Science of Water Memory?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by KUMAR5, Nov 15, 2020.

  1. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah and not before time!
     
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  3. river

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    What I say above is true pad .
     
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  5. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    https://www.google.com/search?q=del...33j0i20i263.3423j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
    delusional:

    1. characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.
      "hospitalization for schizophrenia and delusional paranoia"
      • based on or having faulty judgement; mistaken.
        "their delusional belief in the project's merits never wavers"
     
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  7. river

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    Again pad , you can't say that the data about water memory is not scientific . ( your character assassinations have never worked on me , you know that , so why do it , is the question . You do it pad so people won't listen to me . )
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
  8. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Yes I can just as everyone can and has.

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    and have shown conclusively.......
     
  9. river

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    Not everyone has pad , less than a handful .

    There is nothing conclusively found that shows the water memory data is not scientific .
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
  10. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    http://www.sciforums.com/threads/science-of-water-memory.163739/page-12#post-3656128

    Problems with water memory[edit]
    Thermodynamics of water memory

    According to thermodynamic principles, the thermodynamic functions (such as enthalpy, entropy, etc.) of a substance are determined only by the current state of the system, in terms of its pressure, temperature, volume, etc. Included in this are the distribution of velocities, internal vibrations and rotations. The study of thermodynamics has shown that the ultimate change to a state is independent of the path to the state;[13] basically, there is no "memory" of former temperatures, pressures, etc. or dissolved substances. If water did have a memory, it would be an example of a Nobel Prize-winning concept, as it would violate current thermodynamic concepts.

    There are some forms of substances that are thermodynamically unstable or "metastable" (such as supersaturated solutions or allotropes of elements) in existence, which are prevented kinetically from approaching thermodynamic stability because of lacking a pathway. However, water has relatively weak hydrogen bonding, since the intermolecular forces (relative to covalent bonds) are easily overcome at room temperature and very short-lived.[14] Once a solute is removed from the water, the water will rapidly reach a state of equilibrium, when all evidence that the solute was ever in the water will be gone.

    Various physical properties of water can be altered by small amounts of dissolved substances; these properties are called "colligative properties", and have been explored in great detail by physical chemists. Hence, the purity of the water, including dissolved gases, is paramount in determining any physical properties. There are clusters of water molecules as well as hydronium ions, hydroxide ions and associated hydrogen bonded species of these ions; however, there is no evidence that these exist over macroscopic scales as suggested by the water memory enthusiasts. Water memory also likely violates the principle of microscopic reversibility.[15]

    Tap water of death
    One of the interesting questions surrounding the concept of water memory, is explaining how billions of people worldwide drinking out of natural and tap sources of water are not dropping dead of overdoses. One environmental watchdog group has documented over 500 chemicals in an average glass of tap water, many of which are used in homeopathic treatments.[16] The EPA of course sets maximum concentration for these chemicals in water, and over time the maximum concentration has decreased considerably. Many people consider this to be a way of making tap water safer to drink, but according to the logic of homeopathy that's actually making it worse! More dilution equals stronger effect.

    Most homeopaths seem to ignore this consequence of their theory or offer post-hoc rationalizations such as succussion being needed to "potentiate the solution".[note 2] If water truly had a memory then city tap water would be one of the most dangerous substances on the planet.[note 3] However, many others see this as a prime opportunity to make even more money. Various products and magic cleansing waters are sold over the Internet to eliminate these nefarious toxins, with prices potentially exceeding a thousand dollars.[17][18]

    The far more parsimonious explanation is that water does not have a memory and that the well-established physical laws involving dilutions are true. But this will never stop a True Believer.

    Beer prove[edit]
    If your friends insist on water memory, next time you have a drink give them the emptied beer or wine bottles filled with water. They'll be drunk in no time…

    Better yet, since "Like cures like," you should drink that water, since it ought to sober you right up!

    More questions coming your way[edit]
    So if water has memory, does beer have memory? How about tea, or coffee? And is it possible that milk also has memory? Oh, how about pee then; does it have memory too? I mean, the list could go on and on.

    Next, since water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen, is it hydrogen that keeps the so called memory or oxygen? And if, for the sake of the argument, it is the hydrogen element that is keeping this memory, so how about all other molecules containing hydrogen? Do they have memory too? E.g., Does H2S have memory too?

    Last but not least, (and I know this is stupid, but hey, this whole thing is batshit crazy, right?) if water has memory, does water dream too?
     
  11. river

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    What of oxygen ?

    Highlighted

    Have you looked into it ?
     
  12. river

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    The Majority Being Chemicals and Pharmaceuticals .
     
  13. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Umm, Oxygen is required for all oxidisation and combines with many other substances. So?
    Only reputable links river. You see like you, I havn't the scientific equipement nor the education like you, nor the time like you, to investigate those reputable links river....but unlike you, also I don't go and pretend I know more then I do and commence to make unsubstantiated and unsupported claims, as you obviously do on all things mainstream.
    If this thread had any science or evidence supporting it, it would have remained in the sciences instead of being shifted.
    Or perhaps they needed your expertise on it

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    [sorry river, only joking

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    ]
     
  14. river

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    Or perhaps they just didn't understand the science . It went " over their head " is the expression .
     
  15. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    Whole thing now got changed due to Adsorption theory. Molecular presence of active and other substances in lieu of information or memory presence of desired substances in water took water memory place. Main suspicion is how this molecular presence was not detected on varification of experiment? It can either be due to perceived bias or wrong type of dilutions are used for varification i.e. prepared in different bottles beyond 12C.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
  16. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    [QUOTE ] ="paddoboy, , water has relatively weak hydrogen bonding, since the intermolecular forces (relative to covalent bonds) are easily overcome at room temperature and very short-lived.[14] Once a solute is removed from the water, the water will rapidly reach a state of equilibrium, when all evidence that the solute was ever in the water will be gone.


    [/QUOTE]

    Only above part is important to me for the purpose of this topic. If solutes are not removed and stay permanently in water then?
     
  17. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    no river, the members that do not have you on ignore, already don't listen, due to the mountains of nonsensical claims that you have made over the years...they don't need me to tell them.
    It's total nonsense just as the links and references have said.
     
  18. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Water is water, is water, is water...hard or soft, distilled or purified, alkaline or mineral.
     
  19. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    No that will be molecules of active substsnces mixed in distilled water. Not plain tap water.
     
  20. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

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    Well it is good that you have abandoned the the 'water memory' fantasy. However, since this is a base assumption of homeopathy, that sort of kills that whole load of pseudoscience.
    Your new position is that the lower the concentration, the stronger the effect. That seems to be wrong, but on closer inspection it is completely absurd.
    That would mean that taking 100 mg of caffeine would keep you awake and decreasing the amount to 1 mg would have no effect, however decreasing the amount to 10^-6 mg would help you sleep. Absurd...
     
  21. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    Actually, I was talking about moecular or informatión presence iñ higher dilutions which was never endorssed by science community due to theoritical status of science as on date. However this got set back due to this new adsorption theory justification. Although I am not discussing about efficacy from small dose in topic because it is already well observed by homeooathic community since long back. Moreover a science theory justifuing biphasinc dose effect i.e. high dose inhibition and low dose stimulation of physiological activities in name of Hormesis already exist. Few drops vof water can awaken a person or bring a faint person in consiousness. A dot on your screen necessitates more concentration than the whole screen i.e. increased physiological activities. A hungry lion become more energetic than a lion with full stomach n feel lazy. So on...
     
  22. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Oh I drink tap water all the time. I'm not into this purified bottled water that we see all the beautiful people carrying around today. But then again, I'm an old fart!
     
  23. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    You need to differenciate between odd one and normal one. Few specific molecules in distilled water is odd one whereas plain tap water, purifiied or not, is normal one. One black spot on white paper is odd one whereas whole dark during night is normal one. Odd one, either of higher or lower side can bring odd resuts, healing and/or harming. Needle has its own importance whereas s sword has its own.
     

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