hu/galeria/sites/com2000/concept/concept.html

    http://rwor.org/a/v19/910-19/912/barel2.htm
     
  20. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,888
    "Perhaps they are ignorant enough to ignore the core of the Bible and follow a couple of statements that should not be taken by their literal meaning... They would be following about 5% of the Bible, or Qu'ran..."



    "Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
    - Exodus 35:2

    And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
    - Exodus 21:17

    Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
    - Genesis 19:24

    Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
    - Hosea 13:16

    If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;...Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:...But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
    - Genesis 13:6-13:9

    If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:...And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
    - Deuteronomy 21:18-21:21

    Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin.
    And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death
    - Leviticus 24:16"

    How can you know which ones to take literally and which not? Some of these seem like pretty straight forward orders.



    "Go to my thread "UFOs in WTC!!" and you will see that Northwind agrees with me..."

    And Xev agrees with me, what hte hell is your point? Because some other person on sciforums agrees with you does not prove anything.




    "Are you saying that Roosevelt dropped the bombs in Hiroshima and Nagazaqui because he hated the Japanese people, as they were not from his religion..."

    Nope, just pointing out that all major wars were caused by or largely involved theists. Which was the topic of our debate, in case you forgot.
     
  21. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,162
    Xev,

    Yes... but that's only one thing in common... Communism is not a religion...
    Actually neither Christianism... Christianism is a relationship...

    Tyler,

    I was just saying that I'm not the only one that see what's really happen on that case...:bugeye:

    Love,
    Nelson
     
  22. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,888
    So then what are you claiming, that a peaceful theist hasn't started wars? Does anyone else think that's the stupidest comment ever? I could just as easily say that a peaceful atheist has never caused a war.

    And I pose my original question again; can you name one theist-run nation which never started or largely participated in a war?
     
  23. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,162
    Tyler,

    Peaceful...?
    Theist...?
    Well... I'm saying that if someone starts a war because thinks that his or her religion is the right, but ignore the teachings of his or her religion is or ignorant or... ignorant...:bugeye:

    Besides that, a theist can start a war that has nothing to do with religion. That is just political...:bugeye:

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    Theists don't run nations for a loooooooooong time...:bugeye:

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    Love,
    Nelson
     

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