Scientific Mysticism

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by TruthSeeker, Apr 30, 2002.

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  1. TruthSeeker

    TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    More on Random Universe

    "Given infinite time, nature would by chance alone eventually hit on the order we see around us."

    Denis Diderot and David Humew


    Modern version:
    "Given infinite time. a monkey with a type writter would eventually type the works of Shakespeare."

    Unknown

    With the magic of technology, here's the monkey with the typewritter!!!

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    Here are some good links about the supidity of a Random Universe...

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    http://mathforum.org/dr.math/problems/bridge8.5.98.html
    http://www.nutters.org/monkeys.html
    http://bruce.cs.cf.ac.uk/bruce/Artificial_Intelligence/Monkey_Typing_at_Random.html
    http://www.tetrica.com/science/monkeys.html


    What's random in science?

    From "God: the Evidence" by Patrick Glynn:
    "
    • Gravity is roughly 1039 times weaker than electro-magnetism. If gravity had been only 1033 times weaker than electromagnetism, "stars would be a billion less massive and would burn a million times faster."1
    • The nuclear weak force is 1028 times the strength of gravity. Had the weak force been slightly weaker, all the hydrogen in the universe would have been turned to helium (making water impossible, for example). 2
    • A strong nuclear syrng force (by as little as 2 percent) would have prevented the formation of protons-yielding a universe without atoms. Decreasing it by 5 percent would have given us a universe without stars.
    • If the difference in mass between a proton and a neutron were not exactly as it is-roughly twice the mass of an electron- then all neutrons would have become protons or vice versa. Say goodbye to chemistry as we know it- and life.3
    • The very nature of water-so vital to life- is something of a mistery (a point noticed by one of the forerunners of anthropic reasoning in the nineteenth century, Harvard biologist Lawrene Henderson). Unique among the molecules, water is lighter in its solid than liquid form: Ice floats. If it did not, the oceans would now be covered with solid ice. This property in turn is traceable to unique properties of the hydrogen atom. 4
    • The synthesis of carbon-the vital core of all organic molecules-on a significant scale involves what scientists view as "astonishing" coincidence in the ratio of the strong force to electromagnetism.5 This ratio makes it possible for varbon-12 to reach an excited state of exactly 7.65 MeV at the temperature typical of the center of stars, which creates a resonance involving helium-4, beryllium-8, and carbon-12- allowing the necessary bindingto take place during a tiny window of opportunity 10-17 seconds long.
    "

    Notes:
    1. Leslie, p. 5.
    2. Leslie, p. 34.
    3. Leslie, p. 4.
    4. Leslie, pp. 39-40
    5. Barrow and Tipler, pp 143-144, 524-541. Cf. Denys Wilkinson, Our Universes (New York: Columbia University Press, 1991), pp. 171-172.
    6. Wilkinson, pp. 181-183; see also John Gribbin and Martin Rees, Cosmic Coincidences (New York: Bantam, 1989), pp. 243-247.

    For all the list of "coincidences", see John Leslie's book
    Universes.

    Love,
    Nelson
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2002
    TruthSeeker, May 11, 2002
    #101

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  3. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Truthseeker,

    <i>Many scientists nowdays doubt about the inflationary theory. There are many puzzles that may prove it wrong... </i>

    Yes. That's how science works. The inflationary theory is one more idea which may turn out to be wrong. Nothing is fixed in stone in science. However, having said that, the inflationary theory is the theory which best explains the observations at the present time.

    Also, bear in mind that inflation is but one portion of the big bang theory. No scientist doubts the broad features of the big bang theory. There is only real questioning about the details.

    <i>I'm talking about genetic evolution... breeding and randomly exchanging genes... until you get it... </i>

    Are you claiming that random exchange of genes does not happen, then? I think you'll find it does.

    <i>No. They continue developing more and more theories to try to explain a random universe...</i>

    How many times do I need to say it? <b>No</b> theory can explain a random universe. If it's random, there's nothing ordered which can be explained. Fortunately, our universe is not random. It has laws which we can discover.

    <i>and we still don't have any evidence of parallel universes...</i>

    Yes, that's true. So what? No scientist is claiming that parallel universes <b>must</b> exist.

    I said: Nelson, before you start criticising scientists and science and the scientific method, don't you think it would be a good idea to learn something about them?

    You replied: <i>I guess this should be adressed to you...</i>

    Nelson, I guess your arrogance is probably due to your immaturity. You would learn more quickly if you didn't start by assuming that you already know everything worth knowing. You're putting up barriers for yourself.
     
    James R, May 11, 2002
    #102

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  5. TruthSeeker

    TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    James R,

    That's NOT what the majority of scientists says...
    Have you actually read my last post...? :bugeye:

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    I don't even need to reply that...

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    Xev,

    I don't know how to explain that as well as a scientist...
    But it's something wrong about a alternative explanation for redshift and the inflationary theory in relation to the radiation background. The alternative explanation is that the universe is NOT expanding and that the redshift is a sign of the collision between our universe and a parallel one...

    It is evident...
    Because scientists are usually atheists...

    They are intimatly liked though...

    Love,
    Nelson
     
    TruthSeeker, May 11, 2002
    #103

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  7. Xev

    Xev Registered Senior Member

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    Nelson:

    "But it's something wrong about a alternative explanation for redshift and the inflationary theory in relation to the radiation background. The alternative explanation is that the universe is NOT expanding and that the redshift is a sign of the collision between our universe and a parallel one..."

    Hmmm. Even if so, so what? That's how science works.

    "It is evident...
    Because scientists are usually atheists..."

    Science itself (the scientific method) isn't affected by scientists.

    In any case, you have a point -

    Science is about the search for truth. Religion, being often false, is often in conflict with us. When religion learns to stay out of our way, any dispute will end.

    "They are intimatly liked though..."

    Yes they are. Random mutations are the petrol in the car of evolution...
     
    Xev, May 11, 2002
    #104
  8. TruthSeeker

    TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Xev,

    As long as you don't base a whole bunch of new theories in unproved hypothesis... otherwise it's transformed in scientific mysitcism...

    It actually happens the other way around...

    Love,
    Nelson
     
    TruthSeeker, May 11, 2002
    #105
  9. Xev

    Xev Registered Senior Member

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    Nelson:

    Ummmm, no. As long as theories are proven, or a scientist admits that they aren't, it is not mysticism at all.

    How's that?

    Religion will eventually learn to stay out of our way.

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    Xev, May 11, 2002
    #106
  10. TruthSeeker

    TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Xev,

    Did you understood what I said...?:bugeye:

    Science will eventually learn to stay out of the way of Religion...

    As my pastor says, if we (church) were in the governement, the hospitals wouldn't be closing (this is happening in BC...). Scientists and politicians are still in our way... and look what they do...

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    Love,
    Nelson
     
    TruthSeeker, May 11, 2002
    #107
  11. Xev

    Xev Registered Senior Member

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    Ummm hmm. Perhaps you meant somthing different?

    Naw. Look at the way scientific knowledge is expanding, while religious 'knowledge' is static. Look at the number of scientists - increases every year.

    Actually, if you were in the government, you'd be burning witches, heretics and infidels.

    Luckily, Canada and the U.S.A have fairly strong separation of church and state.
     
    Xev, May 11, 2002
    #108
  12. Adam

    Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    I'm watching a cheap crappy movie right now which is full of nekkid women. If a religious organisation ran this particular state, I might not be able to watch such films any more. I'd have to move to Amsterdam if that happened...

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    Adam, May 11, 2002
    #109
  13. Xev

    Xev Registered Senior Member

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    *Waves a broadsword and exhorts her troops*

    We must go there and tell the fundies, that they may take our lives, they may take our Tiffany Minx flicks, but they may never take

    OUR FREEEEEEEEEEEEDOMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!
     
    Xev, May 11, 2002
    #110
  14. TruthSeeker

    TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Xev,

    Ok... forget it...:bugeye:

    Religious wisdom is forever...
    We already got there... we are just waiting for you...

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    No, we wouldn't. We would be running everything well and we wouldn't be causing any war...

    Atheists in other hand...

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    ...
    Love,
    Nelson
     
    TruthSeeker, May 11, 2002
    #111
  15. Adam

    Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    Groovy pictures.
     
    Adam, May 11, 2002
    #112
  16. Xev

    Xev Registered Senior Member

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    *Launches into a rendition of 'Scots hae wie wi Wallace bred'*

    Nelson, google 'Spanish inquisition', 'Thirty years war', 'witch hunts europe eastern' and 'Giordano Bruno'. For starters.

    Purty emoticons. I can only offer pictures of purty woooman.
    My militant athiest persona. (Ahem - as opposed to my other personalities

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    )

    http://www.strangersinparadise.com/images/issues/volume03issue16b.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2002
    Xev, May 11, 2002
    #113
  17. TruthSeeker

    TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Xev,

    I already talked about that about... ehhh... more than 5 times with you...

    How many people "holy" wars(that weren't even caused by religious people...

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    ) killed?

    How many people were killed by weapons invented by scientists?

    ... *sights...

    Love,
    Nelson
     
    TruthSeeker, May 11, 2002
    #114
  18. Adam

    Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    TS,

    I believe you may be trying to use the word "sighs", which is similar to "sights" but has different meaning.
     
    Adam, May 11, 2002
    #115
  19. TruthSeeker

    TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    TruthSeeker, May 11, 2002
    #116
  20. Xev

    Xev Registered Senior Member

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    I'd place it in the range of millions....

    Edit for figures:

    9/11: ~3900 people (Americans and Afghans killed by accident)

    Witch hunts: 600,000 to as high as 9,000,000 - I'm using a middle figure of 1 million.

    Spanish Inquisition: 3,000 conservative

    Thirty Years War - 6 million at the lowest

    Ulster Rebellion of 1641 - ~100,000 - conservative

    St.Bartholomew's day massacre: ~4000, conservative

    Crusades: ~9 million people

    Persecution of Pagans: Unknown, possibly 50,000 - 2 million. I'm going with 20,000 to be extremely conservative.

    Persecution of Jews by Romans: ~100,000

    Spontaneous Christian Pogrom in 1374: ~10,000

    All told: 16,241,800 human beings at the least. There are other wars I've left out - the current Middle East conflict, because that is not wholly religious, and the wars of early Islam, and several persecutions of Jews.....

    None. Well, maybe one person who was hit on the head when a gun fell off a shelf....
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2002
    Xev, May 11, 2002
    #117
  21. Tyler

    Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    Actually Nelson, we've gone over this. Holy wars have caused much more death. And your weapons killing people that you blame on atheism? Like we've argued before, no one kills in the name of atheism. Hitler was a Christian remember (and dont bullshit me about saying all these people weren't 'real christians' because it doesnt matter. Then I'll just say the inventors of the atom bomb and such weren't 'real scientists'. - whether they met your definition of a christian or not, they were still theists).

    Can you name me one completely peaceful nation run based on religious Jews/Moslems/Christians/Catholics? Over history.
     
    Tyler, May 11, 2002
    #118
  22. Tyler

    Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    And oh yeah, it was still theists who ordered the building of and use of the scientific weapons.
     
    Tyler, May 11, 2002
    #119
  23. TruthSeeker

    TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

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    ...
    HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

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    TruthSeeker, May 11, 2002
    #120
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