For one so interested in truth, you're quick to push aside the notion of Christ without much proof to support your "myth" theory. As far as i've found, there exsists non-Biblical records of Jesus Christ the man, who claimed to be God incarnate. His followers believed to the point of death for Him, and I can't imagine that many people dying for a myth. How do you refute that?
To liquidsilver, this is one example. Matthew Chapter 13, verse 10 to 15: Then the disciples came and said to him, "why do you speak to them in parables?" And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to him who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. With them indeed is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which says: 'You shall indeed hear but never understand, and you shall indeed see but never perceive. For this people's heart has grown dull, and their ears are heavy of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should perceive with their eye's and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn for me to heal them.' If you need help interpereting to Bible I'll try to help (I'm no a theologian). To Q25, Yes religion can take away reason and logic if not taught properly. I hate how many people have and are useing religion for personal gain or for the control of the masses. This is not religion in it's proper sence, it is a con. Yes religion is also the apparent cause for many wars etc. Basically the rule of the game is you can't mix any black with your white paint, it will go grey. History has proved to us over and over again that power corrupts even the best of us. Any body of people run's the risk of becomming greedy for power, which in turn leads to evil. I understand very well the corruption that goes on even in my own church. This does not mean God is corrupt. The plan of God is not what many people seem to believe. For starter the split second after an individual believe's in God death is irrelivent ( in it's usual sence). The misuse of this belief is also the cause behind somuch terrorist activity but and I respect all who see the flaw's in many religious doctrins. The point of the matter is understanding the correct use as well. In my case the afterlife is not neccissarily a good thing. Why? because I aslo believe in Hell. What do I do if I end up a rotten egg? too bad I had my chance. It doesn't mean I have the right to say Christ is wrong and or God doesn't exist. It is generaly true that a criminal ends up in prison, so it call at the very least be generaly true that people like me that don't love God all that much will go to Hell. People that read the Bible very rarely can do what the Bible say's. Many so called clever people make a new version of the Bible cutting out all the nasty bit's, watering it down to a pleasant social club. To be true to a religion you must also stick to the original teaching's. It is better for you to make your own religion than to change an existing religion to your standard's. Yes, Christian church's have chopped and changed many aspect of what was done in the past. Depending on what the changes are they may or may not have the right to call themselves Christian. Generally all churches can't go without the nice title of been a Christian. To bad if I don't even do half of what Christ teaches. So basically what I'm trying to say please don't be quick to blame the religion itelf. The people running the show are usually the one's at fault. Jesus warned us of the possiblity in the example of Judas. Not all people want to face up to the responsibites God gives us. It is of no use to anyone to try to cancel out the possiblity of God, just because you are or others can't see, or touch Him. This dosen't even help science. Just because we couldn't see what deep sea ceatures look like doesn't mean they don't exist. I would say that nature has managed on it's own to produce something even better than fire. That is light producing chemicals. Many deep sea creature are fitted with these light's and I find that amazing. It's not uncommon for nature to have state of the art technology thousand's and or possibly millons of years before us. I don't expect anyone to believe in any particular God, but I would at least expect people to appreciate that the universe is not just a chemical reaction. I feel very sad that you have such strong feeling against God, it doesn't help you to deny that something might be out there. Science is based on finding out what is out there. Why cancel God out to what gain? Say what you like about bad religion, but please keep an open mind. Brainwashing is unfortunately what science has done aswell, forcing us to believe in theory's that down the track prove false. A bit of puzzel dosn't make it the whole, let's wait till we get the whole picture. I'm no brain surgeon so you don't need to take what I say as law. I'm still learning and hope together with people and friend's like yourself we can grow in Knowledge, no need for heated debate's.
harry, I appreciate the reference, however i offer this explanation to what's happening in these verses. in v. 11 Jesus talks about the secrets of the kingdom of heaven being revealed. this is not general knowledge, these are aspects of God's kingdom that are revealed only to those that have the faith to understand them. Jesus' desciples understood them, and to them the secrets were revealed so that they could go and explain and write them for others to understand. v. 12 is saying that, whatever knowledge has been revealed to a person, they must use that knowledge, apply it to their lives and teach it to others. then, more knowledge will be revealed. if they don't, the knowledge goes to waste and it will be taken from them. v. 13 - Jesus is saying that He speaks in parables because the people don't have the faith to understand what He's saying to them. His ideas were so foreign to the people of His day. If they made sense logically, He wouldn't have had to speak in parables. But if God made sense logically, then man would be able to "create" the idea of God in his mind. The reason these people in v. 13-14 hear but never understand is their own choice. this is not God making it impossible for them to understand. the more times truth is rejected, the more calloused the heart becomes to it, and the heart becomes like the rocky soil or the path that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 13:4-5. I hope this at least gives you another perspective on this passage. I appreciate your comments.
To Quicksilver, 2 Thessalonians, Chapter 2 verse 9 to 12. This is the verse I was trying to find the first time. The coming of the lawless one by activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. This passage indicate's that God can lead people into believing what is false because of their choice in lifestyle. So basicaly anyone Godless no matter how clever they are may not be given the ability to decifer what is true. This clearly indicates that in the mind frame of the Christian Godless people can not be trusted as a source of truth. Regardless if it's based on science or not, it's all a question of ones relationship with God. I'm all for scientific reseach for all the right reason's and hope that one day we understand the mystery's of the Universe. For those that wish to believe in a Godless world that's fine, but do you feel there is a valid reason why God can exist side by side with scientific research. The only reason that is valid is religion stops progress in the development of contoversial science, cloning etc. I cant answer this becuase I need to find out what God conciders the better of the two evil's. That is letting people die a natural death or killing to find a cure. What is your opinion? Concerning the interptetion you gave for the previous passage, I'm glad you could see that it wasn't all that clear cut, but it still indicates that God choose's the right people to serve Him. This mean's it doesn't matter how clever you are at the end of the day you still need to Love God and in turn be taught by Him. Regard's, Harry.
Hey man, the cryogenicists are coming. "Some day a great scientist will cure all diseases, and everyone who is chilled with the spirit will be resurected on that day." Starting at 9000 credits Sound's good - doesnt it? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
To liquidsilver, I just realised I name you wrongly, sorry. If you want to share idea's privately please do. Same goes for you Mario, I seem to have put a stop to your thread sorry. numberscripts@hotmail.com
Quoting the Bible is a poor way to support or 'prove' anything in a comparative religion/logic discussion. Either the Bible is infallable - or its subjective (meaning knowing *which* interpretation is ''correct'' is completely impossible). So, if its infallable - here is a copy of the free pocket Bible guide from Cryptoclast.org. I've looked up every bit in the Bible . . . quite true. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Who You Should Kill --Unruly or rebellious child. Deut 21:20-21 --Those who curse or hit their parents. Lev 20:9, Ex 21:15 --Worshipers of other gods. Deut 13:6-11 --psychics, witches. Lev 20:27, Deut 13:6-11,Ex 22:18. --Those who do not believe in Jesus (parable). Luke 19:27. --Those who work on the Sabbath. Ex 35:2 (Moses kills a gentile for this. Num 15:32-36.) --Those who are accused by at least two people of wickedness. Deut 17:6. --The children and babies of enemies. Num 31:17, Deut 20:13, Psalm 137:9, Lev 26:29. --Adulterers. Lev 20:10. --Homosexuals. Lev 20:13. --A woman who is not a virgin when married. Deut 22:13-21. --Those who are careless with murderous livestock. Exodus 21:29. Who You Should Hate --Those who eat crab or shrimp. Lev 11:10. --Those who sacrifice an animal to God that has a blemish. Deut 17:1. --Those who remarry the same person after divorce. Deut 24:4. --Homosexuals. Lev 18:22. --Those who are proud. Prov 16:5. --A woman who wears pants. Deut 22:5. --A man with long hair (Jesus?). 1Cor 11:14 contradicts Num 6:5, 1Sam 1:11, Jug 13:5. --those who call others fools Mat 5:22 Should we still do this stuff? --All OT laws still apply in NT. Matt 5:17-19 Doomsday Cult --Jesus/Bible claims the end is near + in our past Mark9:1 Mat16:27-28 Luke 9:26-27 Luke 21:32 Mat 24:34 John 5:25-29 James 5:8 1John 2:18 1Pet 4:7 Mal 4 Family and Political Values -- Jesus says to hate/abandon your family Luke 14:26, Mat 10:35-36, Mat 19:29. --Jesus says to call no man on earth your father. Mat 23:9 --Jesus says to honor your parents. Mat 19:19. --No families in heaven. Mark 12:25. --Don't marry 1cor7:1,8,27, Remarry Mat 5:32 --Jesus/NT says to pay taxes and obey the government. Rom 13:1-7, 2Peter 2:10, Mat 22:17-21, Mark 12:17, Luke 20:25. --Jesus is against public prayer. Mat 6:5-6. --Rich can't be Christian. Matt 19:24. --Give all to poor. Luke 18:22. --Lot impregnates his daughters after God kills his wife, then honored. Gen 19. 2Peter 2:7 --a thing is not alive until breathing. Gen 2:7. --Punishment for killing fetus is fine Ex 21,22-25. --Women are worth less and should submit Eph5:22-24, Col 3:18, 1Cor 11:5-10, 14:34-35. --Become eunuchs (castrated) Mat 19:12 --Sodom not destroyed for homosexuality, not listening to Jesus=greater sin than Sodom's. Ez16:49-5, Luke 10:10-12. --Gay David?1Sam18:1-4,20:3-4,7,41, 2Sam1:25-26 --God makes people gay. Rom 1:26-28. Mythical Creatures. --Giants. Gen 6:4, 1Sam. 17:4, Num 13:33. --Ghosts 1Sam 28:8:20 --Demons. Luke 11:14. -- Leviathans. Isaiah 27:1, Job 41:1. -- Dragons. (Revelations). -- Angels. Mat 28:2, Gen 19. --Unicorns. Isaiah 34:7.- --Witches/Mediums Ex22:18 Mic5:12 1Sam28:8-20 --Sorcerers. Ex 7:22, Ex 8:7, Ex 8:18. --Talking Donkeys. Num 23:23-30 -- UFOs. Gen 6:4, 2Kings 2:11, Ezek 10 Super Powers and Magic --A true Christian should be baptized, have faith, cast out demons, speak in tongues, take up serpents, be able to heal the sick, and be completely immune to any poison. Mark 16:16-18. --A true Christian can perform greater miracles than Jesus. John 14:12. --Christians can move mountains and trees by command. Mat 17:20, 21:21 Mark 11:23 Luke 17:6 --Whatever a man asks of God he will receive Mat 7:7 --all things are possible with God. Mat 19:26. --God has trouble overcoming iron chariots. Judges 1:19. --Jesus uses magic spells. Mark 6:4-5, 7:33-35, Mark 8:23-25. --Jesus had limited powers. Mark 6:5 --Sorcerers can do the same magic stuff God does. Ex 7:22, Ex 8:7. --Apollonius is just like a Jesus. Science. --7 days, firmament, plant (before the sun), sea creatures, birds, land animals, man and woman together, Gen 1. --1 day, man, plants, all other creatures, woman, knowledge of good and evil given only to a tree at first, flaming sword Gen 2. --7,000 year old earth. --The earth is flat. Mat 4:5-8, Luke 4:5, Isaiah 11:12, Rev 7:1, Dan 4:10-11 --The sun moves around a stationary Earth and the moon has its own light. Isaiah 13:10, Psalm 19:4-5, 1Sam 2:8, 1Chr 16:30, Psalm 96:10, Psalm 104:5. -- Pi = 3. 2Chron 4:2, 1King7:23. --Flood--rainbow Gen9:13, 7 (Gen 7:2) or 2 (Gen 6:19 7:8,9,15) of each animal, lasted 40 (Gen 7:17) or 150 (7:24, 8:3) days, salinity+fish, Australia's animals,deadly parasites, dinosaurs, size+time+feed problem. -- Tower of Bable Linguistics Gen 11. Jesus' Birth --Jesus was conceived by the holy spirit and was a product of virgin birth. Mat 1:18-21 --Jesus was conceived by the seed of David according to the flesh. Rom 1:3 --Heli was the paternal grandfather of Jesus Luke 3:23 --Jacob was the paternal grandfather of Jesus. Mat 1:16, John 4:5. Jesus on a Good Day --love your enemies. Mat 5:43-44. --golden rule Mat 7:12 Luke 6:31 --Judge not. Mat 7:1 --Consider the lilies Luke 12:27, Mat 6:28 --be like children Mat 18:3. --give anything asked of you by anyone. Luke 6:30 --turn other cheek Luke 6:29. --not against me is with me Mark 9:40 Luke 9:50 Jesus on a Bad Day --not with me is against me Mat 12:30, Luke 11:23 --accommodate the wicked and do not resist evil. Mat 5:39-45. --Kill disbeliveers (parable) Luke 19:27. --wicked get eternal torture of Hell. Mark 9:43-48. --Fig tree hatred. Mark 11:13-14,20. contradicts Mat 21:19-20 --Jesus came to cause strife. Luke 12:51-53, Mat 10:34. -- Jesus says to hate/abandon your family Luke 14:26, Mat 10:35-36, Mat 19:29. --Jesus threatens to kill children Rev 2:23 Seeing God/Jesus --no one has seen God. John 1:18. --Jacob saw God's face. Gen 32:30. --Moses saw his backside. Ex 33:23. --God has dinner with Abraham. Gen 18. --Paul never met Jesus 2Cor 12, Gal 1:11-12 Hopeful Plagiarisms --Jesus + Elijah do the same thing in the same words. 1Kings 17, Luke 7. --Luke + Elijah do the same thing in same words. Ezek 1:1,4:9,4:14, Acts10:11-14 Miscellaneous Contradictions --God will punish son for father's crimes Ex 20:5 --God won't punish son for father's crimes. Ezek 18:20. --Jesus' last words all different. Mat 27:46, Luke 23:46, John 19:30. --Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James go to tomb, find guards and boulder which move after earthquake. One flying angel on boulder tells what happened. Mat 28 --Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome go to tomb, find no guards or boulder and one young man in tomb tell what happened. But women told no one. Mark 16 --Mary Magdalene, Mary mother of James, Joanna, and some other women go to tomb, and two men in the tomb tell what happened. Luke 24 --Mary goes to the tomb to find nothing, she tells the disciples someone stole body so they go back and again find nothing. The disciples then leave and Jesus appears to tell Mary what happened. John 20 ----older versions of Mark end at Mark 16:8 without anyone seeing the risen Christ. -- Earth will exist forever Eccl 1:4. --Earth will end in Armageddon 2Pet 3:10 --Judas fell and burst open. Act 1:18-19. --Judas hung himself. Mat 27-3:10. --Jesus carries his own cross. John 19:17. --Simon carries Jesus' cross. Mark 15:21-22. --Wisdom is good Prov 3:13, 4:7 --Wisdom is bad 1Cor 1:19 Eccl 1:18 --God had one son 1John 4:9 --God had many sons Gen 6:2,4 Job 1:6, 2:1 Miscellaneous Contradictions Continued --No author was at Jesus' trial yet narrative fabricated to fit OT. Mark 14:50. --Jesus crucified at 9:00am (3rd hour Rom) on Passover. Mark 15:1,25 14:1 --Jesus crucified noon (6th hour Rom) day before Passover. John 19:14. --Virgin birth and the baptism. God and Evil --God admits He created evil. Isaiah 45:7 Amos 3:6 --God sends Satan to ruin Job's life. Job 2:1-7. --God hardens Pharaoh's heart. Ex 9:12, 10:1,20,27, 11:10, 14:8. --God commands/supports slavery. Lev 25:44-46, Ex 21:2-8, Eph 6:5, Col 3:22, Gen 9:25. --Anti women. 1Cor 14:34, 1Tim 2:9-14, Gen 5:16. --rape rules: Deut 22:23-29, in city man+woman die; in country only man dies; if woman not married then man pays 50 shekels, and they wed. --Anti Jew. 1Thes 2:14,15, Titus 1:10 --Anti gay. Lev 18:22, Rom 1:26-28, 1Cor 6:9-11, 1Tim 1:10, Jude 7, Gen 19. --God favors neither good nor evil. Mat 5:45. --God created some people predestined to go to hell Rom 8:29-30, Jude 1:4, Mat 7:13-14. --God admits to deceit. 1Kings 22:23. Is 6:10. --Jesus admits to deceit (reason for parables). 2Thess 2:11-12, Mark 4:10-12, Mat 13:10-11 --God sends bears to kill children. 2Kings 2:24. --God commands the killing of babies Num 31:17, Deut 20:13, Psalm 137:9, Lev 26:29, Num 31:17. --Jesus threatens to kill children for mother's crime Rev 2:23 --God/Jesus hate. Rom 9:13, Rev 2:6, Psalm 5:5 --don't associate with people who have different opinions. 2John 1:10-11. 2Cor 6:14-17 --Incestuous Lot revered. 2Peter 2:7 (bribes and threats--heaven and hell) The simple believes every word but the prudent considers well his every step. Prov 14:15
liquidsilver: For one so interested in truth, you're quick to push aside the notion of Christ without much proof to support your "myth" theory. As far as i've found, there exsists non-Biblical records of Jesus Christ the man, who claimed to be God incarnate. His followers believed to the point of death for Him, and I can't imagine that many people dying for a myth. How do you refute that? ************* M*W: I WAS a believer in God, Christ and Christianity, until I found out the truth that it was all a lie! That process took several years and was an ongoing process, even to this day. There is more evidence to prove the non-existence of Jesus and of God since there is no evidence to prove their existence. Those non-Biblical records you speak of were proven to be forgeries. At the very most, even considering they were NOT forgeries, they would only refer to one Jesus being a wise man (teacher or Rabbi), but not a god. Jesus never wrote anything in his lifetime. Nothing has ever been found. What was written ABOUT him was written by Paul who never knew him. Even the gospel writers lived after the time of Jesus, and they were influenced by Paul's writings. Jesus never claimed to be god. The Bible refutes this. Please name the people who died for Jesus. If you're referring to James, the brother of Jesus and Stephen, they died because of Paul. Paul, the Antichrist, wrote most of the New Testament, and that's what Christians believe! (But don't tell them they're following the Antichrist. They won't believe you!)
And just to keep it out in the open - here is the message I just sent privately to Harry in response to his desire to chat privately: We can send private messages Harry, but we should use Sciforums messaging feature since I'm a bit leary of giving out my email address, since I suspect you may simply want to witness to me -- and I promise, you've nothing new to say. I used to witness to folks myself! I was part of a major Christian performance group that traveled around Europe witnessing to folks. I was a 'reborn' and I just *knew* I was right, as I'm sure you just *know* you know the truth. Hell, I'm still a legally ordained minister! But I kept reading, and kept thinking -- and all the answers can no longer be found in just one book for me anymore. I'm a bit envious of those who can accept such simplicity - but its not how my brain works (and who GAVE me that brain? <g>). So if that is you intent, please don't bother. If your intent was more just honest conversation, without a veiled agenda, then please respond!
To Gravity, thankyou for your responce. The reason I was hopeing to speak privately was to learn more about you and learn in a more intimate manner your philosophical development. That way I don't have to waste time in gerneral discussion. I don't have the soul intention to convert you to some Happy Clappy and most sertainly the Bible is not the only book on the planet worth reading. This is not my thread to discuss everything. If you preffer to use sciforums we can use my thread Partners in Mind. Thankyou and hope to hear from you.
hi medicine woman, thanks for your reply. you make some valid arguments, however I don't understand how you come to some of your conclusions. Matthew was a follower of Christ, and left his job as a tax-collector to be with Jesus (Matt. 9:9-13). Mark may not have known Jesus, but was influenced by the preaching of Peter, who was very close to Jesus (although some say that Mark 14:51-51 refer to Mark, which would indicate he saw Jesus and saw these events first-hand). Luke was the farthest removed from Jesus, but his occupation as a physician would indicate that he would desire to be accurate in his writings. John was written by one of Jesus' closest disciples. Prove to me that God does not exist. Jesus' existence is much easier to prove. I don't know where you get your "forgery" ideas, but the new testament manuscripts are historically reliable. The copies made of each manuscript were painstakingly accurate and recorded shortly after events occured. other ancient manuscripts, such as aristotle's poetics and caesar's history of the gallic wars were copies over a thousand years after the originals, and only a few manuscripts exsist. that's a little less than the 20,000 copies of the new testament manuscripts. why don't we refute the accuracy of those documents? i see more reason to argue that than the Bible, especially the Gospels, which were written during and by the people around whom these events occured. read Luke 1:1-3, 2 Peter 1:16, 1 John 1:3, John 19:35, Luke 3:1 ... these were not fairy tales that wishful people created. these are historical facts that learned men recorded carefully. I dont' understand what you're saying here. Why would the Bible refute something that's so basic to itself? Jesus claimed to be God. (Matthew 16:13-20, Matthew 26:63-64, John 17:1-5) 11 of the 12 disciples died martyr's deaths for their beliefs ( i can name them if you want). John was the only one who died of natural causes, although he was imprisoned on the the island of Patmos for his beliefs. there are millions more throughout history who have died to preserve the message of the diety of Jesus. What do you mean "they died because of paul" ? where do you base your theory? I know it's not on the Biblical discription of the anti-christ, because Paul does not fit the discription. Please let me know your thought on this stuff. thanks.
Harry, thank you for your reply. please consider these thoughts: referring to 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12, you said God sends a delusion to those who believe the claims of the "lawless one," who could be the antichrist, although it's not certain who Paul was referring to. This pertains more, i think, to their beliefs in a man (rather than God) more than it pertains to a choice of lifestyle. God is not against punishment, especially of non-belief when truth has been revealed. In Romans 1, Paul says of some people that God "gave them over" to their sins. Why would God give people over to sin? doesn't that go against what we see as a loving, caring God? Well, what is sin? it's nothing more than separation from God. Truth has been revealed to us all, what we do with it is our choice. When we sin, we isolate ourselves from truth and from God, so what better punishment (and what more horrific punishment) could their be than for God to, while we're on this earth, allow us to live in our sin so that we're separated from Him for a time. That's hell on earth, because hell, eternally speaking, is separation and isolation from God. about your question about scientific research and God, i think they can co-exist, and i think one strengthens the other. Science continues to reveal mysteries of the earth that are so far beyond human comprehension and "chance" that it becomes harder and harder to believe that all this exsists without a Creator. chaos cannot create such perfection and intricacy. as far as cloning goes, i haven't done much research into it or thought. just up front, my idea is that creating life on our timetable and according to our own desires is wrong, it's blasphemous to think we can control creation like that, and quite dangerous to mess with such power.
To Liquidsilver, thanks for your reply. I would like to invite you to my thread Partners in Mind so we can discuss thing's in more detail. Hope to hear from you. Regard's, Harry.
Science proves God's existance. It shows his blueprints for life as we know and for life as we don't know it yet.
I couldn't agree more. The more I learn in the scientific world, the more I am completely positive there God created everything. Lets face it the universe is so complex we will never know everything especially our beginnings trillions of years ago. I don't believe that belief in religion will ever fade due to sciece....maybe the media and its disgusting themes...but not science.
Science as I see this branch of knowledge dealing with facts, is supporting the pure religion stated in the Bible. So in reaction to thread, I suggest you view science in harmony with religion.
I suggest you are an idiot. Science is the fucking antiparticle to religion. Science destroys the bible, making it look like the childishly insane ramble that it is.
